I was working a Varsity Fall League last week when I had a situation arise during the game that I really didn't think was a situation until I was thinking about it on my drive home .
Player A1 makes a strong move to the hoop and throws it down on Player B . Both Teams come back down the court and Player B1 starts to post up Player A1 and he starts calling for the ball saying he has a mismatch . There is some low chatter among the two and then I clearly hear A1 say "you gotta learn to move your feet nigg&%" . The ball moves around a shot is put up and I hear no more the rest of the game from either one .
I have a couple of questions :
DO I give a flagrant for use of the word nigg%& ?
If you think a flagrant should be called :
Does it matter if both players involved are black ?
How about if both are white ?
One white/one black ?

For the record everyone in the gym was black and I did not give out any T's . As I said earlier I didn't even think twice about it (as far as being a flagrant) until I was driving home .

Quietly tell the players they don't need to be talking to each other that way and if you hear it again assure them it will be taken care of.

Weekend, Junker is right. Don't make a big show but tell them to knock it off and if you hear it again get rid of the player. Keep in your mind that you won't make it a white/black or black/black issue. Keep it a SPORTSMANSHIP issue and a taunting issue. Some languase is inappropriate anywhere, especially in a game. We do have to be the "speech police" while on the court.

How soft are you guys. I hear ANYONE, black, white, mexican, etc., use a racial slur like that, directed AT ANOTHER PLAYER, I'll issue a T and not think twice about it. I'd have to see the situation to decide whether it warrants an ejection or not, but, it's a DEFINITE T in my mind.

I don't think this is a clear cut issue. I know Rutledge will sign on here sooner or later, and say that where he works, if you gave a flagrant T every time you heard the N-word, there wouldn't be anyone left playing. I think you really need to talk to folks in your area, and gauge from their reactions. There are a couple of coaches here I could ask, and would, if I thought I would be dealing with. Also, some refs who've been around the horn and back. I'd go by their judgment.

I am personally offended when I hear this, even if it's said by a black person to another black person. I really don't like it. But I also know that there are neighborhoods where no one thinks twice about it, and it's just part of the language. If neither coach, neither player, and none of the coaches' or players' mothers care, then I'm not going to call it.

If you and the players are the only ones who hear it, why make a headache for yourself by having to explain to the coaches why you're throwing the T? A quiet conversation will clean it up most of the time. If not, then when you do have to use the whistle, you can tell the coach that you had already talked to them about it once.

This conduct has only one penalty: a flagrant TF.

MTD, Sr.

I treat words to players that are of the same race and on the same team a lot differently than if opponents use the same words. If you ask is this a double standard, yes. Life is not fair. Does that mean I will just let it go? Of course I will not. I do not care what others do and how they handle it. If you are so worried about this word, you better watch every other word or term that can be seen as offensive. I know many white people do not know certain terms that might get their teeth knocked out and the words do not start with the letter "N."

Peace

In the sitch that Rut describes (i.e. only the two players and I have heard it, if I can, I will attempt to address the players individually and tell them that the next time costs them in a big way (yes I've threatened ejection). If, however, it is said in taunting form or threatening form and we all know the difference, that is flagrant right away. Double standard, maybe. However, I believe you have to look at each situation as it occurs. A bump is not always a foul either. Just my two cents.

Double Standard?

Here's how I handle the issue, 1) who said it - and to whom were they speaking? 2) did someone from the opposing team react?

1)team mate to team mate quiet conversation with player at dead-ball heads up to the coach about what we talked about.
2) If someone from the opposing team reacts, then your almost backed into a corner of nabbing the situation.

I have told many players to "knock it off" or gave them a mine lecture about why not to use that word on the floor or on the field.

During a football game last year (between two all Black teams), there were teammates of on team upset with each other about not playing really well. I overheard a player use the N-word towards his own teammate. I quickly got next to the huddle, raised my voice and said to this entire defensive team, "I DO NOT WANT TO HEAR THAT THAT WORD AGAIN. YOU ARE NOT AT HOME HANGING OUT WITH YOUR FRIENDS, YOU ARE IN A PUBLIC PLACE AND YOU SHOULD ACT PROFESSIONAL!!" I did not hear that word again. I did a similar thing with a couple of college basketball players last year. Then the player who used the word apologized to me using that several times to me over the course of the game.

