Some have asked about the signal for the new team control foul. In the August 2005 Referee magazine issue it outlines it. On page 70 a play pic has the following sequence. It says that "officials will not have to learn a new signal for the team control foul. The following sequence of signals will be used.

1. One hand fist to indicate foul.
2. Preliminary signal to indicate nature of the foul.
3. Point to opposite end of the floor.
4. Indicate spot for the designated spot throw-in.

Oddly enough, the signal used in #2 in the play pic is for a block. That might confuse someone!

The block, along with the hold, has long been used to signal a bad screen (which I think the majority of TC fouls will be).

In practice I don't think this is a big deal at all. It really won't be any different than any other off-ball foul in previous years, except if you didn't point before you will now. But early in the year you may have to say something to the coach as you pass about "team control foul, no free throws."

I think we're going a little overboard on this team control foul issue. The team control foul, by definition, is new. But it's only new because of the penalty. The type of contact that previously constituted a foul is the same. The only thing that has changed is that we will no longer shoot FTs in these types of circumstances.

There's no need for a new signal. There's no new team control signal in the NCAA or the NBA. One isn't needed in NFHS either.

NCAA men, TC and PC foul have the same signal, hand behind head.

NCAA women has the punch for a TC foul.

BZ,
NFHS couldn;t use that one. It would make too much sense!

Tony you seem to be the man to ask regarding rules, so I want to be totally clear abt this.

A1 has the ball, A2 sets an illegal screen on B2. Under the new rule are you saying that we will treat it as it was a player control foul and no foul shooting for B2 if A is in the penalty.

Is that an correct assessment.

Review 4-12.

It's not that complicated.;)

The only tricky ones are:

Loose balls, remember team control continues with the last team in control.

Rebounds, fouls during rebounding could be common or team control. No TC during shot and rebounding action without a player gaining control. A1 shoots, A3 grabs the rebound then A4 fouls B2, and you have a TC foul. A1 shoots and A4 fouls B2 and you have a common foul and free throws if B is in the bonus.

Yes, it is. If A has team control and a member of A commits a foul, no FTs are shot by B unless the foul is intentiuonal, flagrant, or technical.

So my ? is this, what is teh logic of making this rule change.

Dosent that take away from good defense from the defensive team.

Basically to bring the NFHS rules in line with NCAA. I suppose the rationale would be to stay consistent with all fouls committed by the offensive team.


Not really - they may lose a few free throw opportunities over the course of a season, but they'll be gaining the ball back instead (think of how many off-ball offensive fouls you call in a game, then think of how many of those occur while the offended team is in the bonus.)

If A1 commits a player control foul, no FTs are shot. If A2 sets an illegal screen, B1 shoots FTs if B is in the bonus. What logic is there in that? Team is penalized twice for A2's foul, once by losing the ball and twice by B1 getting FTs.

Why? The defense gets the ball, don't that?

Further, if A2 sets an illegal screen, how is that good defense? That's simply a foul on A2. It has nothing to do with good defense.

[Edited by BktBallRef on Jul 31st, 2005 at 11:13 PM]

In reality taking a charge requires much better defense than running into an illegal screen, so wouldn't a PC foul penalize it more?;)

BZ we all know on a player control foul no one shoots, but based on this new rule we will be shooting less free throws and wont have to call a foul and walk all the way down the other side of the court just to shoot. I dont like it as a player, I could really care less as an official it really helps us as far as we dont have to remember who the person who is to be shooting freethrows at the other end is anymore. We dont have to go the length of the court to administer a free throw. We just put it in play at the POI.

BZ well now i am speaking as a player not an official, I would not like this call based on the fact that A1 has the ball A2 set an illegal screen on B1 and B team is shooting 1 and 1. Especially near the end of the game and we are down 1.

But if B3 fouls A3 off ball and A is in the 1 and 1 they get to shoot.

In my last post I was talking more as a player not an official. Does this help you out now with what I was saying.

[Edited by Love this Game on Aug 1st, 2005 at 07:08 AM]

I think there is a big fuss about a small change. Someone mentioned before about how little this will matter for free throws. It is not a big deal. Put the ball in play and continue.

The signal we use is also a small issue. Communication will be the key. Many tables in a high school game don't pay attention to whatever we do anyway. The use of our voices is lacking from what I've seen and not heard recently. We can still talk on the court can't we?

