I was working a Varsity Fall League last week when I had a situation arise during the game that I really didn't think was a situation until I was thinking about it on my drive home .
Player A1 makes a strong move to the hoop and throws it down on Player B . Both Teams come back down the court and Player B1 starts to post up Player A1 and he starts calling for the ball saying he has a mismatch . There is some low chatter among the two and then I clearly hear A1 say "you gotta learn to move your feet HONKY" . The ball moves around a shot is put up and I hear no more the rest of the game from either one .
I have a couple of questions :
DO I give a flagrant for use of the word HONKY?
If you think a flagrant should be called :
Does it matter if both players involved are WHITE ?
How about if both are BLACK ?
One white/one black ?

For the record everyone in the gym was WHITE and I did not give out any T's . As I said earlier I didn't even think twice about it (as far as being a flagrant) until I was driving home.

Yeah, this is a different take on a different thread...does it make any difference?

For the record...I'm with JRut on this one. Use your NFHS given judgement to actually make a judgement on whether or not the talking was of a taunting nature. If you want to kick the kid out, fine, do it...it's your judgement and your game management skills. Of course, the official that kicks this kid out for using HONKY or the "N" word, is probably the same official that "T's" up the player for hearing him say the "F" word after a missed shot.(Not loud enough for anyone else to hear but the official and the player.)
Sure...talk to the player when you get a chance...but, kick him out?...it's your call.

Finally:
IMO...it's not WHAT is said...it's HOW it is said.

BTW: If I have a situation where a player uses an obsenity loudly or in a taunting nature...I don't repeat that word to the coach...I just tell the coach the player used an obsenity. Unless I have to write a report that wants the exact verbage...why repeat the obsenity?

No one uses Honkey anymore.
 

What if all the players are white and one teammate calls another "white trash?" What if a white player calls another white player a "wigga?" What if the word "cracker" is used?

There are a lot of words that are not so obvious. Are you going to get upset if a white player called person of color "boy?"

The rule says "inappropriate language," not just the most obvious racial terms. I would bet that many here do not even know the many slang words or their meaning to even penalize it.

Peace

Oh of course....

Why even ask the question? It's obvious that your mind is already made up and closed anyway.

Sure...just as I would if a white player called a "person of color" the "N" word.
Just as I would if a "person of color" called a white player "Cracker, Honky, wigga, etc,.
Why? Because that, IMO, is taunting!

Is it taunting for a black player to call another black player the "N" word?
Is it taunting for a white player to call another white player "Cracker"?
IMO...Not necessarily.

While the word alone may be offensive to you as an official...I don't believe it is racial if directed toward the same race.
Therefore, I treat the offensive word just as I would any other offensive word...was it directed toward the opponent in a way that is taunting...or was it just a way one brother talks to another on the basketball court.
Again, if you as an official do not want that type of communication between players...then let them know. Talk to them...or T em up! You make the choice.
We can sit here at our computers and philosophize, but IMO I don't think we can give a blanket answer to everyone in every gym across the nation.

Remember the original thread...it stated that everyone in the gym was of the same color. So I took it as two players of the same color using slang towards one another that again, IMO, may not be offensive to each other.

Possibly...but I'm just giving my own personal opinion on this particular subject.

I would venture to say you have a few of your own "close minded" opinions when it comes to officiating philosophies JR...so what? We can take it or leave it...just as you can my various philosophies.

Done't you think it says something about the meaning of a word when you feel it is OK to use it plainly here instead of:

N$#%ga
F*&k
S@#t
B!@#h

I think that says something right there about the weight and history the words mentioned above carry.

By the way, why is this even a discussion in a high school game? Just keep this stuff out of the game.

Tom, you beat me to it, but I had the exact same thought. The fact that you feel comfortable typing "honky", but have to resort to "the N word" tells you that these two expressions are not the same.

"Honky" isn't offensive at all to anybody, as far as I know. In fact, we kind of make fun of people who say honky; b/c they're so out of touch that they can't even find a good insult.

Clearly, the analogy on which the original post is based is flawed.

Yup, I gotta admit that I certainly am "close minded" about some subjects, Dude.