I am sorry, but I am not going to explain something to some coach that is not African-American or Black when that word does not personally affect them. That word affects me and I have more credibility to make a point. I want to send a message larger than some foul call can do during a sporting event. If these games are supposed to be the extention of the classroom, than I am going to use these moments as a teaching opportuntity rather than just punishing and no one understand or has the chance to change in the "real world."

Peace

In my opinion this has to be a technical in a high school game, because the way I read it, this is an act of taunting. You never know how this could potentially escalate between the 2 players, particularly if the game becomes a blowout. I do not work college, so I'd have to leave that to you guys who do, but in my area we have a zero tolerance mandate for unsportsmanlike conduct, so I would very likely T here to maintain control of the game.

I think what many are saying is that if it's between 2 teammates, see if you can warn but if it's to their opponent, that might require penalty. It still amazes me how many of these kids know each other from other sports or AAU or whatever. Sometimes my initial reaction is to jump in but the 2 players are laughing. Why then do I need to get involved other than to make sure fans and other teammates don't get involved and carry it over the line. I usually would tell them that others might mistake what they are saying so let's cut it out.

Come on guys. Doesn't anybody have some intestional fortitude. I don't care what the level of play is (NFHS/jr. H.S. and H.S., NCAA, FIBA, NBA/WNBA), this is a flagrant technical foul. This kind of conduct has no place in sports no matter what the sport or level of sport: amatuer or professional.

MTD, Sr.

Intestional fortitude?
 

Neither the NCAA nor the NF rulebooks say anything about any language is a flagrant foul automatically. All the rules say is it can be ruled so by if the official deems the actions to be flagrant. There is nothing that supports your position at all. NF Rule 10-3-7b says it is against the rules to use inappropriate language and gestures. It says nothing about what is inappropriate or that if used it is an ejection. NF Rule 10-3-7c says, "Baiting or taunting an opponent." Not sure a single word that neither the player is offended by (rightly or wrongly) could be considered flagrant if especially when said amongst teammates. There is not even a casebook situation that suggests anything specific.

Now I do not have a problem if you have a personal preference, but do not use the rulebook as the gauge for backing up that philosophy directly. Language changes over time and can be interpreted differently depending one what part of the country you live or even social class of the individuals talking. Things I used to say when I was a teenager are not the same things I would say today. There was a time when you could not say “B@t@h” on TV, not it is used on network TV during family sitcoms. Now that is tame compared to many slang terms used today. So I think you need to go buy what might be the standard in your area. Just do not tell me the NF, NCAA, FIBA and NBA take a stand on this word or any for that matter.

Peace

Obviously, Weekendref didn't feel it was taunting at the time.

I don't like the word and would never use it but I can see how it could be used in a non-taunting, joking way. Apparently the opponent didn't feel taunted either because, given that Weekendref didn't do anything, there was no retaliation. And there was no further confrontation.

Weekendref, I would say that you probably did just right. And that you probably did just right by thinking the situation over when all was said and done. You will be more prepared next time - perhaps a little more attentive.

But I can also side with MTD. It could also have been said in a very inappropriate manner (condemning, ridiculing, taunting) and in that context, ejection is probably very appropriate.

I hear what you are saying and I agree with you, based on the way I read the statement and my interpretation (of course I wasn't there) it seemed to me like an act of taunting, which would get a T from me. It would be flagrant only if it started a fight between the two players (don't really want to get into a legal "fighting words" debate here....). Even if it were apparant that the kids were buddies, I'd probably err on the side of the T just to prevent the same type of trash talk from happening at the other end of the floor. What happens when the player who was taunted dunks over the other player the next time down the floor and makes a similar quip? Now as an official you've started to lose control of the game, and if you T the second guy, you've essentially let the instigator off the hook. Too many things can happen, even between friends in a competitive atmosphere, penalize to prevent a future incident.

Horizon League / Great Lakes Valley Conference Men's Officiating Coordinator John Adams: Flagrant T, associated ejection, and call him before you are out of the parking lot.