By the way, I have never used the team control signal in a college game and I've never had an observer say anything about it to anyone on any crew I've worked with. I have called fouls in these situations. I just try to make it perfectly clear what I have when I call the foul. YMMV

Tome I hear what you are saying, but it has nothing to do with a big deal, we all have our opinion and I could care less abt what signal to use. I just dont like the ideal from a players stand point. I love it as an official but I do still play. And most leagues and tournaments you play in plays under High School rules with some modifications.

I realize you're speaking as a player, but I can't let this one slide. After a team control foul, the ball is not put in play at the POI. Remember at the POI, Team A had the ball. So if we put the ball back in at the POI, we'd have to give it to Team A after that team committed the foul. The ball is always given to the offended team at the spot closest to where the team control foul occured.


If an official calls an illegal screen in the last minute of a one point game, s/he will be lucky to walk off the court in one piece. Your scenario is just not going to happen unless the kid goes into a 3-point stance and bull-rushes the defender. And no player is going to do that with a one point lead and 30 seconds left. Don't even worry about this scenario.

Just to add slightly to that, the POI and the spot closest to the foul could be different spots on any team control foul anyway. Forget "POI" on team control fouls.

Maybe, but we don't have any big deals to make a big fuss about, so we're just settling for second best. That's the way it is around here in August.

BTW, Love this Game, there will be <i> FEWER </i> foul shots...

I think I did say it will be fewer foul shots, and for the other post before yours.

I just dont like the rule change as a player, I like it as an official because no more walking the length of the floor to administer foul shots.

This is just my opinion and to answer your ? if A2 sets a screen and gains an advantage on B1 when he trys to get around it and moves in to B1 yes I will call it and you should to.

I love officiating off ball that is where all the action is.

I disagree. I disagree. I disagree What me worry?

http://www.warnerbros.com/madmagazine/img/alfredz.gif

I'm shocked. Shocked, I tell you!

I anxiously await the story of the next time (make that, the first time) you call a moving screen in the last 30 seconds of a one point game. That oughta be a good one.

Why wouldn't I call it?

Why wouldn't you call it?

Because at camp last year, I was involved in just such a game. Great game, one or two point game, with under 30 seconds to go. "Championship" game for the age group. To me, no big deal; but probably was important to the campers.

During the last time-out, a D1 assignor came onto the court to talk to the crew. Here is the one-sided conversation:

"This has been a great game and you guys have done a helluva job. Now, you see that tree over there? The one a quarter mile past the last cabin? If you call a foul now, it better be visible to the grandma who's sitting under that tree. Got it? Good."

Now, moving screens generally do not fall under that description, unless the kid gets down into a 3-point stance and flattens the defender. And that's not going to happen.

I wonder what your assignor friend might have said if an obvious illegal screen allowed a well guarded A1 to get open enough & pop in an uncontested 10 footer for the game.

In any event, I still disagree that it couldn't happen and I disagree that I wouldn't call it when it does happen.

I agree with Dan.

However, if <b>that</b> assignor</b> was <b>my</b> assignor, I'd agree with him too. To do otherwise would be...well...stoopid.

Sir I dont care if my mother came out and told me that, if an screen is set and that guy totally gains an advantage I am calling it.

1 point game team losing has teh ball, shooter runs the baseline and his teammate sets a screen as teh defender runs around the screener move into him and bumps him the shooter gets teh ball and makes the winning shot. Are you ok with the game being won that way, because you did not make the call.

That is chicken in my opinion. You have the shirt on and if you think that that play will change teh game so what call it.

Now dont call a little bump or a ticky tack foul. But if he was stupid enough to make the foul be strong enough to make the call and care less abt who cares.

I made a call like that 5 years ago, city championship. the coach that it went against and lost sees me every year and he says to me. Man i saw the play coming and you had the guts to call it. I get 3-4 games at his school every year.

Make the call. Make the call. Make the Call!!!!!!

And if you officiated such a great game why did he feel it necessary to come out on the court and tell you no to make that call. If it was such a great called game i see no reason for him to come out.

I think you will get more respect by making that call. Because at least people can say he/she was man enough to make it. If not you will be driving home with a look of guilt on your face.

[Edited by Love this Game on Aug 1st, 2005 at 02:30 PM]

To be honest, I don't care if your mother came out either. :)

Which way do you want it? Call the bump? Or don't call a little bump? I'm just asking.