However, I think that you got into a very flawed analogy above though and made some assumptions about them that were kind of a stretch, even for me. Now, this is certainly jmo, but I just can't agree that you can put normal profanity in the same general area as racial comments. They're about as different as you can get. Personally, I'm very close minded about one of them (racial comments) and a helluva lot more open-minded about the other one (random F-shots--even if they're directed at me). I might let a kid or a coach skate under certain circumstances where profanity is involved, but no one is gonna skate if I hear a racial comment. And I don't give a damn <b>who</b> made that racial comment or who it's directed at either. I also make up my <b>own</b> mind as to whether it's a racial comment or not; I don't think that you can do it any other way. It's simply a blanket no-tolerance, no warning situation with me. And if someone wants to say "Hey, we were just funning", my reply is "That's nice. Tell it the people who are getting my report"-- because I'm putting one in, and not just to that kid's coach or AD either. If someone wants to then read that report and say "Hey, JR, you maybe were just a l'il hasty on this one and maybe wrong too", and I get my wrist slapped, well, that's OK with me too.

I wasn't really that clear above, Dude, but that's kinda where I'm coming from personally. Certainly doesn't make me right and anybody or everybody else wrong either....it is and remains just my own personal opinion.

I also hope that you didn't misconstrue what I said above from a personal standpoint. I certainly respect and value your opinions, even if I don't agree with some of them every now and then.

Re: No one uses Honkey anymore.
 

I bet you're wrong.

Re: No one uses Honkey anymore.
 

Rut,
Yer right as far as I know.
I dunno what that stuff means.
mick

Excellent point.

Again, an excellent point...but, didn't JRut "feel" comfortable typing the full "N" word out? Maybe that's what I am getting at. He might not be offended if a fellow brother said that to him...but let a cracker like me say it...whew, watch out!

I totally agree with you JR on that statement (as I usually do on most topics)...I guess I'm just struggling with whether or not certain words, said to the same race, are racial and therefore require me to issue a T or disqualify a player for taunting and/or unsportsmanlike conduct.

If he did, I didn't see it. 'Course, I don't usually read his posts anyway. ;)

N word
 

I think that there is no place in the game for either of these racial slurs. However, I don't think this issue is as black and white as our shirts. This is one of those grey areas that some of officials have. I've played basketball in high school and some small college ball. In that time I developed some relationships with my black teammates that would allow me to address them using some terms that a lot of us would probably get killed using on the street and vice versus. I think this is another common sense issue in determinng how the slur was directed. I would not whack a kid for this unless I thought it was a clear case of taunting but I would have a talk to make sure it doesn't happen again. Another part of good game management!

Re: N word
 

And how exactly do you determine <b>how</b> the slur was directed? :confused:

Do you stop play and ask the player "Hey, were you kidding or were you serious?". If he says he was kidding, you say "nevermind"? If he says that he was serious, then you nail him?

Personally, I ain't smart enough to read minds out there, so I don't even try. And I am enough of a cynic that I believe a ballplayer might just actually lie to me if it saved his butt from a T or an ejection.

Sorry, I just can't agree about about the "good game management" part imo. I think it's more a case of you guessing at the player's intentions.

Again, jmo.

I bet you're one of those guys that also calls every foul when a team is up by 30 points.

It goes back to "not what you say but how you say it".
I respect your opinion on not allowing it at all but I still think it's not that cut and dry.

Good call, Stripes33. ;)
mick

I wish this was that simple
 

If you do not like the words, penalize it any way you see fit. I do not like these words either. With all the different music, backgrounds of the people, social status, education level, community standards, tone of the words and what other officials do all play a big factor in what you do.

Tommy, if you decide to throw every kid out for using these words, not only do I understand I would support you. I just feel that what you suggest is not going to stop anyone from saying those words. All you are going to do in my opinion is cause a bigger problem that might not be understood by everyone. Especially if no one heard the comments and it was not taken offensively by the person being talked to. All I have ever said it is not a simple black and white issue. There are a lot of gray in this and will greatly be affected by the area you live, what you were taught as an official and your personal background. If I threw out every kid that used these words when no on heard them, I would lead the state in ejections. The way I have handled this situation has worked for me. What I do is probably not going to work for you. I also know a lot of Black officials that would not handle this situation like you either. I have had many conversations with officials of different colors about this.