[Edited by Wearin' Stripes on Sep 13th, 2005 at 11:41 AM]

You guys that aren't suggesting an immediate ejection are kidding, right?

I don't like political correctness anymore than the next guy, and I'm not going to tell anyone other than the coach what was said (unless I have to file a report), but this is a no brainer ejection (flagrant T, or whatever is necessary in Fed).

Just my two cents: I would call an unsportsmanlike technical foul but not eject. My logic is that to let it go could easily lead to a fight and I would want to maintain control of the game (this is a high school game after all and sportsmanship is a POE right?). I would do the same regardless of the color of the players involved.

Z

[Edited by zebraman on Sep 13th, 2005 at 02:44 PM]

Where do you people live?

This is a very common term of address in the streets, and with the popularity of rap has spread to middle class neighborhoods as well. Instead of calling each other fool or dawg, they say the n-word.

Teammates talking to each other is not unsportsmanlike behavior. Don't take things out of context. Use your judgment and act appropriately. That's what makes it a judgment call.

Jim, if you go back to the very first post of this thread, you will find that the players using the N-word to each other <b>weren't</b> teammates. They were <b>opponents</b>.

Is your answer still the same and is it a blanket answer to cover all circumstances?

So a player who says "Great f*****g block!" to his teammate shouldn't be T'd up?

It's a pretty common form of expression; and with the popularity of crap, I mean, rap "music" etc., etc. . .

Chuck,

I was going to make the same point. What would everyone have done had it been "You gotta move your feet assh*)3"

And that's the coach yelling it... ;)

I think I'd rather hear "gotta move your feet as@hole" than "good defense".

I don't understand how some are simply dimissing this or saying it could have just been taunting! This word has a history. Great pain has been caused as a result of this word.

I would understand it more if everyone that hasn't experienced the pain this word has caused issued a T across the board but that isn't the case.

This will get a T from me.

Tom, I have been waiting for you to provide input on this. I would definitely agree that a "T" is required. Anything less than a "T" would be ridiculous.

I agree that the word has history, but it has history with people that are white. There are also other words that I would be very offended by if someone white said them as well. It does not carry the same feelings when someone of my own race uses. I might not like the word, but it does not have the same distiction. This just goes to show that all people of color do not agree.

Peace

This thread reminds me of the George Carlin bit about how words in themselves are not bad, it's the message the speaker is trying to convey that is bad. Pretty funny bit.

If anyone has seen the movie "Coach Carter" there is a very relative segment of the movie addressing this issue. Coach Carter, in my opinion, took a very positive and informed position on this issue. At stance that I subscribe to 100%.

This is an excellent movie that is based on a true story. It transcends (sp?)basketball and addresses the societal issues that we (officials) experience all the time with our affiliation with scholastic sports. I highly recommend this movie.

PS- Don't pay attention to the refs in this movie, because they were mechanically horrible. Obvious career movie extras and not actual officials. I was griping during the movie to my wife and she got fed up with me saying that "I was the only one that would notice that"! :D

I believe this bit comes from his CD titled: "Parental Advisory-Explicit Lyrics" .... track 14.

I noticed it too. If I remember, they also had on collared shirts.

And...
 

I think a metal whistle.

Don't you hate the fact that you notice these problems in sports movies? It always takes a while for women I date to adjust to watching sports movies with me. Afterwards the comments always seem to be, "It was good, but they screwed up on......". Another recent example was all the Under Armor logos in the 1986? (I think that was the year) football game in "Friday Night Lights".

Yes, those are both correct as well...collared shirt and metal whistles with a pea!

Either they did not do all the research they should have with regard to the details or.... Jurassic Referee was the Subject Matter Consultant!!! :D :D

Hey, Junkster, if you saw Hoosiers, I was <b>that guy</b>. Grey pants with a black belt, striped <b>long-sleeve</b> (yes, I said long sleeved) broadcloth shirt with a collar. And don't you dare roll the sleeves up--gotta be buttoned at the wrist. Acme Thunderer metal whistle with maybe a rubber mouthguard if you could find one. Whatever kinda lanyard you could find at the local sporting good store or steal outa the coach's room where you dressed(:D). White gym socks and the latest white Converse hi-tops.

