What leap of faith would that be? I don't understand your point.

This is a great idea, in theory. How can anyone with any rational thought process disagree?[/QUOTE]

C'mon, MM, you know people that disagree. "It's not my problem." "I'm not gonna hire 'em" "As long as they stay away from my daughter." There are lots and lots of people out there who just don't care, and who actually profit from having the wall in place.



The whole point is that it's not something individuals have any choice about. The "non-victim" victims can't decide they want the wall to be still there for themselves, just like the power elite can't choose to knock it down or keep it up by themselves, individually. That's part of the definition of racism -- it's built into the institutions, and the cultural expectations of the larger society and it can't be managed one person at a time.

Enlightening individuals won't do it. People have to actively seek to understand and be accountable for the ways that racism is built into the very fabric of this country. We need to address the structure, not just our own individual opinions.

The trick isn't to convince everyone, but to see the structure clearly, and address issues that way. When you can focus on the "infra-structure", you'll see a lot more what can be done and how to go about it.

I don't understand what makes you the authority on black people. Part of the problem is this information comes from the those who wish to keep things as they are.

I'm a 49er fan so my favorite players are Rice and Montana.
My favorite athlete of all time is Magic Johnson. Watch him on tape and tell me anyone ever played the game like him.

I said it before, who do you think makes rappers rich? It isn't me because I don't listen to it!

I don't think you are very open to understand. You already have your opinion formed and that is pitiful. I'm so thankful that I don't have that burden weighing me down. People are equally mean, racist and ignorant.

Has there been any talk of the colleges suing the NCAA to continue the use of their logos and continue their eligibility to host post season events?

I could just see this being a court battle for years to come.

I am not a very sensitive guy, it takes a lot to get under my skin, but quoting black comedians to make a point about black people as a whole rubbed me the wrong way.

I am a tall white Indiana boy, but don't quote David Letterman to me and assume that is how I feel.

The talking legal heads who have been interviewed so far seem to come out on the side of no - the NCAA is a voluntary, member-run association - any school who doesn't like its policies is free to leave at any point.

That said, the monopolistic nature of the NCAA (think baseball's anti-trust exemption) is the one thing that could make this interesting.

Juulie -

I was going to do the whole quote/unquote thing to go back over the points, but I think I will just confuse myself (yes, even more than I am now!).

I'm confused over who you feel causes the problem, and who is responsible for fixing it - individuals or society? One one hand, you say to join you, as individuals, to tear down that damn wall. But in another point, you say we can't do it as individuals. But isn't society a collection of individuals? To me, blaming "society" for my problems is just another way to relieve myself from my personal responsibilty. I can't change society, I can only change my little corner of the world. But if more people change their own little corners, pretty soon that wall becomes a curb. I don't know if you're familiar with the song, "Alice's Restaurant" by Arlo Guthrie. It's an old song that deals with his experience with the draft during the Vietnam war. In one part of the song, he's talking about what would happen if someone started singing the song during the induction interview process. "You know, if one person, just one person does it they may think he's really sick and they won't take him. And if two people, two people do it, in harmony, they may think they're both faggots and they won't take either of them. And three people do it, three, can you imagine, three people walking in singin a bar of Alice's Restaurant and walking out. They may think it's an organization. And can you, can you imagine fifty people a day, I said fifty people a day walking in singin a bar of Alice's Restaurant and walking out. And friends they may thinks it's a movement." That's how things get changed - as individuals, one brick at a time. There is no "society" entity that will do it for us, just us lowly individuals. On those same lines, there is no society holding back individuals, just individuals being held back. And, I think in most cases, they are just holding themselves back. Maybe, in a lot of cases, they don't know they are holding themselves back. They need to become informed. But, there are others who don't wish to become informed, because it's easier to blame others rather than do the necessary things to get where you want to go. Am I not a D-1 official because the "society" of D-1 assignors has decided a middle-aged white male is not who they want? Or, is it more likely that I am a little over-weight and a little under-talented to actually be a D-1 official? I can blame the "society" for holding me back, or I can take personal responsibilty and realize sometimes it's a combination of my fault and the fact that life isn't fair and everyone isn't going to get everything they want.

