I saw this in a FIBA game and was wondering what the NFHS ruling would be. It's similar to one of the questions in the Backcourt Quiz, but seems a little different to me.

Player A1 is dribbling across the halfcourt line, picks up the ball while still straddling the line, drops the ball in the backcourt and picks it up again. Violation?

What if he never controls the ball while attempting to end his dribble, and fumbles in the backcourt?

In the FIBA game, a backcourt violation was called, but I think there is no "two feet and the ball" rule in FIBA. Somehow you're supposed to magically cross the line all at once.

Thanks, and I apologize if this has been asked and answered before.

The only thing I may have here, depending on how the entire play happened, is an illegal dribble. No backcourt violation, because foot #2 is still in the backcourt, therefore, the player AND the ball is still considered in the backcourt.

Quick question though..in your sitch did the player dribble the ball at all on the other side of the line? Correct me if I'm wrong, guys and girls, but this would not make a difference, correct?

A fumble is not a dribble, so it isn't an illegal dribble.

Jim, as long as any part of his body is touching the BC, he's still in the BC. If he's in the BC, you can't have a BC violation.

No violation, since the ball is never in the frontcourt.

An interesting variation: The player who dribbles in the backcourt ends the dribble while straddling the line and fumbles the ball, as above. But here, the ball falls into the frontcourt and the player, still straddling the line, picks it up. Is this a backcourt violation?

I say yes. The fumble is not part of a dribble, so the ball is in the frontcourt when it drops into the frontcourt. The other conditions for a backcourt violation are met here.

What do you think?

Just to clarify the FIBA rule. You attain FC status as soon as the ball or any part of the body touches the frontcourt. However, when a player is dribbling across the division line, an allowance is made as long as the dribbler continues forward. Otherwise, it would impossible to dribble into the front court without commiting a BC violation.

Jay

Just remember this for NFHS rules, 2 over, and 1 back.

You have to have all three points over before it is a back court violation.

But once you do get all three over, you only have to have one point over to have a back court violation.

All three points is only when dribbling. If fumbled into the front court and picked up and foot in backcourt, then yes, bc violation.

I think BktBallRef has included this play
 

in his Backcourt Quiz. Theoretically . . . it's a violation.

I've been watching for that for years and haven't bagged me one yet.

Yes, this is a BC violation.

This only applies to a dribble. If the player above had lifted his foot from the BC, using the FC foot as a pivot, and then put the BC foot back down in the BC, it would be a violation. That's true, even though neither the ball or the back foot touched the FC.

Not only theoretcially but also legalistically. You'll have to decide if you should call it realistically. :)

[Edited by BktBallRef on Aug 11th, 2005 at 12:10 PM]

Just by accident, right?

Which is why I said depending on how the entire play happened (meaning if it wasn't a fumble or if another dribble occurred).....

Nope. Dribbled to mid-court line and stopped his dribble, with one foot in the backcourt and one in the frontcourt. Tried to pass and dropped the ball in the backcourt, then picked it up. I think at this point both feet were in the backcourt.

Here I see a player end the dribble while straddling the line. Nothing wrong with that. Fumbles the ball in the FC, picks it up, nothing wrong with that either. Does the player move either foot while straddling the line? If not, why is that a backcourt violation?

Yes, there is something wrong with that, the ball attained front court status. The 10 second count ends. The player touches the ball with his foot in the backcourt, tweet, violation

Answer these questions...
1. Team control?
2. Ball (not player)has FC status?
3. Team A last to touch the ball before the ball returns to the backcourt.
4. Team A first to touch after ball returns to the backcourt.

If any are no...no violation.

#1. Yes...clearly since A1 was dribbling up to this point.
#2. Yes. Since the 3-point exception only applies during dribbler, the fumble causes the ball to be in the FC when it bounces.
#3. Yes. Prior to the fumble.
#4. Yes. After the fumble.

I'm in total agreement with points #1 & #2, but please help me to understand how the ball returns to the backcourt, I don't read that in the post.

I liken this situation to A1 strattling the line, passing to A2 (who is in the frontcourt; ball is now in the frontcourt) and then receiving a return pass while still straddling the line. That would, IMO, constitute an obvious violation.

But I appreciate your post, I did learn that the ball can gain FC status, during a fumble, while the player my still be in the BC.

The player, say A1, is straddling the line and has the ball, then fumbles. The ball hits the frontcourt. The ball is now in the frontcourt. The ball attains backcourt status when A1, still straddling the line, recovers the fumble. A1 is in the backcourt, A1 touches the ball, hence the ball is in the backcourt as well.

A1 was the last to touch before the ball returned to the backcourt, and A1 was the first to touch when the ball returned to the backcourt.

Where is the player? In the BC

Where is the balkl when he drops it? In the FC.

Where is the player and subsequently the ball when he recovers it? In the BC.

Violation.

It's the same play.

When the ball is passed to the teammate, it attains FC status.

When the ball is fumbled to the floor, it attains FC status.

In both cases, when the player who is straddling the division line again, it's a violation.

I can be very dense sometimes .. Sorry Camron, thanks Lotto

No need to be sorry! This is a convoluted rule.

Camron - no it's not. It's as clear as a Metro land use regulation!

(that's an inside joke here in Portland)

I haven't had the opportunity to make that call yet either, but I did get to call a rather bizarre one.

A girl threw the ball from the BC into the FC where it hit my partner, who was running down the court with his back turned :rolleyes:, in the butt and rebounded directly into the BC, where that same girl recovered it.

That coach was in total disbelief!

Ah, coach-in-disbelief. Peeping like a tree-frog . . .
 

My most recent favorite . . . I am the lead watching thrower A1 and defender B1 carefully. 4 . . . 4.5 . . . release . . . by the time I catch sight of the ball it is in the air, being hauled in by A2, who is towards the sideline, a little ways towards midcourt beyond the plane of the backboard. Coach of Team B goes nuts claiming the ball hit the back of the backboard. Before T-ing him I actually attempted to diagram the angle of incidence and the angle of reflection for him . . . but no, it was not to be . . .

*i think the call should be without a doubt a double dribble because she dropped it then picked it back up after she had already picked up her dribble. i dont know if i would call a over and back because i wouldnt be sure.*

Not necessarily. Dropping the ball is not always a dribble. It could be a fumble, which can be legally picked up again. Judgement call.

Simply losing control of the ball and fumbling it to the floor is NOT a dribble. A fumble is the accidental loss of player control when the ball unintentionally drops or slips from a player's grasp. A fumble is not a drible and a double dribble should not be called.