At least three reasons:

1) It was camp. That's what happens at camp. The observer comes out to talk to you during TO's and halftime.

2) One of my partners had considerably less experience than my other partner and I had. He wanted to make sure that we all were on the same page.

3) He wanted to make sure that a well-officiated game to that point ended as a well-officiated game. With 15 years of experience, you must know that you are remembered for your last call. He wanted to make sure that we understood the last call has to be a good call.


I'm sorry, but I have absolutely no idea what you're saying here. It's not smart, but call it anyway?

What i was saying is this, even if it is not the call everyone wanted you to make if it is teh right call make it and be proud when you walk off the court that no matter what you made the right call. and that you could care less what anyone else thinks.

You have the stripes, you took the test, you passed, you do varsity games correct if so you call the best game you can, and if you upset someone with the call you made so what. if you make this call half of the gym is going to love you half will hate you.

If you dont make the call how would you feel driving home knowing that you di dnot make that call at all.

No what i am saying is this, call advantage disadvantage. If this guy is bumped but did not gain an advantage then let the play go, but if there is an advantage gained call it that is what i am saying. Advantage - DisAdvantage

No, it doesn't.

Good defense has little to do with a TC foul, most fouls would be bad/sloppy offense...pushing off, illegal screens, etc...about the only TC foul generated by good defense is the pass and crash play.

So if a PC foul is not, not rewarding good defense, how is a TC foul doing it?

As for B fouling and A gettting bonus FTs, so what. That is the penalty for fouling while on defense. The penalty for fouling while in control of the ball, player or team, is loss of ball.

With a TC foul the officials will go to the other end, we just won't be shooting FTs.

POI has nothing to do with this situation.

As long as the supervisor is suggesting that an obvious foul be not ignored, I'm fine with his statement. But if he's expecting me to ignore contact that's been called a foul during the entire game, then I guess it's plain to see why I'll never work D-1 ball.

I couldn't care less whether it's a one point game with 30 seconds left. Two years ago, I had a playoff game that went 4 overtimes. We called a foul on each team in the last 15 seconds of regulation. Both players missed the front end. In my last game of the season last year, a second ropund playoff game, we sent both teams to the line in the last 10 seconds.

So you don't mind it when your team is penalized twice for one infraction?

You have the ball. You drive the lane and lay it in. But wait! The trail official whistled your teammate for an illegal screen. So your team loses possession of the ball plus we're going to give B1 two FTs because your team has 10 team fouls.

So you like being penalized twice?

But if my partner fouls him the other team deserves to shoot the foul shots.

What is the use of being in the bonus if it is not going to be applied.

Isnt this the same A1 shoots as ball is goin in B3 fouls A3 and A is shooting in the bonus. A1 shot goes in and then A3 shoots foul shots.

Isnt that the same thing.

Basketball; i usually dont agree with you but I do to the point of being told what to call. There is a European camp that comes to my town every year, and i officiate it. It is good money but i dont like it when the guy who is big overseas tells us who not to call certain fouls against. (like dont call hand check on him, he is our defensive star). that is crazy.

He was NOT suggesting that an obvious foul not be called. Rather, he was saying, if it's there call it, but it should be an obvious foul to get a whistle in that situation.

Again, I don't think that was the point at all.

As for B fouling and A gettting bonus FTs, so what. That is the penalty for fouling while on defense. The penalty for fouling while in control of the ball, player or team, is loss of ball.


***************************
I am ok with the player control, but player off ball commits a foul and we are in the bonus they shoul shoot.

Would you be ok with it if you were on that defensive team.

Not judging you BZ but did you play the game, not making a personal attack.

I did and still do and I dont like it not saying that I wont administer it.

If B2 fouls A2 while A1 has teh ball and A is in the bonus A2 would shoot. (correct) not only are they getting to keep the ball but they are getting to shoot if in the bonus.

But now if A2 fouls B2 while A1 has the ball all you do is give the ball to B (even if they were in the bonus) (correct).

I could really care less as an official becuase all i have to do is administer it. but look at it as a player who is really getting that advantage!!!

Why? Why should it matter who is actually holding the ball? If I'm holding the ball and I commit a foul, no FTs. But if my teammate is holding the ball and I commit a foul, FTs. Why?