Going back to my "leap of faith" argument - hopefully I can articulate what I mean. Usually in a logical progression, you might say, "if point A, then point B", and you can also say, "if point B, then usually point C", and "if point C, then point D". But that doesn't always translate into being able to say, "if point A, then point D". Racism is still, simply put, advantage/disadvantage because of intent. But I'm not sure you can get to the direct connection that our current society is inherently racist without going through a couple of point B's, then point C's, then there it is. Sometimes that logic works, but we have to be careful in assuming it works all the time. I get up in the morning. The sun comes up in the morning. The flowers open when the sun comes up. Therefore, I get up because the flowers open? That's why I asked if there is a specific example of a policy or law that is directly racist, or directly intends to hold back a certain race or group of people. (Well, maybe some people might count affirmative action policies, but that's another discussion altogether.)

The thing that bothers me about the NCAA action, as well as the people against the symbol of the Chief here at the U of I, is the relativly small group of people telling the majority that what they know what's right and what the majority is doing is wrong. Of course, majorities aren't always right (acceptance of slavery), but that doesn't always mean minorities are right as well (Nazis' views about Jews). What happened to the discussion, thought, introspection, more thought, more discussion, etc.? To me, it's following the "leap of faith" logic to say that these mascots and symbols are "hostile and abusive". There is not one school on the list that discriminates against Indian students. None of these mascots were designed to be hostile to Indian culture. Yet, because some Indians are offended by the symbols, and the ones that protest the symbols are met with hostility, therefore the symbols are hostile.

It seems as though there are 2 basic types of people - the idealists and the realists. Some people may call them by other names, such as liberal and conservative. Idealists have the grand, overall view of how society, the world, life in general should be. Realists have the view that life isn't fair, we should just "get over it", human nature is what it is. These are by far gross generalities, but my point is we need both, in balance. The danger lies in one view becoming too prominent.

All I can be responsible for is my own little corner of the world; how I treat people and how I teach my kids how to treat people. Hopefully, others will do the same and those bricks will slowly disappear.

So, do I win the prize for the longest damn post?

Although you make some good points I still think you don't understand. You might not be able to make it based on ability and your weight. What if you didn't make it because the color of your skin? What if you could flat out ref but there wasn't "room" for you? Don't be so naive to think it doesn't happen.

I think each of us as individuals must do what we can to fight prejudice. Please don't take the following as bragging, but as examples of what a single person can do. All of this is true.

When I came to Portland from the south side of Chicago (after living one year in Vegas), I ran into culture shock like you couldn't believe. This was 1971. I grew up in an ethnically mixed neighborhood where the main criteria for being liked by the rest of the group was whether or not you were good at sports - period. Here, it was a lot different. The town was pretty much segregated as to housing and schools. I went to work for Montgomery Ward. The following year, I was a department manager and we had an opening in my department (mens clothing) for a salesperson. One of the guys working in the stockroom applied. After interviewing a bunch of people, I made the decision to hire him. I had no idea he would be the first black man to work in a position meeting the public in the entire Ward's Portland district. Notice I don't use "African-American" even though some would say it's PC. I feel that we shouldn't hyphenate "American" and we should always treat all citizens as just "Americans", since they are.

I took a lot of flack from some of the other managers. In fact, I was told by some that my career was over and I would never advance. I couldn't believe this attitude. Of course it turned out that the guy was a terrific salesperson and mostly because of his performance, the color line was broken.

I didn't think I did anything "noble" or "brave" because I was just acting within the cultural behavior with which I had been raised.

In the late 60s, I was in Vegas visiting my grandparents. My grandfather took me to see a movie downtown. When we went in, there was a sign on the doors leading to the main floor that said "White" and a sign on the door leading to the balcony that said "Colored". Growing up in the Chicago area, I had never seen this before. I asked my grandfather about it and he said he was surprised also. We left the theater after getting our money back.

A final note - I had some guys tell me they thought it was strange when I got married that both my best man and the judge were black. I still don't get how some people look at the world that way. Unfortunately, I may be in the minority.

Prejudice sucks.

It not about being PC, it is about being correct.
 

Mark, everyone that is Black is not an American. Pele is Black, but he would never be African-American. That also applies to many Latin players from other countries. Sammy Sosa is clearly Black, he is not an African-American.

