Help me understand. . . .

[ChuckElias]

My last rules-related thread generated a lot of discussion, so I'm going to try again. Somebody explain "lag time" to me in bottom-line language, please. Here's the case book explanation from 5.10.1B:

COMMENT: Timing mistakes which may be corrected are limited to those which result from the timer's neglect to stop or start the clock as specified by the rules. The rules do not permit the referee to correct situations resulting in normal reaction time of the timer which results in a "lag" in stopping the clock. By interpretation, "lag or reaction" time is limited to one second when the official's signal is heard and/or seen clearly. One second or the "reaction" time is interpreted to have elapsed from the time the signal was made until the official glanced at the clock. The additional three seconds which subsequently ran off the clock [in case 5.10.1B] is considered a timing mistake.

So what exactly are we allowed to correct and how does "glancing at the clock" fit in to this formula? Is only the "additional" three seconds correctable or is the whole 4 seconds that ran off correctable?

Does this whole mess boil down to "put back whatever you actually saw on the clock", as a fellow official told me? What's the real bottom line here?

[FrankHtown]

My understanding is that if you determine less than a second ran off the clock, you leave it alone. If you determine more than a second ran off the clock, you put it back to where you had definite knowledge of the time.

[Ref in PA]

My understanding of the rules under NFHS are that we are allow to put time back on the clock in the event the clock was started or stoped incorrectly.

Common practice is to watch a play on the court, and when a whistle blows a play dead, to glance at the clock to verify that it has stopped. Sometimes all the crew sneaks a glance, sometimes nobody glances. Most crews become more aware of the clock at the end of quarters, halves and games.

With all of that said, if the ref glances at the clock, he/she now has definite knowledge of a time when the ball was dead. If the referee then notices the clock reading differently than the time of the glance (which was after the whistle), the ref can then determine if a timing mistake was made. If the time on the clock is more than one second different than the time that was on the clock at when the glance took place, a timing error has occurred and should be corrected. If the time difference is less than or equal to one second, no correction can be made.

Stopping the Clock errors

Situation: Ref blows whistle on an oob play, and does NOT glance immediately at the clock, but does so at a later point and notices the clock running and reading 5:45. The clock operator stops the clock later and it reads 5:39. The ref estimates that the time between his/her whistle and the glance was 5 seconds. Ruling: The ref may only put time back on the clock to the point where definite knowledge was obtained or 5:45. The ref may not put the "estimated" time back on the clock also.

Situation: Same play only the clock operator stops the clock with 5:44 on the clock. Ruling: No correction can be made.

Starting the Clock errors

On an inbounds play after a made bucket by team B and a time out by team A, Team A is ready to inbound the ball after the time out along the end line. There is 0:02.1 seconds left in the period. A1 (oob) passes the ball to A2 who is oob also. The clock operator erroneously starts the clock when A2 receives the pass oob. A2 then passes the ball to A3 who is in bounds down the length of the court. The ref notices the clock started and whistles the play dead. Ruling: 2.1 seconds is put back on the clock and team A will the redo non-spot throw-in from the endline after the ref gives a lecture to the clock operator.

Same play except the horn blows signaling the end of the period instead of a referee whistle. Ruling: Same corrective action takes place.

[assignmentmaker]

Originally posted by FrankHtown
My understanding is that if you determine less than a second ran off the clock, you leave it alone. If you determine more than a second ran off the clock, you put it back to where you had definite knowledge of the time.

And if you determine that a second ran off . . . you just hope she has a happy life wherever!

[bob jenkins]

Originally posted by FrankHtown
My understanding is that if you determine less than a second ran off the clock, you leave it alone. If you determine more than a second ran off the clock, you put it back to where you had definite knowledge of the time.

I agree with Frank (and also with RefinPA -- but that was too long to quote). iirc, there are two cases that deal with this issue. FED changed one of them a couple of years ago to clarify the issue -- but it's only clear if you read both of them.

[M&M Guy]

Originally posted by Ref in PA
Starting the Clock errors

On an inbounds play after a made bucket by team B and a time out by team A, Team A is ready to inbound the ball after the time out along the end line. There is 0:02.1 seconds left in the period. A1 (oob) passes the ball to A2 who is oob also. The clock operator erroneously starts the clock when A2 receives the pass oob. A2 then passes the ball to A3 who is in bounds down the length of the court. The ref notices the clock started and whistles the play dead. Ruling: 2.1 seconds is put back on the clock and team A will the redo non-spot throw-in from the endline after the ref gives a lecture to the clock operator.

