Hi all, I'm a frequent lurker but only occasional poster. I also run a website for women's basketball. I have a question about reffing in the women's games generally, and wondering if you all have any thoughts.

I'm wondering if there's a disparity between men's and women's basketball refs, and if so, what the cause is.

When I watch men's hoops (D1 and the NBA), I'm almost always impressed with the high-quality officiating. It's a treat to watch guys like Dick Bavetta and Danny Crawford do their job.

When I watch women's hoops... well, I don't get quite the same feeling. Obviously, there are great refs on our side too, and the quality is pretty good, etc. etc... but it seems like it's not as good as on the men's side.

I don't really mean this to be a political question, like women get unfair treatment, and so on. I'm just wondering what the differences are between the two reffing pools.

I remember someone saying something here awhile ago about how it's much easier to get a job reffing women's college than it is to get a job on the men's side. Is that true?

Do refs on the women's side generally have less experience? Does reffing women pay less? Is it just considered less prestigious? Is the NCAA too focused on hiring female refs, and bypassing more qualified male candidates?

I hesitate to ask this for fear that I might offend, and if you think I'm crazy, just say so. But I mean this as a serious question, and it seems like you guys are more likely to know the answer than anyone else.

The responses to this thread will offend somebody, no matter what. That's just the way society is today. Sometimes people are afraid to speak their mind today for a number of reasons.

I'll say this and leave it at that...in our association there are about 10 people who officiate women at the college level, and 1 who officiates men at the college level. At least in our geographical area, it seems that it's easier to break in on the women's side.

mechanics
 

From my general observations (<I>specifically noting individual exceptions</I>) of officials in the Great Lakes Intercollegiate Athletic Conference [GLIAC DII - Michigan to Kentucky], men's officials are more crisp with mechanics, and more professional in presence than women's officials.

And yes, the waiting period to get on the mens' staff is longer than joining the womens' staff. Same assignor for both staffs.
mick

I will give you my observations of my chapter. I do boys and girls HS officiating. On the girls side, there seems to be a little less experience and ego, but more willingness to learn. There is a perception that Boys Varsity is "where it is at". We also have refs who only do boys games for whatever reason. But we have vasity refs who do a poor job on both the boys side and girls side.

In my chapter I have observed that a female ref will be on the "fast track" to getting girls varsity games and sometimes the inexperience shows. In fact I observed this with some of the girls playoff games. Maybe that is sour grapes on my part, but I did observe a couple games (as an impartial observer - I was there to watch other refs in my chapter) which I thought the reffing was sub-par, especially for a playoff game (maybe the whole crew, one female and two males, had a bad game or maybe it is who you know).

One last thing to note, most schools pay the same for boys and girls but there are some who pay less for girls.

Now I realize this was a question for NCAA and Pro ball, but since you are asking the question, I have observe similar tendencies on the HS level.

no, I very much appreciate the insights about the HS level also, because I think probably some of the same issues run throughout the different levels. Thanks much for the response, and I'd love to hear more of what others have experienced...

Schools have to pay the same for women's and men. I think that goes back to title 9. I would not want to be the administration at any school that did not pay the same for women's as they do for men's - that is just asking for a beatdown.

As for the difference in officials, I would have to say it is a different game and that draws different types of officials. I know for myself in the HS ranks, I get more 'ampd' up for a men's game than I do for a women's game. However, I always try to remind myself that each game deserves the absolute best I have in terms of judgement, mechanics and game management - regardless of if it is a women's or men's game. Women's games are usually officiated differently than men's games, because it is a different game - not better or worse, but different. Women's games are usually called a little tighter than men's, because no-one likes to see their little girl getting bumped around. That difference alone will usually slow down a game and make it difficult for some officials to stay together on how they are calling the game and how they are managing the game. Of course, there are execptions to everything I just said - as there are really amazing women's teams and there are really crappy men's games that I dread when I get my schedule.

As for female officials, they are fast tracked. I am not complaining or saying it is right or wrong. But at least in my area, if you are a female and can call a game with any sort of consistency, you will move up faster than men. If you wanted too you could even scrutinize it further that attractive female officials move even faster up the ranks - but that is a function of society. However, with that said, once they get to whatever level they are trying to get too - it will sort itself out usually. Being a female official might open certain doors quicker for you, but to stay in the upper tiers any official has to show the ability to belong there.