It's like that stupid pass/crash scenario. If you have a shot and crash, it's a PC, no FTs. Bit if you have a pass and then crash, it's 1-and-1. What sense does that make?

I think it's a good rule change, regardless of whether you play or officiate. Now everybody knows, if the foul is on the offense, then there are no FTs.

Uh, no, these plays are about as different as you can get. In BktBallRef's play, there is team control when the foul occurred and that would nullify a made shot. In your example, there is <b>no</b> team control with the shot in the air. The basket would count if it went in. Different rules apply entirely- always have and still do even with the new rule change.

Your example isn't applicable to a team control foul. It can't be when there is no team control involved. Apples and oranges iow.

They are not keeping the ball, they are shooting FTs. If they miss the defense has a chance to get the ball.

You are making it sound like they shoot FTs and then get the ball back, and that is a big difference.

The offense is not gaining an advantage, the defense is not getting disadvantaged.

Look at it this way:

B is ahead by 1 with 10 seconds left, in the bonus, are crappy free throw shooters, but great ball handlers and passers. A3 commits a foul on B5...B's worst FT shooter...while A1 is dribbling the ball. Under the new rule it's B's ball for a throw-in, they have a chance to run the clock and possibly avoid getting fouled and win the game.

Under your preferred rule, B5 comes down and bricks the first of a 1 and 1 and A gets another shot to win the game.

Again where is the disadvantage for team B in this situation?

This is what I will do, as an official i will enforce the rules to the utmost. As a player I dont like it at all.

But you never answered did you ever play the game.

I did not answer because it has absolutely nothing to do with the discussion.

From my experience officials that try too hard to officiate from the player's perspective and interpret the rules with that in mind tend to make the worst officials.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by blindzebra

Quote:

Originally posted by Love this Game Quote: Originally posted by blindzebra Quote: Originally posted by Love this Game As for B fouling and A gettting bonus FTs, so what. That is the penalty for fouling while on defense. The penalty for fouling while in control of the ball, player or team, is loss of ball. *************************** I am ok with the player control, but player off ball commits a foul and we are in the bonus they shoul shoot. Would you be ok with it if you were on that defensive team. Not judging you BZ but did you play the game, not making a personal attack. I did and still do and I dont like it not saying that I wont administer it. If B2 fouls A2 while A1 has teh ball and A is in the bonus A2 would shoot. (correct) not only are they getting to keep the ball but they are getting to shoot if in the bonus. But now if A2 fouls B2 while A1 has the ball all you do is give the ball to B (even if they were in the bonus) (correct). I could really care less as an official becuase all i have to do is administer it. but look at it as a player who is really getting that advantage!!! They are not keeping the ball, they are shooting FTs. If they miss the defense has a chance to get the ball. You are making it sound like they shoot FTs and then get the ball back, and that is a big difference. The offense is not gaining an advantage, the defense is not getting disadvantaged. Look at it this way: B is ahead by 1 with 10 seconds left, in the bonus, are crappy free throw shooters, but great ball handlers and passers. A3 commits a foul on B5...B's worst FT shooter...while A1 is dribbling the ball. Under the new rule it's B's ball for a throw-in, they have a chance to run the clock and possibly avoid getting fouled and win the game. Under your preferred rule, B5 comes down and bricks the first of a 1 and 1 and A gets another shot to win the game. Again where is the disadvantage for team B in this situation? This is what I will do, as an official i will enforce the rules to the utmost. As a player I dont like it at all. But you never answered did you ever play the game.

I did not answer because it has absolutely nothing to do with the discussion.

From my experience officials that try too hard to officiate from the player's perspective and interpret the rules with that in mind tend to make the worst officials.

[/QUOT

It does has somethign to do with the discussion, because I am looking at the rule as a player.

but when i put on my shirt yes some of my experience as a player comes in to play, but I am an official first and foremost and a good one.

i am not saying you or anyone in this board are good or bad because i dont know you at all.

all i am saying is this, if i was playing and i still do, i dont like the rule especailly someone who likes to play defense.

This is just a personal opinion.

And I think playing the game does help, it really helps when watching off ball. Just all my opinion.

No offense intended and I apologize if any was taken!!

I did not answer because it has absolutely nothing to do with the discussion.

From my experience officials that try too hard to officiate from the player's perspective and interpret the rules with that in mind tend to make the worst officials.