Peace

M&M,

I really do not know what to tell you. You also said I am in a position of power and privilege, but to get there I had to be better than most to even get noticed. Guys that are just as good as other people never get certain opportunities. I also think you make some good points and I understand why you feel the way you do. But you also need to know that everyone does not see the world through your eyes. Just because you are not offended, does not mean others do not have the right to be offended by something that deals with them. The last time I checked I do not see stereotypes about white males and mascots that represent those stereotypes in mass media or by universities. Of course there are examples that many have given, but the problem is you have so many images that counter balance any negativity that is out there. Unfortunately most people know of Native Americans through mascots and other images that are very negative and stereotypical. I think neither you nor I are in a position to tell them how to feel about it. I do not have kids but if I did something to insult your kids not only would that be your right that would be understandable.

Peace

Re: It not about being PC, it is about being correct.
 

This is just one example of different ways of thinking. Rut has no problem with the term African-American while I think it is a load of crap! There is no ill will because of this, just two different ways of thinking. I don't think I, nor anyone who looks like me, chose that term and I don't accept it. I could be wrong about this and if I am I would like to ask the person who made this decision "why." We should be classified as Americans and then when my color is information that someone thinks they need we should ask why that is. Is it about affimative action? Something else that is sad. Should we have it? No! BUT, the fact that it was ever needed is a problem. End of ramble. :D

Who came up with the need to put this information on applications and the like anyway?

[/B][/QUOTE]

I don't understand what makes you the authority on black people. Part of the problem is this information comes from the those who wish to keep things as they are.

I'm a 49er fan so my favorite players are Rice and Montana.
My favorite athlete of all time is Magic Johnson. Watch him on tape and tell me anyone ever played the game like him.

I said it before, who do you think makes rappers rich? It isn't me because I don't listen to it!

I don't think you are very open to understand. You already have your opinion formed and that is pitiful. I'm so thankful that I don't have that burden weighing me down. People are equally mean, racist and ignorant. [/B][/QUOTE]

The same reasons that makes you an authority on Americans.

Pitiful would be when you post your hypocritical feelings.

There is nothing wrong with listening to rap/hip-hop music. Not all rap music degrades women and different races.

Do you have to write or verbally use a color when describing a person?

Re: It not about being PC, it is about being correct.
 

Are you implying that people from the Domenican Republic (Sosa) or Brazil (Pele) are not "Americans"? Or that they do not have African Heritage and bloodlines?

Hmmmm,

I thought Sosa was just a baseball player.

Wouldn't it be nice if this were true?

Like Mark, I find this discussion interesting, and educational.

I worry that the biggest obstacle our country faces isn't liberal/conservative or rich/poor, but rather our tenuous race relationships.

Race relationships in America remind me of the scene in "Men in Black" where Tommy Lee Jones is explaining to Will Smith why there's a need to keep the public in the dark about the presence of alien creatures on Earth. Will Smith responds by saying something along the lines of "but people are rational, sane, and understanding". And, Tommy Lee Jones rebuts, "A PERSON is rational, sane and understanding. PEOPLE are irrational..."

On a person-to-person level, I think race relationships are pretty healthy. We work and play with people of other races. But, when we talk about problems, its the grander scale "them" we have issues with. That's why its so important for discussions like this. The more we know about each other, and the more we can discuss these things in a respectful way, the better things will get.

As for prejudice, for most right thinking people, our prejudices are more subconscious. It reminds me of a management case I heard once, where a consultant was asked to review the structure of the senior management group of a company, which was all white, all male. As the consultant spoke to each of the executives, he discovered most had attended the same alma mater as the CEO. Without consciously realizing it, the CEO had surrounded himself with people he was "familiar" with. We all have to be willing to step outside our comfort zones.

Last - and this is off the subject - someone mentioned "Red States" in passing. I hate that term. Hate it. Many of the states pigeonholed as Red/Blue were closely contested. The media's obsession with categorizing everything once again causes conflicts that needn't exist.

"You cannot make a man by standing a sheep on its hind legs. But by standing a flock of sheep in that position you can make a crowd of men."
-- Max Beerbohm