As for prestige, yes there is a little more 'juice' with the men's than the women's. Again, I think it is just the way it is, not right or wrong just life.

So that is my 2 cents - hopefully I haven't offended anyone with my comments.

thanks,
dan

I was actually wondering about that. Like at the college level, schools themselves are subject to Title IX, but the NCAA (for most purposes) is not, because it doesn't directly receive fed fund. I'm not sure about conferences. Who is it that actually pays the refs? Schools for non-conf games, conferences for conf games, and the NCAA for tourneys?

I assume there's a huge difference in the pay between NBA and WNBA refs. I had thought that NBA refs made a lot of money, like mid-six figures. The WNBA couldn't pay that much, in part because it would be about 10 times what the players make!

In Los Angeles
 

In our unit it is a widely held belief that good female officials advance significantly faster than men. We have seen women officials be picked up to do women's college a lot quicker than men's officials being picked up for either gender college ball.

To answer your questions specifically:

In our unit we have good officials doing both genders, but the men doing women's basketball are generally not as crisp in their mechanics or as athletic as the top men's officials.

There is no disparity of pay.

It is possible your perception of disparity relates to "the look" of athleticism.

There are some in our unit who perceive women's bball as less prestigious.

I can't tell you what the NCAA is telling their assignors regarding gender issues. But during camps this summer we were told it is generally easier to break into women's compared to men's for male officials. We were also told it is far far easier for a good female official to get in than a male.

Unfortuntately there is often a negative stigma associated with working Girls games.

I recently attended a state-required clinic (Illinois requires 1 every 3 years). I am entering my 4th season and hoping to get some varsity games this year. I had a very poor night during this clinic. After receiving my critique from the evaluator/assignor, I was told to work hard, or forever be labeled a "GIRLS" official.

However, I will say this, I find the Girls Varisty HS game to be slower paced than the Boys game. In theory it should make those games a little easier to officiate for a newer official. In fact, 2 of my 3 assignors have shown the progression for officials to be Boys and Girls Underclass games (all one group), Girls Varsity, and finally Boys Varsity.

Is my perception correct? Probably not completely. Maybe it's just my view, but with my first 2 Varsity games, that though might make me a little more comfortable. It is definitely true that my assignors view the Girls game as being beneath the Boys game. The above "promotion curve" shows that.

Does anyone know if there is a similar typical progression in the college ranks? As in: do some officials start on the women's side, then "move up" to the men's game?

It is now more of a situation where officials have to choose their career path when entering the collegiate ranks. You do not see much crossover from one side to the other, except in small (below D1) conferences where it makes geographic sense to have the same people call on both sides of the ledger. There is a very small number of supervisors at higher levels who might consider trying to lure someone from the other side to come work for them.

As others have said, women have a must faster track to move up and men, and minorities have an even greater opportunity to get hired.

On the court, the egos are usually larger on the men's side, since it considered by the majority of fans to be the more important game. The mechanics, however, are usually better overall on the women's side, as individuality is somewhat frowned upon. The women's game is also much more progressive in mechanics changes, as they adopt the professional philosophy quicker than the men's powers-that-be. If you look back at most new mechanics over the last 10 years, they move from the women's side to the men's side and then eventually down into the high school ranks.

I was given varsity girl's games before I was even given a shot at boy's varsity basketball. The same applied to college ball. I was given a shot at Women's basketball before I was given a shot at the Men's side. The reality in my area is there are fewer slots for Men's basketball. There are more officials that make themselves available it seems for the Men's side. So that means more competition and for a select number of spots. It seems like the officials that work Women's basketball are mostly older men and a lot of women. The women get much more opportunities from what I see on the Women's side of college basketball. I am not going to get into the why because it would just be my opinion only. I just know that I have had to struggle to get picked in certain Men's conferences, where I was offered Women's basketball without even going to a camp. I hope everyone takes this as just one opinion from one person and not and end all be all statement to every area. I am sure there are places this is very different.

Peace

Wow! What did I miss? :)

I beleive that's because these men have years of experience officiating NBA basketball. I beleive Bavetta is the longest tenured official in the league. If you watched the NBA Finals, then you saw the officials that the NBA considers to be the best officials in the league. Certainly, all these mean possess the same qualities as Dick and Danny.