Peace

And I'll bet that you're one of those guys that makes responses like this instead of simply answering the questions asked of him.

Don't bother responding or answering those questions.I no longer care or respect what your reply may be after your response above. Waste of my time trying to talk to you iow.

Btw, under some circumstances, yes, sometimes I do call every foul when a team is up 30 points. Sometimes I think that you have to. Silly me.

[Edited by Jurassic Referee on Sep 15th, 2005 at 04:28 PM]

I'm having a hard time picturing 2 white kids calling each other "honky" or "wigga". But, nice try at causing an epiphany.

JR, No offense implied in my posting. Just trying to make a point.

It is very clear to me that there are many here have never talked to teenagers outside of officiating or do not listen to any music, watch video games or watch MTV or watch a TV show geared towards teens and young adults. If you did, you would not be surprised.

Peace

To me, reading the original post, I'd have a T. I have a lot less tolerance for talk between opponents than I do between teammates. To me, given the context, it looks quite similar to having said, "You gotta move your feet, B1tch!" That gets a T in my game.
Now, the question is whether I would accept a casual tossing of the "n-word" from one black player to a black opponent. At the very least, I'd address it with the coaches at the next dead ball.
I'm not likely to have two teams that are 100% black, and I'm only slightly more likely to get two teams that are 100% white. Unfortunately, we do have to monitor this stuff.

And yes, substituting "boy" for the "n-word" will get the same penalty from me. Any term I recognize will get nailed. If I don't know what it is, I'll have to judge by tone anyway. I'm not concerned if something slips by me, but if I heare one, my conscience would force me to do something.

Busted. I'd never even heard "wigga" before. :)

That has nothing to do with the issue at hand.

Busted. I'd never even heard "wigga" before.
=============================================
Are those players on Wigan in the English Premiereship?

Rut, I would estimate we are around the same age. I'm also from the midwest. I currently work in an area where it isn't uncommon for me to have a game where everyone in the building is black. I'm a preacher's kid so I've had values instilled in me from day one. I'm in the military so I've heard and seen some of the worst things; came in contact with people from all over the united states.
USING THE "WHERE I'M FROM" LINE WILL NOT WORK WITH ME!

Tommy, I am not trying to convince you of anything. So I personally do not care "what will work with you." I have lived in this world and have family all over the place that would completely disagree with you. I live in a city where people hate one baseball team over another based on where they grew up as a child. These people here will not even support a team that has the same town on the front of their jersey. So what you are convinced of as it relates to this issue and many others is not my concern. I am a College Professor's kid that not only taught African-American Studies but ran a department for over 10 years. I got the opportunity to see many authors that talk about race speak live and in person and met some of the most dynamic people in this country. So what some guy thinks who I have never met and likely will never meet is not my concern.

Peace

Rut, I, like many others, do not care what you think either. I'm personally just tired of you always spewing negativity about one subject or another and then using that "well you can't do that where I live" bogus line. It's basketball!

It you are so learned in African-American matters, you are a prime example of the fact that book sense does not equate to common sense. It is obvious to me that other members on this board with "life experience" have a better feel for the importance of certain racial than you do without thinking one technical foul in a basketball game is not going to change the world. Sure, it will not change the world, but it will address at least that one instance of what has ignorantly became common verbage. Surely, I hope that your father would feel similar.

I thank the man upstairs for the way I was raised. I know in my heart that I'm not a racist and you helped me prove it again to myself. I dislike ignorance no matter what color it comes in. I hope you don't answer me because I'm going to pray that I won't have anything else to say to you.

Amen! The same holds true for racial, religious,ethnic or whatever discrimination.

Feel free to never read another word I write on this board.
 

I did not start either post or try to make an issue out of this. I just commented on it.

Once again Tommy, giving a technical foul in a game is not going to solve all the social ills in this country. It is not going to stop the way people talk and the way it is received. Like I said before, if a technical foul is your only way of handling this situation then give a technical foul. Dude, we do not even officiate in the same places, why would I care if that is what you do?

