<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Geneva">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Bradley Batt on 12-22-1999 11:31 AM
Exactly. Once the shot is in flight you should count it if it goes. Then you have a 1-and-1.

P.S. Your partner should "find the ball" next time.

[This message has been edited by Bradley Batt (edited December 22, 1999).]<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Please explain "find the ball"

Brad,
I asked him about that and he said the he wouldn't have called it but it was a pretty good BOX OUT (Actually a MOVE OUT). If you know what I mean.
Speaking of Boxing Out. Has enyone else noticed that Boxing Out has become more Pushing out with ones butt and when we call the foul we get the complaint "I was just boxing out."



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Ron
Seattle Officials - Women's Basketball

Same Partner, different game.
He had 3 of these calls the other night. The last one was the players 5th foul. When he went to tell the coach, she looked at him and said "Do you know what you just cost me?" He just looked at her and said, "I don't know!"
She says, "60 Pushups" I guess as she was teaching her players the finer points of "Boxing out" she said if you get called for a foul doing it this way I will give you 20 pushups. I will see her tonight. I think I'm gonna ask her if she done her pushups yet.



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Ron
Seattle Officials - Women's Basketball

Yes, and you get these weird looks for calling the foul.
I almost had a kid go ten feet on a"box out" last week, the guy who commited the foul thought he did not do anything wrong when I called the foul on hom.
If you do not call it, it gets very rough, especially in the 4A and 5A games.

[quote]Originally posted by Ron Pilo on 12-22-1999 12:21 PM
Same Partner, different game.
He had 3 of these calls the other night. The last one was the players 5th foul. When he went to tell the coach, she looked at him and said "Do you know what you just cost me?" He just looked at her and said, "I don't know!"
She says, "60 Pushups" I guess as she was teaching her players the finer points of "Boxing out" she said if you get called for a foul doing it this way I will give you 20 pushups. I will see her tonight. I think I'm gonna ask her if she done her pushups yet.

Becareful, her arms might be stronger, and she could squeeze your hand during the coaches introduction

Game last night A1 goes up for 3. While ball is in flight my partner (L) calls off ball foul on B1 under the basket. Ball goes in for three. We are in the bonus (8). How many shots are we taking?

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Ron
Seattle Officials - Women's Basketball

Count the 3 point basket, since the ball was in flight. And you are going to the line for a 1-1.

Exactly. Once the shot is in flight you should count it if it goes. Then you have a 1-and-1.

P.S. Your partner should "find the ball" next time.

[This message has been edited by Bradley Batt (edited December 22, 1999).]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Geneva">quote:</font><HR>Please explain "find the ball"<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

When you make a call you should be aware of where the ball is. For instance, you don't want to call a 3 seconds violation if a player just launched a three-pointer.

By the same token, if the offensive team just launched up a shot you might not necessarily want to call that box-out foul. You may want to wait to see if the shot goes or not. Or, if the foul is bad enough, you might want to call it anyway.

Or, conversely, the other team might have just stolen the ball. You, having no idea where the ball is or what is happening, call a foul for a kid boxing-out that had absolutely no impact on the play (other than possibly to stop a fast break by the other team).

The point is simply this: Be aware of what is going on in the game - that includes where the ball is, where your partner is, what players are trying to accomplish, etc.

I liken this to the guy that calls the bump foul as a player is 1-on-1 going by a defensive player and headed to the hoop. The player makes the layup and the referee comes out, "No shot!" and gives the ball back to them out-of-bounds. Meanwhile, I cringe.

Later,
Brad

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Geneva">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Ron Pilo on 12-22-1999 12:16 PM
Has enyone else noticed that Boxing Out has become more Pushing out with ones butt and when we call the foul we get the complaint "I was just boxing out."
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Ron -

As coaches, we definitely demand that players initiate some contact on a boxout. How do you distinguish between the legal boxout and a foul?

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Geneva">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by JoeT on 12-22-1999 02:02 PM
As coaches, we definitely demand that players initiate some contact on a boxout. How do you distinguish between the legal boxout and a foul?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Joe,

I think that the distinction comes in when the player boxing out starts to displace the other player. There is nothing wrong with "contact" - meaning that the players are touching each other as they are trying to get into a favorable position to rebound. But once pushing starts it has to be called. This could either be "backing out" when a player just keeps backing up into the player behind him, or it could be the common shove in the back (a la Dennis Rodman) in order for the player furthest away from the goal to secure the rebound.

Too many players today "box out" by reaching both arms back, grabbing the player, and backing up - that is a foul! The severity of the contact is going to determine whether there is a call or not. Also, where the ball rebounds to is going to have an impact on the play - if the rebound goes all the way out to the free throw line and you have a guy pushing a bit right under the basket it is probably a no call (but maybe a warning). If the rebound comes right to two opposing players and one pushes the other, which results in him getting the rebound you should have a foul.

Later,
Brad

JoeT

I agree with Brad. SOME contact is okay, However when we start BACKING Players out that's a foul.