[/B][/QUOT

It does has somethign to do with the discussion, because I am looking at the rule as a player.

but when i put on my shirt yes some of my experience as a player comes in to play, but I am an official first and foremost and a good one.

i am not saying you or anyone in this board are good or bad because i dont know you at all.

all i am saying is this, if i was playing and i still do, i dont like the rule especailly someone who likes to play defense.

This is just a personal opinion.

And I think playing the game does help, it really helps when watching off ball. Just all my opinion.

No offense intended and I apologize if any was taken!! [/B][/QUOTE]I played the game. I refereed the game. For the record, I also don't agree with your take on this play at all. The rule is consistent now. It wasn't before.

LTG, you have yet to give anything to support your position that this rule is unfair to the defense.

Isn't the entire purpose of defense, from a player's point of view, to stop the other team from scoring and get the ball?

Does this rule in anyway interfere with that purpose?

As several posters have explained, how is a TC foul any different than a PC foul?

Why should which offensive player has the ball matter?

If anything it requires better defense to draw a PC foul, so why isn't that call more unfair?

This rule may come up so rarely that it is so, a non-issue. I have officated about 100 games this summer with TC fouls in the rules and we have called it 3 times with team B in the bonus. At least 1,500 to 2,000 foul calls and it was an issue THREE TIMES.

A3 sets a screen on B1, B1 runs over A3, A3 shoots if in the bonus.

A3 sets a screen on B1, as B1 runs around A3 moves into B1 and knocks B1 down all B1 gets is the ball.

I am finished you all have a nice day and evening
But You are correct :)

[Edited by Love this Game on Aug 1st, 2005 at 07:45 PM]

A1 crashes into B1 while going up to shoot, B gets the ball no FTs.

A1 crashes into B1 just after releasing the try, B gets the ball no FTs.

A1 crashes into B1 just after passing to A2, why should this play be any different than the first two?

I tried to make this same point earlier, but didn't get a response. Good luck. :)

Sorry just got to read this post, and haven't read it all.

Breathe guys.

IMO we have two things to worry about in this situation:

1)did the offense set a legal screen in your opinion.
2)did the offensive player coming off the screen catch the ball.

If the screener set a screen illegaly in your opinion that's one of those two variables, but keep watching the play, does the player coming off the screen catch the ball. If not and it was an illegal screen, I say play on. If he does, this is where the foul has to be what my teachers refer to as a "HIGH CERTAINTY" call meaning that you have to have no doubt in your mind that this was an illegal screen and this player gained an advantage from it. That is what I think Chuck is saying by referring to the old lady.

I am just expressing what I was taught. I was also told to remember that unless it is part of the play, then let it go if at all possible.

Relax junior.

Chuck & I have known each other since you were playing middle school basketball instead of working it. We know what to worry about, thanks.

1) Breathe guys.

2)If he does, this is where the foul has to be what my teachers refer to as a "HIGH CERTAINTY" call meaning that you have to have no doubt in your mind that this was an illegal screen and this player gained an advantage from it. [/B][/QUOTE]1) Breathe guys? <b>Breathe guys?</b> Lah me!

2) A "HIGH CERTAINTY" call? Every call we make out there had better damn well be a "HIGH CERTAINTY" call. Fouls, violations, out-of-bounds-- don't matter. We aren't supposed to blow the whistle unless we're certain about why we're blowing it. No guessing allowed.

No, you said <i> LESS </i> foul shots. (I'm just filling in for Mr. Grammar Guy, who's vacationing on the Riviera this week. I wish I. M. Shirley Wright would come back. I miss her.)

If, in your first example, A3 were to only get the ball every time, there'd never be any real penalty. The penalty is to change the balance of the situation to favor the offended team. Putting a player on the line favors the team. Giving the team the ball when they otherwise don't favors that team. Those in power have deemed that these penalties are of similar magnatude.

1) Breathe guys? <b>Breathe guys?</b> Lah me!

2) A "HIGH CERTAINTY" call? Every call we make out there had better damn well be a "HIGH CERTAINTY" call. Fouls, violations, out-of-bounds-- don't matter. We aren't supposed to blow the whistle unless we're certain about why we're blowing it. No guessing allowed. [/B][/QUOTE]

Jurrassic I know you know this. You are just trying to be hard on me because I am young. "High Certainty" is terminology in officiating. You have CERTAINTY, HIGH CERTAINTY, 50/50 CALLS, FOOL THE REFEREE, RSBQ, and things of that sort.

