It's one thing for someone to question my judgement on a call, and another issue altogether when I'm questioned (shouted at) because someone didn't know a rule. I have heard of a "clinic" presented by officials to coaches, players, and parents explaining some rules basics and discussing how and why some calls are made or not made.

Given an opportunity, which myths would you spend time discussing?

A few for me:

If you have gone out of bounds, you cannot be the first to touch the ball after returning in bounds.

You must be "set" in order to draw a charge.

You can't move your feet or jump on a spot throw in.

Oh yeah, "over the back" is a foul.

Gotta be more than these.

S/he's reaching in.
Accidentally slapping the backboard while attempting to block a shot.
Assistant Coaches can ask refs about calls.
Diving for a loose ball and sliding.
3 seconds in the lane is an important call and refs spend alot of effort on it.
The refs really do give a ra(s)s-as(t) about who wins/loses.

I know there's more but that's what comes to mind right now.

You can't? Since when? New rule?

That a defender touching the ball does not end TC on a last to touch BC violation.

Jumping from BC, catching a pass from the FC and landing in the FC.

Go to you dictionary and look up the word myth.:D

ROFLMAO

Awww $hit, dammm i'm dumb sometimes.

Now I'm really ROFLMAO!!

Catching your own airball = travel.

Slapping the backboard during a try is GT.

Chris - I have this t-shirt that has the following words inscribed on the back: "Don't laugh - your're next"

To be honest I would not explain none, because to be honest when the heat of the battle happens they are not goign to remember, so why even explain.

I would like to teach them on how to focus on there team during the time of the game, and leave us the YOU KNOW WHAT ALONE!!!

That is what I would like to teach them.

A good friend of mine is a high school varsity coach. He had a get together about 2 weeks before i had a game of his.

We talked abt a play and I explained to him the rule, he said ok I got it.

During the game that exact play happened, my partner called it. My friend ended up getting a T because he said he has never heard of that rule before. I saw him a week later and he said, man when i got home i rememberd the you and I had talked abt it, but during the game i totally forgot abt it.

So why talk to them. Coaches will be Coaches, Fans will be Fans, Players will be players and we totally stand alone during that game.!!!

Of course that's a myth - everyone knows it's BI! :confused:

MOST MISUNDERSTOOD BASKETBALL RULES

INTERNATIONAL ASSOCIATION OF
APPROVED BASKETBALL OFFICIALS
CENTRAL CONNECTICUT BOARD # 6

NATIONAL FEDERATION OF
STATE HIGH SCHOOL ASSOCIATIONS

1) It is important to know the intent and purpose of a rule so that it may be intelligently applied in each play situation. A player of team should not be permitted an advantage which is not intended by a rule. Neither should play be permitted to develop which may lead to placing a player at a disadvantage not intended by a rule.

2) A player cannot touch the ball, rim, or net if the ball is touching the rim or is within the basket. A player cannot touch the ball if it’s in the imaginary cylinder above the rim. These are examples of basket interference. It is legal to touch the rim or the net if the ball is above the rim and not touching the rim, even if the ball is in the imaginary cylinder above the rim. It is legal to hang on the rim if a player is fouled or a player is avoiding an injury to himself or herself or another player.

3) The backboard has nothing to do with goaltending. Goaltending is contacting the ball on its downward flight, above the level of the rim, with a chance to go in. On most layups the ball is going up after it contacts the backboard. It is legal to pin the ball against the backboard if it still on the way up and not in the imaginary cylinder above the basket. Slapping the backboard is neither basket interference nor is it goaltending and points cannot be awarded. A player who strikes a backboard so forcefully that it cannot be ignored because it is an attempt to draw attention to the player, or a means of venting frustration, may be assessed a technical foul. When a player simply attempts to block a shot and accidentally slaps the backboard it is neither a violation nor is it a technical foul.

4) The front, top, sides, and bottom of the backboard are all in play. The ball cannot pass over a rectangular backboard from either direction. The back of a backboard is out of bounds as well as the its supporting structures.

5) The traveling rule is one of the most misunderstood rules in basketball. To start a dribble, the ball must be released before the pivot foot moves. On a pass or a shot, the pivot foot may be lifted, but may not return to the floor before the ball is released. During a fumble the player is not in control of the ball, and therefore, cannot be called for a traveling violation.

6) The shooter can retrieve his or her own airball if the referee considers it to be a shot attempt. The release ends team control. It is not a violation for that player to start another dribble at that point.

7) When an airborne player keeps control of an attempted shot that is blocked and is unable to release the ball and returns to the floor with it, that player has not traveled; it is a jump ball. If, in this situation, the shooter releases the ball, then this is simply a blocked shot and play continues.

8) A fumble is the accidental loss of player control when the ball is unintentionally dropped or slips from a player’s grasp. After a player has ended a dribble and fumbled the ball, that player may recover the ball without violating. Any steps taken during the recovery of a fumble are not traveling, regardless of how far the ball goes and the amount of advantage that is gained. It is always legal to recover a fumble, even at the end of a dribble, however that player cannot begin a new dribble, which would be a double dribble violation.

9) A player may slide on the floor while trying to secure a loose ball until that player’s momentum stops. At that point that player cannot attempt to get up or rollover. A player securing a ball while on the floor cannot attempt to stand up unless that player starts a dribble. A player in this situation may also pass, shoot, or call a timeout.

10) Palming or carrying is when the hand is under the ball or when ball rests in the hand. There is no restriction as to how high a player may bounce the ball, provided the ball does not come to rest in a player’s hand. Steps taken during a dribble are not traveling, including several that are sometimes taken when a high dribble takes place. It is not possible for a player to travel during a dribble.