Same play except the horn blows signaling the end of the period instead of a referee whistle. Ruling: Same corrective action takes place.

It seems to me this was a topic of much discussion a while back, especially the part about when the horn blows. Even though it sounds correct to put the time back on and go back to the endline, I seem to remember a convincing argument on putting the time back, but putting the ball in play where the error was discovered. In other words, if the horn goes off when A3 receives the pass at half-court, put 2.1 seconds on, and give the ball to A at half-court for the spot throw-in. Maybe there were a couple of other extenuating circumstances that allowed this to happen. Anyone remember why? Granted, I think I fall under the category of going back to the endline and starting over, because I think I can convince more people about "doing the right thing". But if there's clear rules backing on putting the ball at half-court, then the only way I'm going to convince anyone else is when I'm convinced myself.

But, I do agree in every case, to have that heart-to-heart talk with the timer.

[ChuckElias]

No offense, guys, but you're not helping me. I want a "bottom-line" rule to go by. My buddy told me last weekend that whatever the clock says when you look up, you can re-set it to, b/c that's definite knowledge. That's a great bottom-line rule if it's true. Is it true?

If not, what's the rule? When you look up and see the clock still running, you:

1) Put up the time that you initially saw.
2) Put up the time that you initially saw minus one second (allowing for the timer's reaction).
3) Put up the time that you initially saw plus one second, assuming (by interpretation) that one second passed before you looked up.
4) None of the above.

The fact that there are only 5 replies to this question tells me that I'm not the only one who is unclear on this point.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally posted by ChuckElias
No offense, guys, but you're not helping me. I want a "bottom-line" rule to go by. My buddy told me last weekend that whatever the clock says when you look up, you can re-set it to, b/c that's definite knowledge. That's a great bottom-line rule if it's true. Is it true?

If not, what's the rule? When you look up and see the clock still running, you:

1) Put up the time that you initially saw.
2) Put up the time that you initially saw minus one second (allowing for the timer's reaction).
3) Put up the time that you initially saw plus one second, assuming (by interpretation) that one second passed before you looked up.
4) None of the above.

The fact that there are only 5 replies to this question tells me that I'm not the only one who is unclear on this point.

If the clock runs for a second or less after you saw the time, you don't touch the time. Iow, you don't add anything on. If the clock read 5 seconds when you looked at it, and it then stops with between 4 and 5 seconds showing on it, everything is fine.That's allowed lag time.

If more than 1 second runs off the clock though, you re-set the clock back to the exact time showing on the clock when you glanced at it. Thats "definite knowledge".

Case book play 5.10.1SitD lays it out.

[Nevadaref]

Originally posted by Jurassic Referee

If the clock runs for a second or less after you saw the time, you don't touch the time. Iow, you don't add anything on. If the clock read 5 seconds when you looked at it, and it then stops with between 4 and 5 seconds showing on it, everything is fine.That's allowed lag time.

If more than 1 second runs off the clock though, you re-set the clock back to the exact time showing on the clock when you glanced at it. Thats "definite knowledge".

Case book play 5.10.1SitD lays it out.

This isn't completely correct. Why?
There is a subtlety involved which depends upon exactly when the official looks at the clock.
There are two cases:
1. The official blows the whistle, signals, AND THEN LOOKS at the clock. This is covered by 5.10.1SitB. Whatever the official sees on the clock is where it should be stopped, since "One second or the "reaction" time is interpreted to have elapsed from the time the signal was made until the official glanced at the clock." (One can argue that it takes less time for the official to look, but the NFHS says it takes one second.) So, if the clock ticks, even 1/10th of a second more here, by rule that is a timing error, and the official can have it put back. If a reset is needed, the clock is put back to the time the official saw when looked at the clock.

2. If the official blows the whistle and signals WHILE LOOKING at the clock, then ONE MORE second may legally come off from this time. This is the timer's one second of lag or reaction time. So in this case, the official can observe up to one full second of time run off and is NOT allowed by rule to put that time back. However, if he observes MORE THAN one full second tick away, a reset is needed, and the game clock is put back to whatever time the official INITIALLY observed. There is no subtraction of one second. This is covered in case 5.10.1 SitD.