I never suggested guessing, but you have to be more certain of a call at the end of a close game, than you do 3 minutes into the game.

Have you been certain every time you blew the whistle when it went OOB on your line?

Just asking the question and would like to hear the response?

Do you think a trip, elbow flick, or eye poke could be an educated guess call? Have you ever called either of the three without knowing with "High Certainty" that it happened?

Jurrassic I know you know this. You are just trying to be hard on me because I am young. "High Certainty" is terminology in officiating. You have CERTAINTY, HIGH CERTAINTY, 50/50 CALLS, FOOL THE REFEREE, RSBQ, and things of that sort.

I never suggested guessing, but you have to be more certain of a call at the end of a close game, than you do 3 minutes into the game.

Have you been certain every time you blew the whistle when it went OOB on your line?

Just asking the question and would like to hear the response?

Do you think a trip, elbow flick, or eye poke could be an educated guess call? Have you ever called either of the three without knowing with "High Certainty" that it happened? [/B][/QUOTE]Tn, I could care less about your age. I do care that you're using terminology that I don't think you really fully understand yet at your current level of experience. I also care if you hand out advice to other opfficials that I think is clearly wrong.

Coupla points.....feel free to ignore them....

1) You shouldn't be making <b>any</b> call out there unless you are absolutely certain of it. End of story. Any doubt, swallow the whistle. If I'm not certain about an OOB call on my line, then I'm going to my partner(s) to see if they can help- <b>before</b> I make the call.
2) Any type of foul call- trip, elbow flick, eye poke- is <b>NEVER</b> an educated guess. If you don't know for sure, then let it go. NEVER GUESS!!
3) It doesn't matter when a foul occurs- at the beginning or at the end of a game. You shouldn't be calling a foul anytime unless you are certain it actually <b>is</b> a foul.

Huh? All the action?

Dan, do you really know Chuck?

RefTn, you age has NOTHING to do with anything! Your experience does. I think Jurrasic is trying to tell you that you should experience some of the things you talk about. Saying what someone told you without experiencing it is a no no.
Also, every illegal screen doesn't have to result in the offensive player catching the ball. If you use absolutes on plays like this you WILL get surprised.

Chuck, are you saying that you would't call an obvious screen that everyone can see if it happens at the end of a game? I think it would depend on what kind and where this illegal action takes place. I wouldn't say I absolutely wouldn't call this. I understand what you are saying though. :D

Dan and Chuck are best buds, Tom. Here's some pictures of them from the last camp that they attended:

http://two.shag-a-delic.net/drevilminimelayout.jpg

Pretty easy to tell which one is Chuck. :p

Tn, I could care less about your age. I do care that you're using terminology that I don't think you really fully understand yet at your current level of experience. I also care if you hand out advice to other opfficials that I think is clearly wrong.

Coupla points.....feel free to ignore them....

1) You shouldn't be making <b>any</b> call out there unless you are absolutely certain of it. End of story. Any doubt, swallow the whistle. If I'm not certain about an OOB call on my line, then I'm going to my partner(s) to see if they can help- <b>before</b> I make the call.
2) Any type of foul call- trip, elbow flick, eye poke- is <b>NEVER</b> an educated guess. If you don't know for sure, then let it go. NEVER GUESS!!
3) It doesn't matter when a foul occurs- at the beginning or at the end of a game. You shouldn't be calling a foul anytime unless you are certain it actually <b>is</b> a foul. [/B][/QUOTE]

Ok I just wanted to see your outlook on this. I have experienced alot of these situations, believe it or not. Most all the thoughts that come from my head to these posts were taught and drilled into my brain. I believe I do understand the terminology that I use.

I do this for a living. I have no other job or anything. All I do on days that I am not reffing is reading NCAA and NFHS rulebooks, terminology, tapes, and this forum. Thanks to you guys I have been able to throw out some misconceptions and you guys even got me doubting my mentor sometimes, but that is what I love about this forum. You guys are great even though you never agree with me and say it is because of my "lack of experience" and that is ok because I understand you have to be around a while before you gain acceptance. I can live with that.

I do hope that before my 1000th post that me and someone on this post agree with something that I have said. Maybe I will have my 7th year in by then and can have some kind of experience.