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Ron
Seattle Officials - Women's Basketball

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Geneva">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Ron Pilo on 12-22-1999 03:48 PM
JoeT

I agree with Brad. SOME contact is okay, However when we start BACKING Players out that's a foul.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Ron I agree with Brad too.
The player being "blocked out"(boxed out)is entitled to his spot on the floor and if he is being moved by the other player then we will have a call. Players here (Australia) are agog when you call it and I put it down to bad coaching or no coaching in defensive techniques. If coaches spent a bit more time on teaching good defence instead of saying bad luck when a foul is called for really ugly defence then our job may get a bit easier.

Though I do agree that there are times, that you do need to see the ball for some calls, like 3 seconds in the key and player blowing past the other on the way to the basket. BUT there are somethings that need to be called no matter what the situation. The other night in a JUCO game, I had A's big man level B's big man with an elbow under the basket on a shot attempt. I as the lead called the foul, counted the 3 point shot, and then gave the ball back to A unfer the basket. After the game both coaches came up to me and said that the call was a great one, and the right one to make. If I don't make that call who knows what is going to happen later on in the game?

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Geneva">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Bradley Batt on 12-22-1999 01:15 PM
When you make a call you should be aware of where the ball is. For instance, you don't want to call a 3 seconds violation if a player just launched a three-pointer.

By the same token, if the offensive team just launched up a shot you might not necessarily want to call that box-out foul. You may want to wait to see if the shot goes or not. Or, if the foul is bad enough, you might want to call it anyway.

Or, conversely, the other team might have just stolen the ball. You, having no idea where the ball is or what is happening, call a foul for a kid boxing-out that had absolutely no impact on the play (other than possibly to stop a fast break by the other team).

The point is simply this: Be aware of what is going on in the game - that includes where the ball is, where your partner is, what players are trying to accomplish, etc.

I liken this to the guy that calls the bump foul as a player is 1-on-1 going by a defensive player and headed to the hoop. The player makes the layup and the referee comes out, "No shot!" and gives the ball back to them out-of-bounds. Meanwhile, I cringe.

Later,
Brad<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
"No shot" or "on the floor", are calls made by officials that do not know the application of continious motion .

By the way, I agree you should know where the ball is all the time, I just wanted your interpretation of finding the ball. http://www.ereferee.com/ubb/wink.gif

I absolutely agree with you Dennis.

Sometimes the foul must be called. This is why "finding the ball" is important - it will help you decide whether or not you want to make the call. If the contact is not as significant as an elbow to the head you might decide to pass on it.

Later,
Brad

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Geneva">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Richard Kreimer on 12-22-1999 10:53 PM
"No shot" or "on the floor", are calls made by officials that do not know the application of continious motion .
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

...hmm...

I've definitely waved off baskets when the shooter clearly began his shot routine after the foul or continued to dribble and score after the whistle. (I may have even said "no shot....")

There are situations where the ball goes through the hoop, but it's not continuous motion, right?

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Geneva">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by JoeT on 12-23-1999 03:39 PM
...hmm...

I've definitely waved off baskets when the shooter clearly began his shot routine after the foul or continued to dribble and score after the whistle. (I may have even said "no shot....")
If the shooter begins his shot routine, the continuos motion applies.
Dave Libbey in a camp told us this is one of the most non calls in the game.
Obviously, based on your comment, he is right. (B)

There are situations where the ball goes through the hoop, but it's not continuous motion, right?

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Geneva">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by JoeT on 12-23-1999 03:39 PM
...hmm...

I've definitely waved off baskets when the shooter clearly began his shot routine after the foul or continued to dribble and score after the whistle. (I may have even said "no shot....")

There are situations where the ball goes through the hoop, but it's not continuous motion, right?

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

If the shooter begins his shot routine, the continuos motion applies.
Dave Libbey in a camp told us this is one of the most non calls in the game.
Obviously, based on your comment, he is right. (B)

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Geneva">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Richard Kreimer on 12-23-1999 05:31 PM
If the shooter begins his shot routine, the continuos motion applies.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Does this hold true if he begins his shot routine after the whistle/call?

[quote]Originally posted by JoeT on 12-23-1999 10:14 PM
Does this hold true if he begins his shot routine after the whistle/call?

Once you blow the whistle, the ball is dead. therefore no continuous motion, but if he starts his motion, and then you put air in the whistle, why penalize him, give him the continuous motion http://www.ereferee.com/ubb/smile.gif.

I saw that someone else mentioned Dave Libbey... at one of his camp I made a call and awarded the player 2 shots. What happened was as A1 was about to jump in the air for the shot on the block, B1 jumped up and landed on him. After the game Dave asked me why I gave him 2 shots, I said that he had started his motion to shoot the ball and so he gets 2 shots. At first I thought I was wrong for doing this by the way Dave was talking to me, but then he turned to everyone else at the camp, and said that I made the right call. Just thought I would pass it on.

While I agree with you Brad that the non calling official should find the ball I think
we are being inconsistent of we do not make the push call on the box out whether the ball goes in or not. If its a foul when the
ball does not go in it has to be a foul if it does go in to. It is no wonder players get
frustrated with officials if its a foul on time and not the next. Not to mention when ever I make that call early I seem to have a much nicer game the rest of the night.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Geneva">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Ron Pilo on 12-22-1999 09:51 AM
Game last night A1 goes up for 3. While ball is in flight my partner (L) calls off ball foul on B1 under the basket. Ball goes in for three. We are in the bonus (8). How many shots are we taking?

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>