Ah yes....sartorial slendor.

We've come a long way, baby.

Oh come on...I bet you still wear those same gray polyester pants when you go dancin' on Friday nights!

Nope, the ones he wears now come up to under his armpits. :D

http://onelane.com/pix/u41/disp/5918.jpeg
http://newyorkguide.blogs.com/psfk/i..._man-thumb.jpg

And I'd pay handsomely for the video...

Oh come on...I bet you still wear those same gray polyester pants when you go dancin' on Friday nights! [/B][/QUOTE]Rooooocky?

Where you been, boy? We've been worried about you. There have been messages left all over the place for you-- mainly in the baseball thread. We thought that maybe you were distraught over your beloved Mariners and had done something rash- like maybe jumping off the roof over at Safeco. Of course, that still woulda left you two options: (1) learn how to fly in a <b>big</b> hurry. (2) pretend that you were a Mariner's hitter and the ball was the ground....and miss it.

Welcome back.

The official pants at that time weren't polyester. Polyester hadn't been invented yet. They were made outa goatskin iirc.

They had goats back then?

Yes, those are both correct as well...collared shirt and metal whistles with a pea!
================================================== ======
OC had a clearance sale.

It also goes to show that all people of color don't mind if others keep something negative going. Also, it is up to us to educate the young people about but I guess we all don't share the same disdain for a word that has caused our ancestors so much pain.
Look at the recent posts in this thread. People can get along, joke and do just fine without using this word. No matter what color you are, we don't need this word to communicate.
It is funny to me that Rut is either a careless official or someone who is practicing double standards. Here are some phrases that should and probably would warrant a T but I guess Rut wouldn't do anything about any of them. It is almost like when a team tries to foul at the end of the game. Sure the first, second or third might not need to be called but if they aren't, retaliation could occur and turn ugly.

Hey Rut, what would you do if someone said these things in an audible voice on the court. It doesn't matter who it is directed at.

Play some D "N**ga!"

Move your feet B*&ch

Get that S#$t out of here

Coach, get a M@#$ F!@##$ out here to guard me

Suck my D*&#$ B@#h!

If you aren't going to do it for your ancestors, do it because it is the right and consistent thing to do!

They had goats back then? [/B][/QUOTE]
Of course! Who do you think JR took to the prom? :D

Of course! Who do you think JR took to the prom? :D [/B][/QUOTE]
They had proms back then?

Gentlemen, lets get back on track here. Just because the activity involved is a sporting event is no reason that good sportsmanship, good manners, and civility are left at the arena door. The conduct described in the initial post of this thread has no place in civilized society PERIOD.

MTD, Sr.

They had proms back then? [/B][/QUOTE]
Of course. You shoulda seen JR trying to pin the corsage on the goat's dress, tho! :eek:

Of course. You shoulda seen JR trying to pin the corsage on the goat's dress, tho! :eek: [/B][/QUOTE]Goats had dresses?

Not mine!

No wonder she got named Queen of the Prom. I was soooooo proud of her. Except maybe when she ate the corsage at the end of her acceptance speech.

Guess the fishnets showed up better w/o the dress.

Tommy,

I have noticed that anytime we have this discussion you seemed to be very emotional and take it very personally when someone of color does not agree with you on this. If I have learned anything in my years on this earth is how different all people are and that includes in our own community.

We are not going to agree on this Tommy. Let us all just move on. Giving Ts are not going to make this go away.

Peace

(Yes I changed what I said)

[Edited by JRutledge on Sep 14th, 2005 at 10:58 PM]

Either they did not do all the research they should have with regard to the details or.... Jurassic Referee was the Subject Matter Consultant!!! :D :D [/B][/QUOTE]Hey, Junkster, if you saw Hoosiers, I was <b>that guy</b>. Grey pants with a black belt, striped <b>long-sleeve</b> (yes, I said long sleeved) broadcloth shirt with a collar. And don't you dare roll the sleeves up--gotta be buttoned at the wrist. Acme Thunderer metal whistle with maybe a rubber mouthguard if you could find one. Whatever kinda lanyard you could find at the local sporting good store or steal outa the coach's room where you dressed(:D). White gym socks and the latest white Converse hi-tops.