11) A player inbounding the ball may step on, but not over the line. The player inbounding the ball must keep one foot on or over the three-foot wide designated spot. An inbounding player is allowed to jump or move one or both feet. A player inbounding the ball may move backward as far as the five-second time limit or space allows. If player moves outside the three-foot wide designated spot it is a violation, not travelling. In gymnasiums with limited space outside the sidelines and endlines, a defensive player may be asked to step back no more than three feet.

12) The defender may not break the imaginary plane during a throwin. If the defender breaks the imaginary plane during a throwin, the defender’s team will receive a warning. Any subsequent violations will result in a technical foul. If the defender contacts the ball after breaking the imaginary plane, it is a technical foul with no warning. If the defender fouls the inbounding player after breaking the imaginary plane, it is an intentional foul, with no warning.

13) The inbounding player does not have a plane restriction, but has five seconds to release the ball and it must come directly onto the court. When an inbounding player throws a ball off a player who is standing out of bounds, the player out of bounds has caused it to be out of bounds. The ball can always be passed into the backcourt during a throwin. This situation is not a backcourt violation.

14) If a player's momentum carries him or her off the court, he or she can be the first player to touch the ball after returning inbounds. That player must reenter at approximately the same spot he or she went out. That player must have something in and nothing out. It is not necessary to have both feet back inbounds.

15) If a blind screen is set on a stationary defender, the defender must be given one normal step to change direction and attempt to avoid contact. If the defender is moving, the defender gets a minimum of one step and a maximum of two steps, depending on the speed and distance of the defender.

16) The hand is part of the ball at all times. This includes holding, dribbling, passing, or even during a shot attempt. Striking the ball handler or a shooter on that player’s hand, is not a foul, no matter how loud it sounds or how much it hurts.

17) Reaching in is not a foul. The term is nowhere to be found in any rulebook. There must be contact to have a foul. The mere act of reaching in, by itself, is nothing. If contact does occur, it’s either a holding foul or an illegal use of hands foul. When a player, in order to stop the clock, does not make a legitimate play for the ball, holds, pushes or grabs away from the ball, or uses undue roughness, the foul is an intentional foul.

18) Over the back is not a foul. The term is nowhere to be found in any rulebook. There must be contact to have a foul. A taller player may often be able to get a rebound over a shorter player, even if the shorter player has good rebounding position. If the shorter player is displaced, then a pushing foul must be called.

19) A defensive player does not have to remain stationary to take a charge. A defender may turn away or duck to absorb contact, provided he or she has already established legal guarding position, which is both feet on the floor and facing the opponent. The defender can always move backwards or sideways to maintain a legal guarding position and may even have one or both feet off the floor when contact occurs. That player may legally rise vertically. If the defender is moving forward, then the contact is caused by the defender, which is a blocking foul.

20) A ten-second count continues when the defense deflects or bats the ball in the backcourt. When a dribbler is advancing the ball into the frontcourt, the ball maintains backcourt status until both feet and the ball cross the division line.

21) During a throwin, even under a team’s own basket, if the throwin is deflected, tipped, or batted by an offensive player in the frontcourt to an offensive player in the backcourt; or after a missed field goal attempt or a missed foul shot attempt, if the ball is deflected, tipped, or batted by an offensive player in the frontcourt to an offensive player in the backcourt; these are not a backcourt violations. In both cases team control, a player holding or dribbling the ball, has not yet been established.

22) During a throwin or jump ball, any player; or a defensive player, in making a steal; may legally jump from his or her frontcourt, secure control of the ball with both feet off the floor, and return to the floor with one or both feet in the backcourt. The player may make a normal landing and it makes no difference whether the first foot down is in the frontcourt or the backcourt. These three situations are not backcourt violations.

23) The closely guarded rule is in effect in frontcourt only, when a defender is within six feet of the ball handler. Up to three separate five-second counts may occur on the same ball handler, holding, dribbling, and holding. The count continues even if defenders switch. The five-second count ends when a dribbler gets his or her head and shoulders ahead of the defender.

24) The intent of the three-second rule is to not allow an offensive player to gain an advantage. Referees will not call this violation if the player is not gaining an advantage. There is no three-second count between the release of a shot and the control of a rebound, at which time a new count starts. There is no three-second count during a throwin. There is no three-second count while the ball is in the backcourt.

25) The coach may request and be granted a timeout if his or her player is holding or dribbling the ball. A player saving the ball in the air can ask for and be granted a timeout even if that player is going out of bounds. The key is does the player have definite control of the ball.

26) On free throws there is a maximum of two offensive players and four defensive players in the six designated spots. The defense must be in both bottom spots on all free throws. The shooter and all the players in the designated lane spots must wait until the ball hits rim or backboard before entering the lane. During a free throw, no opponent, including bench personnel, may disconcert the free thrower.

27) Kicking the ball is intentionally striking it with any part of the leg or foot. An unintentionally kicked ball is never illegal, regardless of how far the ball goes and who recovers it. It is also illegal to hit the ball with a fist.

28) Players may not participate while wearing jewelry. Religious medals or medical alert medals are not considered jewelry. A religious medal must be taped and worn under the uniform. A medical alert medal must be taped and may be visible. Headbands must be made of a single colored cloth. Rubber or cloth elastic bands may be used to control hair. Undershirts must be similar in color to the jersey and shall not have frayed or ragged edges. State associations may on an individual basis, allow a player to participate while wearing a head covering, if it is worn for medical or religious reasons, provided that the covering is not abrasive, hard, or dangerous, and is attached in such a way that it is highly unlikely to come off during play. Written documentation should be available.