Therefore, Chuck, I'd have to say that your buddy's general rule is not valid because of point #2 above. Therein the official looked up, obtained definite knowledge of the clock, saw some more time run off, but if it was 1 second or less, he is NOT ALLOWED TO RESET IT in an NFHS game.

As further evidence of this type #2 situation, I offer a play ruling from last season's interpretations of which I'm sure that you are aware. It is still posted on the NFHS website:
2004-05 NFHS Basketball Rules Interpretations
SITUATION 8: As the official calls a traveling violation, he/she properly sounds the whistle and gives the signal to stop the clock. While doing this, the official is able to see the exact time remaining in the fourth quarter. The clock shows 55 seconds remaining. The timer stops the clock: (a) at 55 seconds; (b) at 54 seconds; (c) at 53 seconds; or (d) 50 seconds. RULING: In (a) and (b), there has been no obvious timing mistake. The timer should be able to react and stop the clock in one second when the whistle is heard and/or the signal is seen. However, in (c) and (d), more than one second of time elapsed from the time the signal was given until the clock was stopped. The referee will order 55 seconds put on the clock in (c) and (d). COMMENT: By interpretation, “lag or reaction” time is limited to one second when the official’s signal is heard and/or seen clearly. The rules do not permit the referee to correct situations resulting in normal reaction time of the timer which results in a “lag” in stopping the clock. Additional time which may subsequently run off the clock (after the one second lag time) is considered a timing mistake and may be corrected. (5-10-1)

Your buddy's rule could be made workable though for the official who ALWAYS looks at the clock AFTER blowing the whistle and giving the proper signal. This would eliminate the case #2 situations, since the official would never be looking at the clock AS he is blowing the whistle.
In other words, his rule is valid for type #1 referees.
So you just need to figure out if you are a type #1 or a type #2 ref!

[bob jenkins]

Originally posted by Nevadaref

1. The official blows the whistle, signals, AND THEN LOOKS at the clock. This is covered by 5.10.1SitB. Whatever the official sees on the clock is where it should be stopped, since "One second or the "reaction" time is interpreted to have elapsed from the time the signal was made until the official glanced at the clock." (One can argue that it takes less time for the official to look, but the NFHS says it takes one second.) So, if the clock ticks, even 1/10th of a second more here, by rule that is a timing error, and the official can have it put back. If a reset is needed, the clock is put back to the time the official saw when looked at the clock.

I disagree with your interp of this case. I don't think that the NFHS is saying that *every time* you blow the whistle and then look at the clock, assume that 1 second has elapsed, so reset the clock to what you see. I think the NFHS is saying that *for the purposes of this case* assume that (at least) 1 second has elapsed, so put the time back. You might see this in the situation where no official looks at the clock, then, a while later, someone from the stands or the bench yells, "hey -- the clock is still running". Here, no additional lag time is required.

[devdog69]

Originally posted by Nevadaref

This isn't completely correct. Why?
There is a subtlety involved which depends upon exactly when the official looks at the clock.
There are two cases:
1. The official blows the whistle, signals, AND THEN LOOKS at the clock. This is covered by 5.10.1SitB. Whatever the official sees on the clock is where it should be stopped, since "One second or the "reaction" time is interpreted to have elapsed from the time the signal was made until the official glanced at the clock." (One can argue that it takes less time for the official to look, but the NFHS says it takes one second.) So, if the clock ticks, even 1/10th of a second more here, by rule that is a timing error, and the official can have it put back. If a reset is needed, the clock is put back to the time the official saw when looked at the clock.

2. If the official blows the whistle and signals WHILE LOOKING at the clock, then ONE MORE second may legally come off from this time. This is the timer's one second of lag or reaction time. So in this case, the official can observe up to one full second of time run off and is NOT allowed by rule to put that time back. However, if he observes MORE THAN one full second tick away, a reset is needed, and the game clock is put back to whatever time the official INITIALLY observed. There is no subtraction of one second. This is covered in case 5.10.1 SitD.