Ah yes....sartorial slendor.

We've come a long way, baby. [/B][/QUOTE]


JR, were you the one Hackman makes kick him out of the game ("do you have pidgeon sh*$ in your eyes") or the hot head that boots him for no reason and threatens to report him to the state? On a Hoosiers note, the newest edition of the DVD has the Milan State Championship game in the bonus features. It's kind of neat to sit and try to figure out the officials mechanics. I guess instead of studying them, I could have just asked JR.

Rooooocky?

Where you been, boy? We've been worried about you. There have been messages left all over the place for you-- mainly in the baseball thread. We thought that maybe you were distraught over your beloved Mariners and had done something rash- like maybe jumping off the roof over at Safeco. Of course, that still woulda left you two options: (1) learn how to fly in a <b>big</b> hurry. (2) pretend that you were a Mariner's hitter and the ball was the ground....and miss it.

Welcome back. [/B][/QUOTE]

Actually I was in a 6 week treatment center for depression after watching the Mariner's play in the month of July...they finally let me out, but I can't seem to stop drooling all over the place...oh well, they assure me that will fade with time...wonder which "power-hitter" we will pick up this winter - instead of getting a FRIGGING PITCHER OR TWO!! OH MY GOD - THAY ARE HORRIBLE!! I CAN'T TAKE IT ANYMORE...oops, sorry...got carried away again there...just need to remind myself that at least I'm not a Royals fan!!

PS: If Richie Sexson told Adrian Beltre "Come on...hit the ball ni**er", would Ichiro know what he meant?

PS: If Richie Sexson told Adrian Beltre "Come on...hit the ball ni**er", would Ichiro know what he meant? [/B][/QUOTE]Only if Richie Sexson speaks Japanese......

Whenever you get really depressed about the Mariners, just say to yourself "Chicago Cubs, Chicago Cubs....". Other people <b>do</b> have it worse than you! :D

Only if Richie Sexson speaks Japanese......

Whenever you get really depressed about the Mariners, just say to yourself "Chicago Cubs, Chicago Cubs....". Other people <b>do</b> have it worse than you! :D [/B][/QUOTE]

I don't know...we're 17 games out, the Cubbies are only 21 out...altho we did just sweep the Angels. Gotta find the small victories to cherish...

Can we not talk about Cubs baseball anymore? It makes me want to drive in the garage, put the door down, and leave the car running. At least if we pitch our starters 4000 innings for a couple of more seasons they'll all be hurt and we won't have the expectations of being good anymore.

If it's Mark Prior or Kerry Woods, don't you mean <b>4</b> innings?

Got room in the passenger seat for me? :rolleyes:

Hey, Rocky, watch me pull a rabbit outta my hat!

Er,... I mean, hey, Rocky, don't be makin' comparisons on games behind - if the Mariners were in the NL Central they'd be around 28 games out, well behind those Cubs. And besides, the Cardinals will have to sweep the Cubs in all 4 games this weekend just to pull even for the season series; so which team is better?

Sigh...

Yeah, I know...the comparison was made only to show that both teams suck!! But like I said before, at least we aren't the Royals fans...those poor slobs would be 46 games back of the Cards...geez, what a bunch of losers!! :)

With gas prices what they are, I'm not sure if I have enough in the tank to off us both. By the way, wasn't this thread about some sort of touchy issue?

Huh? Touchy issue? This isn't the Off-Topic thread?

Hey, Rocky, watch me pull a rabbit outta my hat!
================================================
No doubt about it. I gotta get another hat.

I believe the touchy issues have been diverted to the "H" word thread, leaving us to talk about whatever we want on this one. Works for me.

Yeah, I know...the comparison was made only to show that both teams suck!! But like I said before, at least we aren't the Royals fans...those poor slobs would be 46 games back of the Cards...geez, what a bunch of losers!!
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ +++++
But they are one WS win more than the Mariners. Go ahead. I dare you to criticize the officials.