Most WNBA officials also work either NBDL or D1 women's basketball. Many are young officials who are still growing with the game. The NBA has used the WNBA and the NBDL as developmental programs. It served them well but that's another reason that the officials you see in the WNBA aren't as seasoned as the Danny Crawfords of the world.

Is that what you're looking for?

From what I have been told by some top college officials is that once you go men or women that you are labeled as such. I don't know first hand if this is the truth, I would say that men's basketball is more demanding and requires you to be a better official. I think people view men's as more exciting and harder to work. Since they view it as such, more people want to do mens so only the top officials are selected to work mens side. Also men's basketball is harder to officiate, the players are faster, stronger and generally more talented. I'm not trying to offend anyone but that's just the straight up truth. But as above, I know officials work NBDL and WNBA in hopes to advance to the NBA.

yes, that's exactly what I was wondering.

Do you know of any examples of refs who moved up from the WNBA to the NBA? I think Violet Palmer did, but that's the only one I can think of...

thanks again for all the responses on this. Very interesting!

They have to pay the same for refs for men's and women's games, but it sure ain't because of Title IX.

(Hint: try civil rights law and pay parity.)

Violet Palmer was in the NBA before the WNBA was an issue. She was a D1 official before she got the opportunity in the NBA.

Peace

The WNBA's first season was the summer of '97. Violet was hired by the NBA for the '97-'98 season.

Violet's Wiki entry says that she has reffed WNBA games as well. I actually don't recall seeing her, so I'm not sure whether that's true.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Violet_Palmer

I'm not totally sure about that (I'm actually a lawyer), and I'm not sure what civil rights law would be applicable.

You would think that if colleges can legally pay men's coaches more than women's coaches (which they can), then they can also pay men's refs more than women's refs.

But maybe they just don't, for whatever reason.

Colleges and HS aside, I assume that there's a huge pay disparity between WNBA and NBA refs. Anyone know?

Palmer might have worked some WNBA games, but she was hired in the NBA first if I am not mistaken. These are two different seasons. Dee Kantner was hired the same year that Palmer was and both came from the D1 ranks and had worked Final Fours in their career.

Peace

Yep. And Dee was fired from the NBA after being one of the lowest-rated officials in the league.

She soon found other work... as director of WNBA officiating.

As a women's basketball fan, I've never found that very comforting!

Actually Dee went back to college basketball first. She later took a position as the WNBA Director of Officiating. She still works as a D1 official from my understanding. I believe the year after the NBA fired her; she worked in the Final Four the following year.

Peace

Is the talent better on the men's or women's side? I think this question is a lot like asking "Who played against tougher competition: Tiger or Jack?" The top 5 or 6 golfers that Jack played against are much better than the top 5 or 6 golfers that Tiger plays against. But from top to bottom, the field today is much more talented than the group of golfers that Jack played against.

I think this is a pretty good analogy to officiating. I think that at the top, the talent is pretty close to equal on each side. There are probably just as many exceptionally talented women's officials as there are exceptionally talented men's officials. However, from top to bottom, I think there is probably more talent on the men's side.


I don't know if it's easier, but I do know that people get accepted to work women's games that I don't think would possibly be able to work even a low-level men's game. And I have heard (although I have no experience to back it up) that a talented official will move up the ranks much quicker on the women's side.

Yes. No question. Maybe not at the very top levels -- hey, D1 is D1. But at the D3 level, I think it is definitely perceived as less prestigious.

Somebody also mentioned whether it's possible to do both men's and women's, or whether it's possible to cross over from women's to men's. I can't give a definitive answer, but I've had a D1 assignor tell me that if an official works women's games, he can't hire that official to work men's games, b/c he'll get calls from the coaches asking why he sent a women's official to the game. For what it's worth.

At the camp I attended last year, one of the speakers said that if you choose to do college, you have to choose either men or women to officiate and concentrate on breaking in there. He said that very, very few cross at the D1 level.

The WNBA is kinda of like the AAA training grounds for NBA Officials with Womens NCAA being AA.

Wasn't Joe DeRosa from the NBA originally a women's collegiate official--before there was a WNBA?