Like I said, what I wrote earlier and what I write in the future is all teaching. I don't believe in learning by yourself and on your own when it comes to officiating. You have to have great teachers, instructors, mentors to do well and be good at this profession. I personally feel I have those.

Everything you talked about has an easy explanation. It is called JUDGMENT. I agree that you should not guess, but there are many times over a game, a season, a career where you might not be completely sure, but you make a call anyway. I agree that it sounds great to never guess, but a game might dictate that you make a call you are not 100% sure about. Even in 3 Person there are plays where we do not see every little situation on the court clearly. Sometimes the actions of the players help us make a call (I am not talking about after the call). It is our judgment to know when it is appropriate to make a call or not. There are officials that see the same action and make different calls based on their judgment.

Peace

Yes, Dan and I have met at camps. Most recently, just a couple weeks ago, when Dan bailed out on the last two nights in order to ref good games, instead of our AAU excitement.

No, I'm not saying that you should pass on an obvious foul. What I am saying is that if you insert yourself into that kind of game at that point in the game, it had better be an obvious foul. That's all. I'm not saying swallow the whistle. I'm saying that everybody should know what you have as soon as the whistle blows. That's all.

Well I'm someone that agrees with you this time. When I speak of experience I talk about what goes on during games. You cannot get all the experience you need in 50 or 60 games because there will be something that happens you aren't ready for. A hostile crowd, a bad coach, two bad coaches, a troublesome player and a combination of these and endless other situations makes up your experience. You started this so I will say what I've said before: being able to read a rule book and type does not make someone a good official or one to be looked up to. You must be able to bring it on the court, plain and simple!

No, I'm not saying that you should pass on an obvious foul. What I am saying is that if you insert yourself into that kind of game at that point in the game, it had better be an obvious foul. That's all. I'm not saying swallow the whistle. I'm saying that everybody should know what you have as soon as the whistle blows. That's all. [/B][/QUOTE]

OK, you had me worried for a second.

Are you still going to Mickey's camp?

Yeah, how'd you know? :confused:

Quick question, sorry if it has been repeated but I couldn't read all 5 pages of this thread....

Say the lead in 3 person has a TC foul on a push-off in the blocks. What is the proper mechanic for reporting? Does the lead just take a few steps out onto the floor, report, and then handle the throw-in? Or are we supposed to switch? I'm new to 3-person due to my recent move and the only 3-person training I've had is NCAA mens where you just get the ball in play and go the other way without switch. I'm excited about finally getting to work 3-person on a regular basis. Actually, I'm just excited to work again since the move eliminated all summer ball.

Mregor

[Edited by Mregor on Aug 2nd, 2005 at 09:52 PM]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Mregor
Quick question, sorry if it has been repeated but I couldn't read all 5 pages of this thread....

Say the lead in 3 person has a TC foul on a push-off in the blocks. What is the proper mechanic for reporting? Does the lead just take a few steps out onto the floor, report, and then handle the throw-in? Or are we supposed to switch? I'm new to 3-person due to my recent move and the only 3-person training I've had is NCAA mens where you just get the ball in play and go the other way without switch. I'm excited about finally getting to work 3-person on a regular basis. Actually, I'm just excited to work again since the move eliminated all summer ball.

Mregor

[Edited by Mregor on Aug 2nd, 2005 at 09:52 PM] [/QUOTE

You go table side and report, who ever was table side either to C or T moves down to your spot. Then you sitate yourself to move down teh other end of teh court does that help

Tomegun do you think I can bring it by watching my tape?

You know what, I just thought about that. I didn't get your tape. Email me with the address you sent it to because I should have had it by now.

LTG, are you sure about this? I thought that the FED was going to do away with the switch in the backcourt in 3-whistle games. I don't have the '05-'06 manual yet, so I'm not sure what will happen. I would be mildly surprised if the FED mandates this switch in the backcourt.

We still switch, no matter what. The reporting official always goes table side.

As indicated by the answers above, there are multiple "proper" mechanics for reporting:

1) No long-switch
2) Always switch
3) Switch only if L was opposite the table (so L becomes tableside)

Different areas / different assigners have different preferences. <shrug>

Bob, won't the FED give us a "proper" mechanic this year?

Probably, but, as Jeff Rutledge posted, many states / local areas change the mechanics somewhat and FED "doesn't care".