Well Tommy our only contact is on the internet. You do not have to ever read another thread I make. I also feel that it is ignorant if you think no one out here thinks different than you. Not sure how it is negative to talk about issues like this and to share different points of view. I guess it is bad to talk about anything that might shed some light on why people feel the way they do.

As I said before, you obviously do not listen to popular music much or pay close attention to popular culture. The "N" word is used all the time in ways that I find very unacceptable and inappropriate. I just do not feel giving an "automatic" T is going to change any of that. I feel working within communities with these kids directly will do more whether that is thru education or just being a role model. I pray to God that you understand that everyone does not come from your level of understanding or you opinion on this issue. I also find it objectionable that you have tried to paint my point of view on this as an "acceptance" of this word or the usage of the word. Not only is that very ignorant of you and completely a wrong characterization of my opinion on this and many issues.

I feel very strongly that you are taking this personally when all we are sharing is opinions and ways to handle this. No matter what issue we talk about there is no black and white here. Even in my job there are many grey areas on what to do and what is right. Not every situation is spelled out clearly and the way to do things have one avenue. I maybe your background has made you incapable to see that things outside of a narrow view.

Peace

I dont always agree with what Rutledge has to say, and I rarely post here, but I honestly think that some of you automatically turn him off whenever he speaks, and that is a mistake. I honestly think he is right about this one..You do HAVE to consider WHERE you are when you take action on this.... I've heard the "N" word used both affectionately and in hatred. (seriously) If the word is used between two opposing teams, I PROBABLY have a whistle. If its used by members of the same team who are talking to each other....that IS a different thing. This is not gonna make some of you happy, but YOUR individual standards are mostly irrelevant to the decsion as to whether to whistle or not. You SHOULD be considering the context in which the word is used. Im not saying that you relax all your standards of behavior on the court, but you do need to consider whats going on. Rutledge was correct in his comments about today's music and television. Try not to bash the messenger for the message.

Are you kidding?

<b>You're</b> telling me that <b>my</b>, and <b>every</b> other person who posts here's, individual standards are irrelevant and <b>your</b> and J.Rutledges' individual standards are relevant?

That might just rank as the most unbelievable and presumptious comment that I have ever read on this board. In <b>my</b> opinion, it is also complete and unadulterated bullsh!t too.

<b>You</b> have the right to <b>your</b> opinion and <b>your</b> individual standards. J.Rutledge has the right to <b>his</b> opinion and <b>his</b> individual standards. Neither of you, or me, or anybody else for that matter, has the right to tell <b>anybody</b> what their opinions <b>or</b> individual standards should be.

Un-freaking-believable!!

believe it..as you can see by the responses in this post...everyone has their own OPINION in this matter....sometimes you have to put your OPINION aside and officiate THEIR game...

I'm not as pissed off as JR about this comment; I just don't get it.

Daryl, if everybody has an opinion, and everybody's opinion is "mostly irrelevant" to whether or not we should blow the whistle, then what's the basis for judging whether racially-tinged phrases are unsporting?

I have a 15 year old daughter who plays volleyball and basketball. We have opened up our house and almost always have additional kids over (both boys and girls). It's not a party house but they come hang out (music, eat, shoot baskets, eat, throw a football, eat, play video games, eat, watch movies, eat, play games and sometimes eat) I prefer it this way so I have a better idea of what's going on. There are kids from 4 races that come over on a regular basis. I talked to some of them last night and to a T, none of them talk this way unless they want to fight. Shrug

Although, as I said before, on the basketball court you have kids from different backgrounds, standards, upbringing and with some, maybe language like this is more common. I think you need to look at the situation and do what you feel is best. I don't want to be the damn ref that T's a kid instantly unless he deserves it. Maybe I can help him out and just maybe he'll carry that with him for the future. I certainly don't think I can change the course of someones life with a T or a 10 word conversation but sometimes things like this help build their character.

[Edited by ChrisSportsFan on Sep 16th, 2005 at 10:14 AM]

Why does every person want to make this issue about me and what I say?

I am just one person. I am also not the only person that does not give Ts for this word automatically. I went for years and did not have to really face this issue because I worked in all white school games. I was lucky in some cases if a single Black player showed up when I was officiating anything. I am revealing what I do and what many other officials (that are my color) handle the situation. I was conflicted when I first heard the words and did not know what exactly to do. So I asked around and found that the veterans did not take this "automatic" stance that most here are suggesting and handled it similar to the way I have decided to.