29) Officials are not required to explain judgment calls but they may explain some calls, if approached by the head coach in a respectful manner. Officials have been instructed to call technical fouls for profanity, unsporting acts and excessive complaints or verbal abuse.

30) Officials do not make calls that decide the outcome of a game. Players commit fouls and violations; officials view those infractions, judge the action and then apply the rules of the game to what they had viewed. The rules then determine the penalty. Officials are on the court to be the only unbiased arbiters of the game. Officials are not concerned with who wins or loses, but only fairness and safety. Everyone else in that gym cares about winning, and therefore cannot look at the game objectively.

(2) Say what? Where may I find that in the NFHS rule book or case book? I thought it was only legal if the fouled player did so to avoid injury-PERIOD. Just being fouled doesn't give any player license to hang on the rim, does it?

(10) Rules citation, please, to back up that statement.

(13) Can the inbounding player legally step in bounds through the plane then?

(14) Rules citation, please, to back that statement up.

(16) Rules citation, please, to back that statement up. I was always under the impression that it WAS a foul if the defender DELIBERATELY slapped a player's hand while it was on the ball.

(24) Rules citation,please, to back that statement up. That may be how it is taught, but I've never seen that language in a rule book.

Methinks your IAABO board might be misunderstanding a few rules too.

You just never know how things are going to go over in Central Connecticut. :p

Welcome aboard, though, Billy. Soon-to-be Board 8 here.

#2, #10, #16, #24...agree with you JR

#13...disagree...plane restriction...thrower may lean/reach through the plane. It's not talking about touching.

#14...(semantics)...if the player doesn't return inbound somewhere near where they went out, that implies they didn't immediately/directly return....they ran along the baseline/sideline when they could have returned.

Isn't central CT the part that isn't covered by casinos? ;)

#7
 

As a new official, I was wanting to ask someone about #7, a blocked shot that stayed in the shooters hand as he returned to the floor. I'm glad you cleared this up (jump ball!).

Nope - that's Eastern CT, i.e. my neck of the woods.

Hmmm...let me break it down a bit:

Is central CT the part of CT that is not covered by casinos?

Check 1:

_Yes, central CT is not covered with casinos

_No, in fact central CT is just littered with the damn things like the rest of the state.

I see you point on #13, Camron. Re: #14-- If a player went OOB almost parallel to a line, then the rule just states that they then can't delay returning back in-bounds. If their momentum took them several yards along the line, they aren't required to re-trace their steps to approximately the same spot where they went OOB. They simply just come back in where they end up. If they hadda re-traced their steps, then they <b>woulda</b> been delaying their return in-bounds. That was my point. The statement "that player must re-enter at approximately the same spot he or she went out" is stating a requirement that isn't a part of the rule.

And we don't need no education.

Only 2 casinos in Connecticut - both just a few miles from each other, and both within a 40 minute drive of me.

Agree...they don't have to retrace their steps. Howver, once they gain control of their motion, the need to head back in, not take another 5 steps parallel to the OOB line then turn back in. That's what I meant by "semantics": approximately/near is open to interpretation enough to account for that. Unless they have the speed of an olympic sprinter combined with the weight of a sumo wrestler, most anyone can come to a full stop, or at least turn back towards the court, in 2-4 yards.

We agree on the application- fer sure. The problem with the semantics used though was that it could be interpreted different ways imo. That includes the wrong way. It would be much easier just to use the wording of the actual rule and just say something like "must immediately return in bounds" instead of trying to say they have to re-enter at any specific spot. That takes away any doubt about the original purpose and intent of the rule.

This might not apply to the NF, but NCAA Men's does not want a T called on a player that was fouled in the act of shooting while trying to dunk. This was on the NCAA Men's tape last year. I think that philosophy could be appropriately applied when working NF games without a specific interpretation.

Peace

I don't recall anyone saying *not* to call a T on a fouled dunker on that tape. In fact I can't remember a single play where a dunker was fouled and you know who saying "no need to T here, he was fouled".

I do recall seeing lots of dunks, each followed by instructions to T him up.

I tend to think that, if fouled during a dunk, in 99% of cases, there is an issue of safety if the shooter isn't allowed to grab the rim.

By rule, however, I'm sure there's a 1-in-100 situation where the shooter doesn't really have any need to do so. In a dunk, though (not that I've seen a whole bunch in my career), I think I'm leaning towards the safety exception unless he's hanging there for a long time.

Whatinthehell are all you people talking about? :confused:

BillyMac didn't say a damn thing about a <b>dunk</b> in his original statement. He said it is illegal to hang on the rim if a player was <b>fouled</b>. PERIOD!! That's an all-inclusive statement, folks. It covers <b>all</b> of the possible different scenarios, not just a dunk. For instance, it covers the case of a defender whacking the shooter as soon as he picked the ball up for a lay-up, with the shooter then continuing his normal motion, laying the ball off the board, and then following through and grabbing the ring and hanging from it. It could also cover a player going up for a tip, being fouled without ever touching the ball, and then grabbing the ring despite never having been put off-balance by the foul and also having nobody underneath him. According to Billy's original verbiage, it's legal to hang from the rim in that case too. Um, don't think so.

Before I tell you to shut up, let me ask 1 question:

this includes dunks too, right?

TIA.

I was simply commenting on your point response. If a player is fouled while trying to dunk, I am going to allow that player some leeway. I was not responding to you to debate every possible situation. I was responding because you said a player could not hang on the rim if fouled during a dunk. Take that up with someone else. No reason to get all hot and bothered by it. I am just giving you one possible take. You do not have to agree with my opinion.