I think the main reason for being paid the same is obviously the conference rules (which generally set pay rates for officials - at least at the major conference level). That said, I think there's a much better argument that the jobs of men's and women's officials are the same than saying the jobs of men's and women's coaches are the same.

**Correction/Letal Revelation** - Perhaps you could back me up on this one, womens_hoops - pay parity laws would require that a male or female working the same level would have to be paid the same, and doesn't apply to the gender of the job. (A little bit of introduction to Title IX in soc. classes can be a dangerous thing. :-p)

This isn't my area of expertise, and I have only done cursory research, but my basic thought is:

Suppose Ref-A is a woman and Ref-B is a man. If Ref-A and Ref-B both ref in the men's game, and if they both have comparable experience, etc., then you have to pay them the same under Title VII of the Civil Rights Act, which applies to all employers.

If, however, Ref-A works in the women's game and Ref-B works in the men's game... it's a little less clear to me that Title VII would require parity. The employer (assuming that there'e one employer covering both games) could argue that different salary levels were based not on the the employee's gender, but rather on some other non-discriminatory factor (men's game is more profitable, more challenging, or it's a more competitive hiring environment so you have to pay more, or something).

I'm really not sure how the latter case would turn out. Seems like you could argue it either way.

In practice, it seems like most schools/conferences would want to pay the same anyway, possibly just because they think it's the right thing to do. And schools (especially state schools) might have additional requirements from state law that go above and beyond federal law.

(I'm not clear whether Title IX applies to this stuff at all. Title IX applies only to educational institutions receiving federal funds. It's unclear whether it has any application to the NCAA and conferences, which don't receive federal funds. I was actually looking at this the other day with respect to the mascot thing -- that's a Title VI issue, and it's similar to Title IX, and there's some case law saying that while it applies to schools, it doesn't apply to the NCAA.)

I guess that's a long way of saying: I'm not totally sure what the law requires.

Which is part of why I was wondering whether folks here know whether, for any reason, refs on the women's side make less or the same as on the men's side.

I heard today, incidentally, that refs in the WNBA get about $750 per game, which someone said is about the same as D1 tournament play. I think the WNBA refs (unlike the NBA refs) don't have a Collective Bargaining Agreement, and so don't have regular salaries.

I'm not really sure how many games the typical WNBA ref works, but with only 34 games per team in the season, it probably ends up to be quite a bit less than NBA refs.

I think I'm agreeing with you completely, but my legal reasoning isn't well enough developed so that you could understand what I wrote.

Bill Kennedy, Matthew Boland, Michael Henderson, Tony Brown, Derrick Collins, Ed Malloy, Courtney Kirkland, Pat Fraher, Ed Malloy, and Jason Phillips all officiated in the WNBA prior to moving to the NBA. If you want to know who maybe next, watch the WNBA Finals. Most, if not all these officials worked the Finals.

Joe DeRosa worked D1 men's, not women's. He only worked college for three years before being picked up by the NBA.

And yes, D1 men's officials defintely receive a higher game fee than D1 women's officials.

Can you give me a rough sense of what the difference is?

thanks a ton for the response!

That might vary based on conference, but the conferences in the Midwest get paid the exact same in each Men's and Women's basketball.

Peace

I thought it was the exact same also, but am no expert on the subject.

It is the exact same. I have had D1 officials use the line, "you get paid the same" as a justification to work Women's college basketball. I know all the JUCO and D3 and two games are paid the same. I realize D1 is a completely different issue, but from the officials I know, they make the exact same in travel and game fee based on where they live and their expenses.

Peace

Gary Zielinski also worked the WNBA before he got his job in the NBA.

Hmmm,
 

The title and jist of this thread is:

Women's Basketball . . .

My question would be:

Who would want to referee games of the high school level if you were good enough to work college basketball?

Tommy Nunez Jr worked WNBA as well.

In some conferences, the fee is the same, in other conferences if isn't. I have a friend that I got into basketball officiating about 15 years ago. He camped his butt off and works some mid-major women's conferences now. He tells me that some of the conferences pay up to 50% more for men's games. That's based on what he makes versus what some friends in the men's program have told him. I have no reason to doubt him.

And yes, BZ and stripes are both correct. Both Nunez Jr. and Zielinski both worked WNBA.

