I've never seen something like this happen, but for some reason it popped into my head. It's unlikely to happen, but certainly possible. I'm wondering what the correct call would be.

Here goes:

A1 drives toward the basket while B1 rushes in from opposite side of the floor. A1 misses his layup, but the shot is quickly tipped in by A2. Just after the tip-in, but before A1 reaches the floor, B1 barrels into A1, committing a foul.

What would the proper call be? I've already asked 3-4 people and have gotten 3-4 different answers.

The ball is dead as soon as it goes through the basket after the tip-in. A1 is <b>NOT</b> an airborne shooter. A2 was the shooter. You ignore the foul unless you think the contact was intentional or flagrant, which doesn't sound like it was from your description. Rule 4-19-1NOTE.

As far as I can tell the ncaa & the fed thinks he is under 4-1.

What's your call if another B player also fouled A2 while he was tipping the ball in then? Gonna put both A1 and A2 on the line? Gonna also give A1 two(2) FT's because <b>his</b> shot didn't go in?

An airborne shooter until one foot NCAA, two feet Fed returns to the floor ... is this correct?

I actually thought, if going strictly by the rulebook, that the foul on B1 would be technical in nature since it occurs after the ball is dead, since the ball becomes dead upon going into the basket. Thus, you would give team A two shots and the ball.

We aint talking about what my call or anybody's call might be.

We're talking about how the rules define airborne shooter.

eastcoastref: this play happens much more ofen than you might think - it's not unusual to have more than 1 offensive player in the air with lots of contact on a multiple rebound/putback/miss. Unless B1 caused A1 to miss then let his contact go 99.999% of the time. And B1 had better be clearly headhunting if you do call something.

Yikes.

The obvious call is that you don't call a foul on B1 unless it's some pretty bad contact.

That said, a hypothetical. A1 goes up for a shot, gets fouled by B1, then A2 goes up for the rebound and gets fouled by B2. In both cases, the fouls occur before the shooter returns to the floor, and both shots miss.

By common sense, I think I may *happen* to judge that A1 was not in his/her shooting motion. By rule, however, this would be a false multiple foul - 2 shots for A1, then 2 shots for A2.

I don't understand how you could let the contact go if it was significant contact.

If B1 is coming from the side at a high rate of speed and clearly goes for the blocked shot (therefore not flagrantly going after A1) but then barrels into A1 after the shot is released so that A1 goes flying into the second row of the bleachers, you're trying to tell me you're going to let that contact go, simply because A2 tipped in the missed shot?

What happened to old adage of protecting the shooter? Are we supposed to stop protecting him because his teammate got the rebound of his miss?

2 fouls??

I don't think so.

You can send A1 to the line, A2 to the line, or no one to the line.

But no way send both.

Would I send both? No in 99.9999995% of cases.

Could I send both? Absolutely.



A1 shoots - try has started, ball is live.

B1 fouls A1 before A1 comes down to the ground - ball is still live (foul on defense during a shot - 6-7 Exception), the try has not ended (4-40-4).

A2 taps the ball - considered the same as a try, this does not end A1's try, unless the first shot was determined to be "certain(ly) unsuccessful."

B2 fouls A2 - ball is still live, try has not ended.


Two fouls on two shooters equals two shots for each.

It seems to me the only way A2 can tip in a rebound that is *not* "certain(ly) unsuccessful" would result in offensive BI.

Well, in 99.9999995% of cases at least. ;)

Anyways...we agree you *could* call it this way. Not sure you would want to though, even .0000005% of the time.

Whoa there partner. Once A2 touches the ball, A1's try has ended. You can't have two active shots going on at the same time. Does that mean you can't have two airborn shooters at the same time? no. The tap by A2 could be a violation, a new try, a bat of a loose ball, etc.

A1 must have some serious hang time to shoot a ball, have it miss, have A2 rebound (without a BI/GT violation) and make a shot, then have B1 foul A1 before returning to the floor.

Just stirrin' the pot a bit is all...

http://www.edc.org/hec/pubs/cara/images_cara/42.gif

this
 

is where you pack up and admit to yourself that maybe officiating isnt for you...

first off -- there will be bodies on the floor during a game where no foul is called (called incidental)

secondly -- if you call this a technical (because technically that's what it is) that's horrible game management

thirdly -- I agree with Ref in PA that NO way this happens -- A1 would have to have a 80" vertical

fourthly -- I agree with Dan_Ref as well -- you cannot have 2 shooters on one shot -- A1 shot ended when A2 attempted a putback.

fifthly -- is it just me or is this a lot out of nothing -- sounds like a normal basketball game

While the ball does become dead, the foul is not a technical. A personal foul includes contact while the ball is dead on or by an airborn shooter.

bob
 

is right -- and heres an example that happens quite often

shot goes up and as soon as the ball goes through the basket a player who has been boxed out well tries and times his push to create space -- now the basket is good then the push happens -- just a PF -- if on the defense the offense gets 2 (or 3 points) plus the ball back at the spot of foul -- if on the offense -- count the bucket and award a fould to the offensive player (unless im wrong with counting the bucket -- but i see it as happening after the shot and not having anything to do with the shot no need to penalize the offense twice in this case).