Peace

Of course it does. Dunks are included under the same criteria as to how this rule is supposed to be administered. You can legally hang from the rim <b>only</b> if you're doing so to prevent injury. Period. Whether the player hanging from the rim was fouled or not fouled isn't really relevant to the call at all. Whether the player was dunking the ball at the time isn't relevant at all either. And whether the player was fouled <b>while</b> dunking the ball similarly ain't really relevant at all. Being fouled while dunking the ball doesn't give any ballplayer license to subsequently hang on the rim. The only judgement you have to make on this play is "Is the player hanging from the rim to prevent an injury?". Forget everything else. That was my point.

[Edited by Jurassic Referee on Aug 19th, 2005 at 04:42 AM]

That's what I thought...and that's whyinthehell we're talking about dunking.

Shut up.

That's what I thought...and that's whyinthehell we're talking about dunking.

[/B][/QUOTE]Dunks are no different than any other circumstance. If you hang on the ring after a dunk to prevent an injury, it's legal. If you hang on the ring after a dunk and you're not preventing an injury, it's a "T". Straight judgement call. I must be missing something. What's so difficult about that?

My point was, and still is, that a foul occurring isn't really a part of the criteria used to determine whether a "T" should be called or not. The <b>only</b> criteria used is "preventing an injury". <i>N'est-ce pas?</i>

Btw, couldn't help myself on the previous post. There's gotta be a l'il bit of "you" in "me" somewhere. I'm taking something to get rid of it though.

What you're missing is I agree with you completely. [/b]

Is that cheese I smell on your breath? And no, I do not want to have your rifle...hey! where you running off to??? Come back.... Might I suggest Drano?

[Edited by Dan_ref on Aug 19th, 2005 at 10:15 AM]

I'll give that a shot if the Raid doesn't work.

Then.......nevermind.

Misunderstood Rules Update
 

Thanks to the many basketball forum members, especially Jurassic Referee, for their input to my "Most Misunderstood Basketball Rules" handout.

For background purposes, this handout was prepared by me as part of a presentation I was asked to give to a college coaching basketball class. I received a lot of help from our IAABO Board #6 interpreter. Our board may use this handout at our annual preseason coaches meeting. It will be suggested that coaches make copies of this to give to their players and (especially) parents. The handout was never designed for officials, so the language is not as precise as would be expected if this handout was designed to train officials. This "Misunderstood Rules" handout was designed for coaches, players, and parents.

Here are some of my recent changes to the handout with rule book or case book citations for making, or not making, changes:

2) (Change) It is legal to hang on the rim if a player is avoiding and injury to himself or herself or another player. (Rule 10-3-4 exception). The hardest part of being a 25 year veteran official isn't the rules, it's the rule changes. At one time it was always illegal to hang on the rim, then it changed to allowing it if fouled and avoiding an injury, and now it's changed to anytime to avoid an injury. (Thanks Jurassic Referee).

10) (Change) Palming or carrying is when a player gains an advantage when the hand is under the ball or when the ball rests in the hand. (Rule 4-15-4b). The part about the "hand under the ball" is by our Board #6 interpretation. We are taught by our interpreter that if the palm of the hand is facing the ceiling and if the dribbler is gaining an advantage, it's a carry (illegal dribble). (Thanks Jurassic Referee).

13) (No Change) The inbounding player does not have a plane restriction, but has five seconds to release the ball and it must come directly onto the court. (Case Book 7.6.3). The inbounder's restrictions are explained in #11 on the handout. The defender's restrictions are explained in #12 on the handout. (Note to Jurassic Referee: An inbounder can step through the imaginery plane, as long as they don't step onto the playing court).

14) (Change) If a player's momentum carries him or her off the court, he or she can be the first player to touch the ball after returning inblounds. That player must not have left the court voluntarily and must immediately return inbounds. (Case Book 7.1.1). (Thanks Jurassic Referee).

16) (Change) The hand is part of the ball at all times. This includes holding, dribbling, passing, or even during a shot attempt. Striking a ball handler or a shooter on that player's hand that is incidental to an attempt to play the ball is not a foul, no matter how loud it sounds or how much it hurts. (Rule 4-24-2). The reference to sound is not part of the rule but is to counter coaches saying "I heard it from here". (Thanks Jurassic Referee).

24) (No Change) The intent of the three-second rule is not to allow an offensive player to gain an advantage. Referees will not call this violation if the player is not gaining an advantage. (Rule 9.7 and The Intent and Purpose of the Rules (beginning of the Rule Book).

I'm really pleased that only six of my thirty "Most Misunderstood Rules" received some form of criticism. If any members of the forum can suggest any other changes, please post them as part of the "Rules Myths" thread. I would like to finalize this handout and have it ready for coaches at our November preseason coaches meeting. Please remember that this handout is not designed for officials, but is designed to be used by coaches, players, and parents. Thanks for all your help.

[Edited by BillyMac on Aug 19th, 2005 at 09:50 PM]

Re: Misunderstood Rules Update
 

Just a few comments on this one-fwiw......

Back about 20 years or so ago, we were all taught that if the dribbler's hand went past 90 degrees while in contact with the ball, we were then supposed to automatically call palming/carrying the ball. They even had a case book play put in for a while saying this. Then....they finally took that whole concept out because they discovered that it wasn't necessarily so. There was also a lot of discussion at that time about the "hand under the ball" idea too. One of the points that was brought up was that concept also didn't cover all situations either. One of the plays mentioned was a player "tapping" the ball upwards from below during a dribble- without touching the ball a second time before it hit the floor or letting the ball come to rest while tapping it. They put R4-15-2 into the book to clarify that particular case iirr. So... to then try and simplify the call for us dummies, they just changed it to a straight official's judgement as to whether the ball actually does come to rest in the dribbler's hand(R4-15-4a&b).