I will say this again, if you feel that a T is the way to handle this situation, not only do you have that right, but the rules do not specifically say what is considered "racially insensitive" or what is "inappropriate." That judgment comes from us, not the rules. People use different speech patterns based on where they live and where they are from. I have spent some time down south over the years and heard slang terms that no one used where I was from. I have some close friends from East St. Louis area and they talk different that folks from Chicago that are of the same race. Not all of these words are obvious words that we all would identify as "inappropriate."

Peace

I'm with Rut on this this one.

Whointhehell are <b>you</b> to tell <b>anybody</b> that <b>they</b> have to put <b>their</b> opinions aside and use <b>your</b> opinion?

Am I missing something here? Did you get appointed <b>God</b> while I was out this morning?

May I respectfully suggest that you speak for <b>yourself</b>, only <b>yourself</b>, and not for any other person in the whole damn world.

There have been opinions given out in this thread that I personally don't agree with, but I would never have the unmitigated gall to tell anybody that they didn't have the right to have that opinion.

Lah freaking me!



[Edited by Jurassic Referee on Sep 16th, 2005 at 12:47 PM]

Sorry, but kids in my neighborhood do not use these expressions. On the other hand, "nigga" is a term of endearment in these parts (much to my chagrin), much they way "foo'" is a term of endearment in East LA.

I'm around kids all the time, but there aren't too many white kids in my neighborhood, mostly Hispanic and Asian kids.

And if you <b>don't</b> feel that a T is the way to handle this situation, then you <b>also</b> have that right to do so. The judgement to <b>not</b> call a T also comes from that person and not the rules. Whether anybody agrees or not with any other person's "opinion" does not change this either.

The right of each person to make his own personal judgement is sacrosanct, arizbigdawg.

And why would someone ask a question on a forum unless he or she wanted opinions?

JR, the words "inappropriate language" is a broad statement. Even what is considered "racially insensitive," is a broad statement. What might be considered insensitive or inappropriate can very from religion, class or education level. There are people that think it is not PC to refer to African-Americans as "Black."

I remember someone suggesting they would T someone for saying "God damnit," (or something of that nature) and there were many opinions on this issue. Now not sure where you are from, but that is considered "inappropriate" to some people and others do not have a problem with it the Lord's name being used in vein. I do not see the rules making a distinction specifically in any interpretation or casebook play that says any specific language is inappropriate. I am going to assume that the NF was purposely vague in order to allow areas to set their own standards and enforce or interpret these rules as they see fit. I realize the "N" word has history and is an obvious example, but there are other words that do not have the same history and mean the same thing. I have never seen any posts with multiple pages about those words. It is obvious that what someone thinks is "inappropriate" varies from place to place.

Even in my state some interpretations were given to accommodate different religious expressions that were completely outside of the NF rules. So this is always going to be a local and personal issue. And when

The bottom line is we are not going to change each other's mind on this. We do not have to answer to the same people if this takes place on either of our games. We do not even live in the same state or city. So this is all interesting for discussion purposes, it just is a very small blip on the computer screen as it relates to officiating. Most officials I know never will know this conversation took place and they will do exactly what they did before. Just like the people you know that never come here will do the same.

Peace

This really didn't have anything at all to do with me trying to change your's or anybody else's mind. I didn't post towards that end. This has to do with the right of each individual in this discussion to have their <b>own</b> opinion. Maybe I don't agree with <b>your</b> particular opinion. Big whoop! I do think that there is nowayinhell that you or anyone else should ever be <b>not</b> allowed to form, have or give out their own opinions though. I resent very much arizbigdawg or anybody else telling me, you or <b>anybody</b> else on this forum that they have to put aside <b>their</b> personal opinions and agree with <b>his</b> personal opinion.

That's where I'm coming from in this part of the discussion.

This place is about opinions and nothing else for the most part. Unless you have a rule or interpretation, all we ever talk about is opinions. Even in those discussions about rules or interpretations we give out opinion. I am not sure what we all expect from each other.

Peace

Off the top of my head...

I expect Mick to give me construction advice.