Since we're no longer discussing the en word I'll chip in a post:

I have 2 original cells from the Rocky & Bullwinkle show signed by June Foray, the voice of rocky. Bought them for $10 each almost 20 yrs ago, maybe I'll go to ebay see what they're worth today.

Ok, let me add another en word - No Way! I am officialy jealous; that was one of my favorite cartoons growing up (er, obviously in reruns), and it's just as funny now considering some of the political stuff they threw in. However, I'm sure my wife would never let me get something like that, because it's obviously not real "art". It was a struggle getting her to agree to a purchase of an original drawing of Bugs Bunny in "The Barber of Seville" that was signed by Chuck Jones. I guess it just goes to show art is in the eyes of the beholder.

Just like words - it's all in the ears of the beholder?...

Way!

Quote:

I am officialy jealous; that was one of my favorite cartoons growing up (er, obviously in reruns), and it's just as funny now considering some of the political stuff they threw in. However, I'm sure my wife would never let me get something like that, because it's obviously not real "art". It was a struggle getting her to agree to a purchase of an original drawing of Bugs Bunny in "The Barber of Seville" that was signed by Chuck Jones. I guess it just goes to show art is in the eyes of the beholder. Just like words - it's all in the ears of the beholder?...

Oh man, you are going to love this:

I too love Rocky & Bullwinkle, but I bought those cels upon the advice of a guy I worked with at the time, who is (wait for it....) Chuck Jones' grandson! I never met the old man but the grandson's house was filled with Chuck Jones signed objects - cels, original drawings, what have you.

So here's another en word for you to think about: neener-neener!

:p

I love lamp.

Dan -

You're my new hero. :D

(Sorry, JR)

Hey, no problemo. Slappy is my hero too. Anybody who is a fan of Dominic DeNucci and Monty Python is just fine with me. And as a bonus, he's smart enough to be a Yankees fan.

Now short little diet-coke drinking, tofu eating, Redsox loving, squirrel-resembling guys.... well, that a while 'nother story.

So what about short little brown-pop drinking, steak eating, Mariner loving, pudgy chipmunk-resembling guys??? What about us...er, I mean, them????

Jeff, don't make me do some sort of intervention, man.

Well, for one, I've always had nothing but respect for the class that you bring to this board, Rocky.

http://uselessgraphics.com/itch.gif

You have a Rabbit of Seville drawing? That's almost as good as having Larry's necktie.

Hey, Dominic DeNuccii was cool, but he was nothing compared to the originator of the good guy, wannabe matinee idol <s>Guinea</s>....ooops...heh, sorry, the good guy, wannabe matinee idol G word type wrestlers, Bruno Sammartino.

Having said that...what is the air-speed velocity of an unladen swallow?

african or European? AAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHH

How do you know so much about swallows??

Jeff, don't make me do some sort of intervention, man. [/B][/QUOTE]

I'll be all right this weekend. I always like watching them beat the Cards, although it's much more satisfying when it actually means something for the Cubs. I'm not a big "moral victory" type of person. Besides, after last weekend's Cyclone win in Ames, I'm a pretty happy guy!

What is YOUR favourite colour?

I think the quote is "African or European?" "Huh? I... I don't know that AAAAAAAAHHHHHHHH?"

You guys are all sick.

Just sick, I'll tell 'ya.

:D

I gave the edited version. What is YOUR favourite colour?

Besides, after last weekend's Cyclone win in Ames, I'm a pretty happy guy!

[/B][/QUOTE]

Gas prices are down. Got room for one more?

Don't worry Adam, I'm pretty sure a top 25 team can handle UNI this weekend, although the Panthers didn't look bad destroying Drake.

May as well have played Ball State. I'm not too worried. One thing Ferentz has done is correct errors while he's been here. I doubt very much they'll have so many turnovers again (23 points off of turnovers!). While I'm disappointed that the first football game I watched with my son turned out so horribly; at least he's too young to remember. :)
Damn, the season can't start quick enough. You doing games with Terry again this year?

I'll be doing some for him. I have the beginnings of a schedule already from some other towns in the area. I'm sure we'll see each other somewhere. BTW, what's up with Iowa's schedule? Ball State and UNI? It's almost like they're trying a Nebraska or Kansas State Schedule.