Just a l'il history(if I remember right- which isn't a lock by any means), and that's why I still don't agree with your interpreter about using the "hand under the ball" part. R4-15-2 already sez that statement is wrong.

Great idea and great job making this list up. Should save you a lot of headaches.

[Edited by Jurassic Referee on Aug 19th, 2005 at 10:19 PM]

Re: Misunderstood Rules Update
 

Gotta say that I still don't agree with you on this one either. The problem is gonna arise if and when one of your officials makes a 3-second call. I'll guarantee that you're gonna have coaches screaming (1) my player wasn't gaining an advantage -and (2) their player did the exact same thing at t'other end and you never called it. Jmo but be prepared. Personally, I'd mention the parts about 3-seconds not applying when the ball is in the backcourt,stopping when team control is lost on a shot or letting a player complete a move to the basket, but you have <b>no</b> rules support to make a broad statement like using advantage/disadvantage on this one- even though we all do. The written rule is about as black-and-white as it can get, and trying to say that a vague statement in the preamble to the rules supersedes it is a heckuva stretch. Personally, I wouldn't mention at all that you're using advantage/disadvantage on any violation- even if you are. Again jmo.

[Edited by Jurassic Referee on Aug 19th, 2005 at 10:22 PM]

Another Misunderstood Update
 

Jurassic Referee has convinced me by his rule citations to change #10 on my "Most Misunderstood Rules" handout:

10) (Change) Palming or carrying is when a player gains an advantage when the ball rests in the hand. (Rule 4-15-4a,b). (Thanks to Jurassic Referee).

I still have not been convinced to change #24 on the handout:

24) (No Change) The intent of the three-second rule is not to allow an offensive player to gain an advantage. Referees will not call this violation if the player is not gaining an advantage. (Rule 9.7 and The Intent and Purpose of the Rules (beginning of the Rule Book). The Intent and Purpose of the Rules is an important part of the Rule Book and should not be ignored. This part of the Rule Book is not just a "vague statemant". It is listed at beginning of the book because all the rules are based on this philosophy (which I believe is refered to as the "Tower Philosophy"). I have summary of this philosophy as #1 on my handout:

1) (No Change) It is important to know the intent and purpose of a rule so that it may be intelligently applied in each play situation. A player of team should not be permitted an advantage which is not intended by a rule. Neither should play be permitted to develop which may lead to placing a player at a disadvantage not intended by a rule.

Basketball Forum members: Please keep those ideas coming. Originally this was edited by only myself and my Board #6 interpreter. With hundreds of active forum members commenting on this handout, we can get it perfect by the time it's passed out to coaches, players, and parents during the preseason. I'm not only looking for changes, but (as in the original "Rules Myths" post) I'm also looking for additions to the list (although I don't want to go much higher than thirty listings (so maybe I need some deletions, please comment).

I look forward to your continued help in this task.

Re: Another Misunderstood Update
 

I agree with Jurassic about describing how A/D applies to the 3-second rule. There are coaches and parents who will understand this, and see how it is used appropriately, but there are many who can't see past the end of their own noses, and won't leave you alone about how unfair you're being. I think it would be best to just not discuss it at all.

And I don't think you should discuss the Tower Philosophy, either. Most of these folks don't have any commitment to being objective, or to understanding how we do our job. To them, it always looks like their kid got whacked, and their kid never whacked anyone. How could A/D apply to that!? I'm thinking it would be best not to waste time and paper on something that isn't going to sink in.

Better to concentrate on a few basics that are easy to demonstrate and describe. Like that there's no 3-seconds when there's no team control, and so on.

Re: Another Misunderstood Update
 

You probably were a little premature in thanking me. :) I'm anal as hell some times when it comes to the rules.

Advantage/disadvantage was never meant to apply to violations-- it usually only applies to incidental physical contact occuring somewhere on the court. Iow, it either IS or ISN'T a violation. If you leave any doubt in there, it's pretty much guaranteed that your coaches/parents are gonna be doubting you every time that you do call it. And one official's concept of advantage/disadvantage is not necessarily the same as another official's idea of advantage/disadvantage- even on the same play or within the same crew. You're also asking a helluva lot of your newer officials too, if you want them to start calling violations by advantage/disadvantage. They just don't have the experience to do something like that consistently, and they sureasheck ain't gonna be calling it uniformly.

Btw, you can take the paragraph above and apply it to the "three seconds" call also that's on your list-imo. Good luck on getting uniformity on this call from all of your officials at both ends of the court. And if you don't get uniformity after laying out to your coaches/parents how it's GONNA be called, well...again, good luck to you.

And.....the violation above ISN'T for the ball coming to rest in the hand either. That's perfectly legal. You're creating more doubt for the people that this list is intended for if you write it up that way.The dribble simply ENDS if the ball comes to rest in the hand. Rule 4-15-4a&b. When that happens, the dribbler can subsequently commit one of two violations. He can travel while the ball is at rest, as per R4-43-2. He can also dribble again, which would be an illegal second dribble under R9-5. Your choice. You also have your choice of which of 2 signals to use also--i.e. #s 19 or 20.Jmo, but I think #20 is more descriptive and appropriate when letting others know why you made the call.

Again, Billy, jmo fwiw.

Re: Re: Another Misunderstood Update
 

We didn't notice.

Nah, you did a good job.

Misunderstood Carry Rule
 

Jurassic Referee has again convinced me by his rule citations to change #10 on my "Most Misunderstood Rules" handout:

10) (Change) Palming or carrying is when a player gains an advantage when the ball comes to rest in the player's hand and the player either travels with the ball or dribbles a second time. There is no restriction as to how high a player may bounce the ball, provided the ball does not come to rest in a player’s hand. Steps taken during a dribble are not traveling, including several that are sometimes taken when a high dribble takes place. It is not possible for a player to travel during a dribble. (Rule 4-15-4a,b, Rule 4-43-2, Rule 9-5). (Thanks Jurassic Referee).