I've heard the same thing.

Re: Hmmm,
 

Unless someone is working a very high level of D1 games, it would be unlikely that most officials would be capable to work only college basketball. Even many D1 officials work high school games and they have to fill out their schedule with D3 and JUCO games to complete their schedule. Also many college games are not played on the same nights as HS basketball games. I guess it could be done, but they would work might be lucky if they worked a 3rd of their entire schedule trying to only work college basketball. In my area there are not as many colleges or games available.

Peace

Re: Hmmm,
 

People who have limitations other than ability. Family or Job requirements have a higher priority for some and may dictate which level of ball they want to work. The higher the level of ball, the more travel and the more time away from your family and job. If were to work college ball, I'd see me kids even less than I do now and I'd probably lose my job.

Are you sure about Bill Kennedy? I know he broke into the NBA as a scab official and stuck. He did work in the CBA. He used to work at a skating rink on Sundays while he was in the CBA.

I thought his name was Benedict Kennedy...

Is it possible that the difference in fee is not b/c of the gender of games, but b/c of the "tiered" pay scale in many D1 conferences?

What I mean is, maybe it's not 50% more for men's games than women's games; maybe it's 50% more for a 5th year official in the conference than for a 1st year official in the conference.

Are you sure about Bill Kennedy? I know he broke into the NBA as a scab official and stuck. He did work in the CBA. He used to work at a skating rink on Sundays while he was in the CBA. [/B][/QUOTE]According to the NBRA site, Kennedy did 2 games in the 1998 WNBA finals.

They have pretty complete bios on all of their members under "roster"-
http://www.probasketballrefs.com/

According to the NBRA site, Kennedy did 2 games in the 1998 WNBA finals.

They have pretty complete bios on all of their members under "roster"-
http://www.probasketballrefs.com/ [/B][/QUOTE]

I thought his name was Broderick Kennedy....

I thought his name was Broderick Kennedy.... [/B][/QUOTE]

I stand corrected and that site does have a lot of information. :)

Do you have something against Bill Kennedy being a scab or was that a jokey joke? :D

I stand corrected and that site does have a lot of information. :)

Do you have something against Bill Kennedy being a scab or was that a jokey joke? :D [/B][/QUOTE]

Jokey joke? I thought his name was Bastien Kennedy...

It is somewhat frustrating to see women moving up way faster than they would if they were men on the men's side. Around here, a lot of them are set up to fail because they get picked up to do college games far before they are ready.
I've seen officials who have lots of potential but don't have their foundation in place before they're thrown into the fire. There seems to be a perception that everyone wants to see women officials in the women's game. However, I've talked with plenty of coaches and players who are immensely frustrated by this philosophy --- specifically, having officials on their games that are not ready to be there. Most of them say they prefer men on their games because the men they get are usually more experienced and better prepared by the time they get to the college ranks than the women. There are obviously many exceptions and I am no way saying that men are better officials than women. I've reffed with many many outstanding women officials. I just wonder if any official is ready for Div. 1 in their 2nd or 3rd year of officiating. I've seen it around here with women but never with men.

If you ask me everyone is advancing too fast on the Women's side. There are many officials getting an opportunity very fast on the Women's side. This is not about just women whom officiate. There are a lot of officials that have no business working D1 Women's basketball. That is just one man's opinion though.

Peace

here are some thought on the matter:

http://womenshoops.blogspot.com/2005...ng-heated.html

http://womenshoops.blogspot.com/2005...-say-this.html

would be interested to here what y'all think about this.

I read both articles and thought the points that where made were very good. I think that the articles took an objective point of view towards the issues that Women's basketball faces at the pro level (and some college as well) without all the rhetoric that we hear sometimes on this site about the issue.

Peace

thanks much. I've appreciated the thoughts you've all shared on this, helping me to understand how things work out there.

There have been many good points made on this topic and I personally believe that it all comes down to supply and demand. People have had a chance to move up more quickly on the women's side because the supply hasn't kept up with demand. That is one reason I chose to go the women's route. I started officiating later in life and did not have time to wait 10 years before getting picked up to do games on the men's side. There are many more people who want to work on the men's side, hence the demand for new officials is much less that the available supply. One's choice on which route to pursue has a lot to do with both patience AND preference.