Along the same lines, what do you have if A1 shoots the ball while airborne, the ball is clearly short of the basket and hits A2 in the head. After the ball hits A2's head B1 fouls A1 while airborne, then the ball enters the basket. Whatcha got?

:/
 

what shoes are A1 wearing -- or is he using a rocket pack to jump -- or does he wear blue and red tights?

id just call the game and go home...or issue a red card to A2 for illegally headding the ball and "t" up B team coach...

A ticket to a Three Stooges retrospective?

Dual airborne shooters. It could be.
 

A1 became an airborne shooter when s/he shot the ball (under 4.1). Being an airborne shooter doesn't end for A1 till s/he returns to the ground. If there's another shot (a tap is a try), or a technical for A5 screaming 'Duck!', while the airborne shooter is . . . airborne . . . I don't think the rules or the casebook indicates that that status ends any other way than by returning to the ground.

Whether by one foot or two - I am interested in that. A player 'with the ball' gets nothing - if you catch a pass and there's only room/time to get one foot down, that's what you get. You need more, foul on you.

But for an airborne shooter, who by definition aquired the status by getting rid of the ball as a shot, is time and distance relevant, say in the way it is in screening? I don't think so. If the defender has position, and the airborne shooter has a vector forward - well, perhaps that was his/her distance in which to stop. If airborne shooter A1 gets one foot down, then crashes into defender B1 . . . foul on the ground on A1 after the shot (ignoring the dicey issue of whether or not the ball has gone through the basket)? Surely the airborne shooter doesn't have the right to land one-on-to-two . . .

Re: this
 

"fourthly -- I agree with Dan_Ref as well -- you cannot have 2 shooters on one shot -- A1 shot ended when A2 attempted a putback."

Without considering the larger issue, airborne shooter status appears to be defined as terminating when the airborne shooter returns to the floor, not when the try ends.

Thanks
 

From the Rules Fundamentals . . . good point.

Like I said when I originally posted this, it seems like everyone has a different answer. There have been 20-some repsonses to this thread, yet no one has definitively been able to say what the proper call would be.

While the original question is tough, this one is easy.

Since the ball wasn't in flight on a try, the ball becomes dead when the foul is committed. A1 is still an airborne shooter. Wipe the "basket" and award A1 two shots.

[/b]

I agree, in theory, but where's the rule support for this?

I agree, and this is why I would probably never call it, but humor me for the situation where A1 can jump.

Re: Re: this
 

Precisely. I think this carries more weight than my hypothetical argument about two tries.

So in other words .....



No one really has any idea what the correct call is!!!

The rule support you find is in 4-40-4 "The try ends when the throw is successful, when it is certain the throw is unsuccessful, when the ball touches the floor or when the ball becomes dead."

The only legal touch of a try I can think of is when the try by A1 is on its upward arc (not sure why A2 would block a try by A1). This type of a touch I would consider a pass from A1 to A2, with A2 receiving credit should the ball go in the basket.

All other types of touches by A2 are after the try by A1 has ended or they end the try of A1.

A tap of a try by A1 on its downward arc by A2 that was going into the basket would be GT (9-12). If the ball was not going to go in, A1's try has ended and the touch by A2 is legal.

If the try by A1 did not go in immediately but is on the rim or any part of the ball is within the cylinder above the rim and A2 taps the ball, that is BI (9-11). So for A2 to legally touch the ball, it must be outside the cylinder after the missed shot by A1 - in other words the try by A1 has ended.

Either way the try by A1 ends with the touch of A2. If it was a legal touch by A2, then A2 gets credited with the made basket, not A1, as his try ended.

I'm suprised at the discussion on this.

I thought it was pretty obvious.

An airborne shooter is an airborne shooter until they land. Period. If they get fouled before they land, the get 2 FTs (unless the shot is made).

While it is extremely unlikely to occur, there is no rule that says you can't have two airborne shooters at the same time.

Neither the firist try ending nor the 2nd try beginning changes the airborne shooter status of the first shooter.

Theoretically, you could have two (or more) independant shooting fouls occuring before the ball becomes dead.

In practice, I doubt it would ever happen since there is such a small time frame in which several events must occur in order for it to even be possible.

Even if it did, you could make the point that the 2nd contact was of no advantage since the ball was going to become dead due to the first foul.

[Edited by Camron Rust on Aug 18th, 2005 at 02:06 AM]

I can accept the theory that the try ends, due to being apparently unsuccessful, when touched by A2.

But still, A1 is an airborne shooter until he touches the ground. I think I'm going to stop making myself (and everyone else) dizzy, apologize to the board, and stop here.

*i think it should be a regular foul because he wasnt shooting the ball when he was fouled and right when the ball hits the basket...its considered dead.*

It is? :confused: Rules citation, please.