Note to Jurassic Referee: I respectfully disagree with your statement "Advantage/disadvantage was never meant to apply to violations". I have read and reread "The Intent and Purpose of the Rules", which I believe is refered to as the "Tower Philosophy", which is commonly refered to as "Advantage/Disadvantage", and nowhere does it state that this philosophy is meant to apply only to fouls and is not meant to apply to violations.

Basketball Forum members: Please keep those comments coming. I'm also interested in mistakes in grammar, punctuation, spelling, and sentence structure.

[Edited by BillyMac on Aug 23rd, 2005 at 12:50 PM]

Re: Misunderstood Carry Rule
 

You misspelled "grammar" and you put a comma before a conjunction after the second-to-last item in a list. Although some people do this, the AP stylebook says no. I'm referring to the comma, not the misspelling, which is a "no" all by itself.

Re: Misunderstood Carry Rule
 

So........I take it that you're gonna train all of your officials to ignore palming if they don't happen to feel that an advantage was gained? Right? Oooo....kay.

Good luck. I'm sure that all of your coaches and fans will go along with that and applaud your officials' wisdom when they see blatant and obvious carries by their opponents ignored.

Personally, I think that you're setting yourself up for one helluva lot of grief if you disseminate statements like that to your coaches and parents. Do you really think that even <b>one</b> of them mighta even heard about something called the Tower Philosophy, let alone read it? Naw, all the coaches and parents know is that they saw an obvious palm out there and nobody called the damn thing. And to expect new or learning officials to carry out your advantage/disadvantage philosophy equally, uniformly and consistently on violations is just pie-in-the-sky wishful thinking on your part imo. They're lucky if they can recognize most violations, let alone trying to stop and think about whether they should actually call it or not.

I respectfully disagree completely with your advantage/disadvantage philosophy with regards to violations. And where are you gonna draw the line btw? Stepping oob is a violation. Gonna teach your guys to ignore that one also if they don't think an advantage was gained? Give 'em an extra step? Over and back when there's no pressure? Ten second count when there's no pressure? Ignore the thrower stepping inbounds on a throw-in? Do you plan on telling your officials to apply your advantage/disadvantage philosophy to <b>all</b> violations, or maybe just to a few that you personally think should be included?

Obviously, I ain't gonna change your mind. You know now how I feel though. You're trying to make the game a helluva lot more complicated than it it actually is, and that really ain't a good idea.

[Edited by Jurassic Referee on Aug 20th, 2005 at 09:00 PM]

Re: Re: Misunderstood Carry Rule
 

Yea, this is National Punctuation Day, isn't it?

Re: Re: Misunderstood Carry Rule
 

I've ignored it (or addressed it with a commetn rather than a whistle) when there wasn't an advantage.

For example -- A1 dribbling the ball near the division line. The defense is in a zone. A1 holds up one hand to call the play while the other hand moves slightly under the ball and the ball comes to rest. A1 continues the dribble.

Spelling
 

Note to Mark Padgett: Thanks for your help with the puctuation on item #29. You've got a keen eye for detail. I'm a poor speller and it was a toss-up for me on either "grammer" or "grammar". I was too lazy to go across the room to a dictionary and you caught me. Thanks

Re: Spelling
 

Glad to help. Just work on getting more edjumecated.

Re: Re: Re: Misunderstood Carry Rule
 

C'mon Juulie, you know that everyday is National Punctuation Day here. :D

[Edited for spelling, punctuation, and any other mistakes....]

Re: Re: Re: Misunderstood Carry Rule
 

Holy cow! National Punctuation Day has its own web site: http://www.nationalpunctuationday.com!

Help From Jurassic Referee
 

Note to Jurassic Referee: Thanks for your continued help with my "Misunderstood Rules" handout. You originally pointed out problems with five or six listings. Agreeing with you, I made some changes to three or four listings. We still can't seem to come to an agreement on two listings: #10, carrying, and #24, three-seconds, with the main part of our disagreement over the Tower Philosophy (advantage/disadvantage).

In regards to your most recent post: You stated that coaches and parents "might (have not) even heard about ... the Tower Philosophy". That's why I included this philosophy as the first listing on the handout:

1) It is important to know the intent and purpose of a rule so that it may be intelligently applied in each play situation. A player of a team should not be permitted an advantage which is not intended by a rule. Neither should play be permitted to develop which may lead to placing a player at a disadvantage not intended by a rule.

Also, you alluded to this handout being used to train officials ("Gonna teach your guys"). This handout was never intended as a training tool. I am presently not a member of the training committee. The way things work on Board #6, new candidates are instructed to call the game by the book, attending about a dozen training sessions, so that they can pass the IAABO written test. After passing the test, they attend what we call "Bread and Butter" clinics during their first two or three years on the Board where they are taught the various nuances of rules and mechanics and are exposed to the Tower Philosophy of advantage/disadvantage. All of our officials, rookies and veterans, must attend eight Board meetings during each basketball season. At these meeting our interpreter makes presentations, that often involve advantage/disadvantage principles. He does the best he can to get the over 200 officials on our Board on the same page, and he does a great job at this.

In your most recent post you alluded to the philosophy used to apply the rules on the handout as my "(personal)" philosophy. It's not. It's the philosophy of the largest IAABO Board in Connecticut, servicing about 117 boys and girls, high school and prep-school basketball programs throughout Hartford and Middlesex Counties with over 200 officials. We as a Board also service many middle school programs and some factions of the Board service recreation, travel, and CYO programs. All the coaches, players, and parents involved with these programs are exposed to the same, uniform philosopy of officiating.