I expect JR to scour the internet & send me useful links.

I expect Chuck to provide me with hours of amusement by just being himself, only occasinally annoying me with his grammatical corrections.

I expect MTD to keep the sacred shrine to J Dallas Shirley in his attic free of cobwebs & dust.

...others are invited to add to the list.

Jurassic..at NO time did I tell you that you had to adhere to my opinion, so Ill accept your apology for that statement, and Ill put it in terms that you will be able to DISCUSS rather than ATTACK. I PERSONALLY cannot STAND "the N word" but it is NOT up to ME entirely as to how its accepted on the court because MY standards are NOT the only ones that are in the decision making process. Example..this fall at our football meeting we were told that "the N word" used between teammates WILL BE a flag, but no ejection. If it (or any other slur) is used AT AN OPPONENT, it is a flag and an EJECTION. Do I AGREE with that decision (not really), will I abide by it? Yes. THAT IS ALL IM SAYING..SOMETIMES YOU ARE FORCED TO PUT ASIDE YOUR PERSONAL PREFERENCE IN THAT PROCESS..other times you have leeway. Most of us come from different backgrounds, but all of us need to realize that OURS may not always matter.

I will repeat something I mentioned earlier. This is NOT the first time this topic has come up..why are some people ATTACKING rather than discussing? it always seems to be the same crowd..deeper issues?

I expect Rainmaker to ask questions that make me have to think way too hard...

I expect JR to post disgusting pictures of Chuck (and sometimes of me)...

I expect Dan to post something about those damn Yankees every now and then...

I expect about every 5th thread to actually be about basketball rules/interpretations...

1)I do not intend to apologize or discuss anything with you at any time.

2) Deeper issues? Now there's a very familiar tactic that's already been used on this board. If someone disagrees with you, they must be a racist. *****

[Edited by mick on Sep 16th, 2005 at 04:52 PM]

Nope not saying that at all..Im saying that for whatever reason you chose to misinterpret my post...thats all..but hey..thats your right

Racist? That is not what I took out of your exchanges with azbigdawg.

Peace

<b>"deeper issues"?</b>???

I recognize and understand code words too.

Sorry Jurassic, wrong again..the DEEPER issues I was refering to was the inability to discuss without attacking....hard to learn that way...and if you think youre too smart to learn, youre probably too dumb to live...

Bullsh*t. Go play the race card on someone else.I have no use for people like you.

JR only person playing the "race card" is you right now.

I am also will never understand what is also so wrong with mentioning race other than it makes people uncomfortable. I guess you cannot have those kinds of conversations when "certain" people cannot deal with the conversation. No that "certain" people comment is not about a group of people. I just do not feel anything should be off base because a few individuals cannot handle the discussion. If you do not like the discussion, do not participate.

Peace

"Certain people" = "it always seems to be the same crowd-<b>deeper issues?</b>" = "a <b>few</b> individuals cannot handle the discussion".

You and arizbigdawg are two of a kind. You pulled the race card out on me months ago and you've also pulled it out on more than a few people here. You just pulled it out again with your "a few individuals cannot handle the discussion" comment. Pulling out the race card is the easiest thing in the world to do when someone disagrees with you. It's also impossible to defend against it. I won't try.

I haven't been responding directly to your posts for months and I don't really know why I responded to this one. I'll try not to make the same mistake again. I will continue to participate in this forum and any discussion that I feel like. I will not continue to participate directly with you and people like you.

Fwiw, I hold both you and arizbigdawg in the same esteem.

You can have the last word now.

[Edited by Jurassic Referee on Sep 19th, 2005 at 04:13 AM]

Well JR
 

Ya know, it is not worth it. If you feel that way, you will just have to continue thinking that way.

Peace

[Edited by JRutledge on Sep 19th, 2005 at 12:09 AM]

Jurassic, I honestly have no clue what color you are, and I dont really care. I was just rying to get you to understand that there are many sides to an issue. Im honestly confused by your attacks and your categorization of me and Rutledge as the same person. Couldnt be further from the truth, probably. My politics would drive him nuts. I want to thank you, though for proving my point about other issues..it seems that you are not capable of carrying on a discussion with anyone that doesnt agree with you.