Therefore, Chuck, I'd have to say that your buddy's general rule is not valid because of point #2 above. Therein the official looked up, obtained definite knowledge of the clock, saw some more time run off, but if it was 1 second or less, he is NOT ALLOWED TO RESET IT in an NFHS game.

As further evidence of this type #2 situation, I offer a play ruling from last season's interpretations of which I'm sure that you are aware. It is still posted on the NFHS website:
2004-05 NFHS Basketball Rules Interpretations
SITUATION 8: As the official calls a traveling violation, he/she properly sounds the whistle and gives the signal to stop the clock. While doing this, the official is able to see the exact time remaining in the fourth quarter. The clock shows 55 seconds remaining. The timer stops the clock: (a) at 55 seconds; (b) at 54 seconds; (c) at 53 seconds; or (d) 50 seconds. RULING: In (a) and (b), there has been no obvious timing mistake. The timer should be able to react and stop the clock in one second when the whistle is heard and/or the signal is seen. However, in (c) and (d), more than one second of time elapsed from the time the signal was given until the clock was stopped. The referee will order 55 seconds put on the clock in (c) and (d). COMMENT: By interpretation, “lag or reaction” time is limited to one second when the official’s signal is heard and/or seen clearly. The rules do not permit the referee to correct situations resulting in normal reaction time of the timer which results in a “lag” in stopping the clock. Additional time which may subsequently run off the clock (after the one second lag time) is considered a timing mistake and may be corrected. (5-10-1)

Your buddy's rule could be made workable though for the official who ALWAYS looks at the clock AFTER blowing the whistle and giving the proper signal. This would eliminate the case #2 situations, since the official would never be looking at the clock AS he is blowing the whistle.
In other words, his rule is valid for type #1 referees.
So you just need to figure out if you are a type #1 or a type #2 ref!

This is the correct interpretation, imho. If I blow the whistle, look up, I am interpreting that the clock should have been able to stop in the time it took me to look up and I will put the exact time I see back on. If I happen to be looking at the clock as my partner blows the whistle and it takes less than a second to stop, I usually won't touch it. If more than a second runs off, I'm going back to the time I saw.

[ChuckElias]

Originally posted by bob jenkins
I don't think that the NFHS is saying that *every time* you blow the whistle and then look at the clock, assume that 1 second has elapsed, so reset the clock to what you see.

Then what are they saying, Bob? What's the point of including the "by interpretation, one second elapsed" language. If you're saying that it's just the interpretation in that one case, then where does that leave us?

[blindzebra]

Gee, convoluted language in a rule, who'd of thunk it?

I think what they are saying is if you have a whistle, then a glance with running time. That the interval between the whistle and the glance should be considered the second of lag time.

Under those conditions, lag time is "interpreted" and time is corrected to definite knowledge.

If whistle and definite knowledge have no interval, i.e. the official can see the clock as the whistle is blown, there is no interpretation needed. A second or less runs off, it is considered lag time, without correction.

[refTN]

I feel this is where you have to be "looking out of the top of your eyes". If you have good vision there shouldn't be a place on the floor where you can't see the clock(our assosciation you have to have a scoreboard on each end), but besides that even if I couldn't I consider the rule to mean when I look or glance at the clock and see what the time is, that is when I give it a second to lapse. Especially in late game situations we should have our level of awareness at its highest possible point, hence looking up at the clock as soon as a whistle is blown. I don't think you can give a second up before we look up because we don't have a definitive clue of what the clock really showed. Guessing has been long taken out of the equation. JMO though.

[truerookie]

Originally posted by ChuckElias
No offense, guys, but you're not helping me. I want a "bottom-line" rule to go by. My buddy told me last weekend that whatever the clock says when you look up, you can re-set it to, b/c that's definite knowledge. That's a great bottom-line rule if it's true. Is it true?

If not, what's the rule? When you look up and see the clock still running, you:

1) Put up the time that you initially saw.
2) Put up the time that you initially saw minus one second (allowing for the timer's reaction).
3) Put up the time that you initially saw plus one second, assuming (by interpretation) that one second passed before you looked up.
4) None of the above.

The fact that there are only 5 replies to this question tells me that I'm not the only one who is unclear on this point.

Chuck,I would go with 1)Put up the time that you initially saw. I interpret "lag time" as being giving the clock keeper enough time to react (one second).