Please don't give up trying to convince me about carrying, three-seconds, and advantage/disadvantage. I look forward to our professional, on-line, public discussions. But please don't turn a blind eye to the other 28 listings. Again, my purpose is to make this a "perfect" handout by our preseason coaches meeting in November.

Re: Misunderstood Rules Update
 

But this is still wrong. There are legal moves that have the hand below the ball that can give the dribbler an advantage.

The player may bat the ball upwards (with the hand on the bottom of the ball) as long as the ball is allowed to hit the floor before touching it again. The action must be a bat/tap and NOT a brief catch-throw (imagine volleyball).

It's rarely, if ever, used but legal. I've seen or heard of it being used only a couple of times ever.

Simply, the ball must come to rest in the hand to have a carry.

Recent Carry Misunderstood Rule
 

Note to Camron Rust: You may have missed the most recent changes that I made to #10 on my "Most Misunderstood Rules" handout:

10) (Recent Change) Palming or carrying is when a player gains an advantage when the ball comes to rest in the player's hand and the player either travels with the ball or dribbles a second time. There is no restriction as to how high a player may bounce the ball, provided the ball does not come to rest in a player’s hand. Steps taken during a dribble are not traveling, including several that are sometimes taken when a high dribble takes place. It is not possible for a player to travel during a dribble.

I think that this takes into consideration your concerns about this listing on my handout. I appreciate your input.

Basketball Forum members: Please keep your comments coming. I need your help to make this list a success.

Re: Recent Carry Misunderstood Rule
 

You are correct...I did miss the most recent change.

Fwiw, in another thread posted today there is an old ESPN interview linked with Ed T. Rush of the NBA's officiating staff. He was asked about "palming" in the NBA- specifically players being allowed to put their hand on the underside of the ball while dribbling. His reply was <i>"The rule book states that a player's dribble is terminated when the ball comes to rest. The position of the hand does not always relate to the ball coming to rest"</i>.

Re: Re: Re: Re: Misunderstood Carry Rule
 

I think I need to get a few of those t-shirts.

Re: Help From Jurassic Referee
 

I've seen some of the Board 6 guys work before; can't say I have any complaints.

That said, Board 8 covers more territory, with more refs, but fewer schools. Is Farmington in your territory? :p

Ed Rush On Carrying
 

Note to Jurassic Referee: Your most recent post (#6906, Ed Rush) was helpful, but please note, that thanks to your previous comments and rule citations, I have already changed #10 (Carrying) on my list so that there is no reference to the position of the hand. Your most recent post (#6906, Ed Rush) further clarified this for me.

10) (Most Recent Change) Palming or carrying is when a player gains an advantage when the ball comes to rest in the player's hand and the player either travels with the ball or dribbles a second time. There is no restriction as to how high a player may bounce the ball, provided the ball does not come to rest in a player’s hand. Steps taken during a dribble are not traveling, including several that are sometimes taken when a high dribble takes place. It is not possible for a player to travel during a dribble.

Thanks. Don't stop there. Please keep the comments coming.

Re: Ed Rush On Carrying
 

"Palming or carrying is when a player gains an advantage when the ball comes to rest in the player's hand and the player either travels with the ball or dribbles a second time."

How about palming is accelerating or decelerating the ball during a dribble with the palm rotated 90 degrees or more from the plane of the floor. (The ball coming to rest is actually a special case of this way of controlling the ball.)

Pure cross-overs and inside-out dribbles don't require the palm to be at 90 degrees, though few players show that kind of skill.

In the sense I am proposing here, 'palming' can be a violation even before it results in a travel or double dribble.

How about palming is accelerating or decelerating the ball during a dribble with the palm rotated 90 degrees or more from the plane of the floor. (The ball coming to rest is actually a special case of this way of controlling the ball.)

[/B][/QUOTE]How about finding a rules citation-- anywhere--from any ruleset- that states that any of your proposed criteria are illegal? Or relevant?

The ball coming to rest in the hand is the <ONLY</b> criteria used in the <b>RULES</b> to determine whether palming/carrying the ball has occurred. A ball accelerating or decelerating is <b>MOVING</b>; it <b>ISN'T</b> at rest!

And the angle that the palm is at has got nuthin' to do with nuthin' either.

And exactly what violation are you proposing that we call if the player doesn't travel or dribble again after the palm? 'Splain that one to me.

[Edited by Jurassic Referee on Aug 24th, 2005 at 04:10 AM]

Re: Re: Ed Rush On Carrying
 

What does acceleration have to do with anything??

frequently stated rule myth: he's turning it over Ref, he's turning it over. Can't you see that? He's turning it over everytime!

Re: Re: Re: Misunderstood Carry Rule
 

I have witnessed this first hand and it can make for some ridiculous moments. An observer told the officials right before a game to 'be aware of and clean up' the carrying violations during a game. One official, being facetious, proceeded to call a carry on A1 - who was UNGUARDED and dribbling in the backcourt - while the defenders for B were in a zone. On the ensuing inbounds play, B1 was called for carrying at halfcourt, again while unguarded. This proceeded for the rest of the half. After getting reamed about this at halftime, the first thing the official said was "Yabut, that is what you (the observer) said to do."

Re: Re: Re: Re: Misunderstood Carry Rule
 

Witnessed? I've done it! I don't understand why trainers and clinicians use "lingo" without checking to see if people understand it. When a clinician says, "Clean it up" I know I've heard that before, so I crack down and call more things. If they don't want these meaningless carries called, they need to find different language to use. Knowing what not to call comes with experience, and if that experience doesn't show on the floor, it's probably safe for the clincician to assume it's not there. So back up and use real language to communicate a real idea in a way that the ref can understand.

That's enough ranting for one day.

How about finding a rules citation-- anywhere--from any ruleset- that states that any of your proposed criteria are illegal? Or relevant?

The ball coming to rest in the hand is the <ONLY</b> criteria used in the <b>RULES</b> to determine whether palming/carrying the ball has occurred. A ball accelerating or decelerating is <b>MOVING</b>; it <b>ISN'T</b> at rest!

And the angle that the palm is at has got nuthin' to do with nuthin' either.

And exactly what violation are you proposing that we call if the player doesn't travel or dribble again after the palm? 'Splain that one to me.

[Edited by Jurassic Referee on Aug 24th, 2005 at 04:10 AM] [/B][/QUOTE]

You're being purposefully obtuse, in my view. I'm not going to explain the subtlties of physics, or orders of operation. It's a suggestion as to how to deeper understand what the simple (minded) rules don't get at.

You're being purposefully obtuse, in my view. I'm not going to explain the subtlties of physics, or orders of operation. It's a suggestion as to how to deeper understand what the simple (minded) rules don't get at. [/B][/QUOTE]Gasp! You're not gonna explain the physics of how a ball that <b>must</b> be at rest to be a called a palm (by rules definition) can also be accelerating or decelerating at the exact same time that it's completely still? Aw, c'mon...that would certainly be......entertaining.

In lieu of that, then maybe instead you can try finding a subtle rules citation somewhere that will back up your...uh... theories of relativity.

I'm also still waiting for an explanation on the violation you said you are going to call if the dribbler doesn't travel or dribble again after the palm occurred. Subtly explain the orders of operation on that one to me also, along with an accompanying relevant rules citation.

Show me the way to deeper understanding! Please! :D

Gasp! You're not gonna explain the physics of how a ball that <b>must</b> be at rest to be a called a palm (by rules definition) can also be accelerating or decelerating at the exact same time that it's completely still? Aw, c'mon...that would certainly be......entertaining.

In lieu of that, then maybe instead you can try finding a subtle rules citation somewhere that will back up your...uh... theories of relativity.

I'm also still waiting for an explanation on the violation you said you are going to call if the dribbler doesn't travel or dribble again after the palm occurred. Subtly explain the orders of operation on that one to me also, along with an accompanying relevant rules citation.

Show me the way to deeper understanding! Please! :D [/B][/QUOTE]

http://www.multiplex-sindelfingen.de/pix/popcorn.jpg

IAAPT (I am a physics teacher) and, while it is possible for an object to be accelerating while at rest, that doesn't matter here. If the ball comes to rest in my hand (i.e., isn't moving) my intended acceleration of the ball has is of no consequence - dead ball, carrying call before the ball can get moving again.

IANAPT, maybe that's why I can't understand how the ball becomes dead whenever it 'comes to rest' in a player's hand before the ball has a chance to get moving again.

It doesn't. ;)

The player may be catching the ball for all we know. They have to continue the dribble before it can be a carry. If they don't continue it, it's nothing (perhaps a travel if they move the feet after it comes to rest).

"IAAPT (I am a physics teacher)". Good! I am a physics consumer.

Reality suggests the ball comes to rest against the hand in a conventional dribble (think Cousy) - the hand stays within 90 degrees of palm facing down and no vector of support has been exerted. Beyond that, some control is being exerted on the ball. If, during the time such contact exists, 2 steps take place, you have your basic spin move that, to lots of players, coaches, officials, and fans looks like a travel. Their instinctive complaint is that control of the ball is being exerted in a way other than accelerating the ball towards the floor.

On the other hand, as it were, it's possible for a hand to be placed under the ball and the ball to be redirected in the palm while decelerating it in such a way that it never comes fully to rest relative to the palm, though sufficient control has been exerted to impress observers that palming has taken place.

This wasn't an issue when everyone kept their hand on top of the ball (think Maravich - when he put his hand on the side of the ball, he batted it). The exceptions were few and easy to identify; they were exceptions. The language of the rule is inadequate to characterize the action in the modern game, and pointing to the spot, and calling it beautyfool . . . well that's just so Jurassic.

Lah me, more undecipherable gobbledegook with nary a rules citation in sight. Again, where may I find in any rule book anything that even remotely resembles the nonsense that you have been spouting?

Btw, remember your previous statement? To wit- <font color = red>"In the sense I am proposing here, 'palming' can be a violation even before it results in a travel or double dribble"</font>? You were asked several times to explain that little gem. We're still waiting. Again, <b>WHAT</b> violation are you talking about. Please just simply cite the violation and the rules citation backing it. There's no need for more accompanying nonsensical verbiage- just tell us whatinthehell violation you're talking about.

Precisely! A carry is ALWAYS a double dribble or a travel. A few years ago, they actually removed the carry signal for this very reason. They put it back after discovering it was more clear to communicate the violation as a carry.

Revised Misunderstood Rules
 

There have been no new posts on my "Most Misunderstood Basketball Rules" on the "Rules Myths" thread for the past three days. A few basketball forum members have commented on some of the rules listed, not realizing that they had already been changed thanks to the comments of some other forum members. To clear up what has been changed and what has not been changed, I am posting the revised list under a new thread entitled "Most Misunderstood Basketball Rules". I am still looking for constructive feedback on this list, including rule or interpretation errors, additions, deletions, grammar, spelling, etc. Please keep in mind that this list will not be used to train officials, rather, it will be used to educate coaches, players, and fans. Thanks to all those basketball forum members who have helped me so far. Please keep those comments coming and please make those comments on the new "Most Misunderstood Basketball Rules" thread.