I've been reading a recent thread on "Patient Whistle".

What it advocates is that in order to determine advantage/disadvantage prior to whistling a foul you should wait for the total play to un-fold.

If you determine that an offensive player was not put at a disadvantage by the foul, then you don't whistle.

I'd like people's opinion on:

1) If you apply this rule, then doesn't it mean that you would never have a "and 1" scenario. If you wait for the play to unfold, the basket would be scored, therefore there's no way a player would've been at a disadvantage (with the exception of a hard foul of course).

2) Aren't you asking from it from the fans and the coaches. You hear it all the time "late whistle ref ... you weren't sure were you???".

Jean

Not at all Jean. The rules state that if the contact does not prevent a player from committing normal offensive movement. If the shot goes up and the follow thru or the landing is not affected by the contact, you should pass on the call and rule the contact incidental.

I do not care what the fans think. Most camps I have attended clearly want the officials to see the beginning, middle and end of a play. So if you call a hand check when a dribbler is going to the hole, you might be taking away a very easy basket if you just blow the whistle at the first sign of contact. I have even in plays like this asked the coach, "Do you want the basket or the foul on the sideline?" They always say they would rather have the basket.

Peace

1) It just means to let the play develop a bit rather than having a reactionary whistle. Instead of blowing the whistle and then admonishing yourself for having a quick one, delay a bit and see if the whistle was really necessary. Don't penalize the offense with a whistle that stops play and prevents them from getting an easy bucket. You still have some and-one's, just not so many and not ticky-tack ones.

2) What the fans say matters none. The better you become as a ref, the bigger distance you will put between what you know and what they know.

Z

So what you're saying is that if the contact does prevent a normal offensive movement, then you call the foul and 1. For example, player A1 shoots, player B1 does a solid hit on the arm of player A1, balls goes in, you should call the foul. Correct?

If the hit is soft and the ball goes in, then no foul.

If the hit is soft and the ball does not go in, then is there a foul?



100% agree with your statement.

thanks for your reply
cheers,
Mr. Jean

My old signature line used to read:

"anticipate the play but not the call"

That was before I started watching Simpsons' re-runs during supper. But I digress.

Patient whistle:

1. See the whole play.
2. Wait for the whole play to develop.
3. Evaluate the contact.
4. Ask yourself "can I pass on this?"
5. Make your decision on whether to blow the whistle.

If you do this, you will have the quick whistle when you need it, and you will avoid those calls you wish you could take back.

Bottom line: coaches will occasionally complain about a late whistle. But they will ALWAYS complain about a ticky-tack call - and they should.

No, that is not what I am saying. Just because the shot goes in does not mean we should pass on the foul. If the follow thru on the shot is obstructed then I have a foul. If the contact that was caused by the offensive player, I have no foul. If the contact was caused by the defensive player and the shooter cannot land properly or their follow-thru was obstructed, I have a foul. The hardness of the contact is not relevant in my opinion. Sometimes the contact is very slight and you still have a contact. I just think you cannot get caught up in how hard the contact is and call fouls just based on the severity of contact. Contact can clearly be very severe (rulebook language not my own language) and still not be a foul.

I hope that helps.

In most cases, for me anyway, the timing has nothing to do with being fouled in the act of shooting. Usually it occurs before the shooting motion begins, so we are waiting to see if A can play through the contact and shoot or pass to an open teammate.

As for comments about late whistles, my favorite is, "Yeah, it was late, but it was right." :D

Keep in mind that good officiating philosophies require that some calls be made late. Patient and secondary whistles will always be timed a bit differently than the obvious foul in your primary. Strong mechanics and voice go a long way in preventing complaints about late whistles.

You use a strong whistle, close in and vocalize and most times you will hear very little.

Jean the idea is to avoid the ticky-tack foul calls, especially on the made basket. These happen to me mostly when I see a little contact and blow the whistle immediately, without seeing how much it affects the shooter. A good defender can make a little contact, but then back off a little, and the shooter isn't put at an illegal disadvantage. If you blow the whistle right when the first contact happens, you might be giving a chintzy "And-1". Especially at the higher levels of play, a lot of shooters can "play through" and don't need a foul called on every little bump. Remember, though, that a good solid foul still needs to be called, even if the ball goes in.

1) player up
2) player down
3) basket interference
4) goaltending
5) look at rebounding
That is some of the things I learned this weekend.

I heard the patient whistle concept explained this way this summer; "see the result of the contact and not just the contact". That has helped me alot.

Regarding fans comments, we've all made the most obvious call of the night and still heard it from the fans so forget them.

With regard to a "late" whistle, my comment to a coach is usually either that I was hoping to avoid calling a foul on HIS player or simply, "late, but great."

I like all the comments presented but one thing I want to stress is the concept of consistency and bring attention to the POE on rough play. Particularly with respect to the amount of contact you deem to be harmless or not a "whistleable" offense.

Many times officials will allow levels of contact that do nothing but increase the level of physical play to a feverpitch. This is a result of simple poor judgement in what is deemed to be a foul. A patient whistle is one thing but passing on contact just because a player was able to play through it, did not end up on the floor, or the 3rd row is nonesense. Their was a POE on agressive and rough play!!!!

Many times I see guys that have to tighten up their calls in the second half or the 4th quarter just to regain control of the game because of all the calls they passed on. This lack of consistency brings undersireable consequences. It's not just a coach screaming for a call, or the howling from the fans but you cannot ignore the safety of the players. There was a reason for the POE and I surmise in large part due to the fact that too much contact is being ignored when it should be called.

I guess experience will have to be your guide in knowing WHAT is a foul and WHAT can/should be passed on.



[Edited by Robmoz on Jul 21st, 2005 at 11:40 AM]

You make a good point, Chris, but I don't think it's germane to this particular thread. We're not talking about post play, which is where most rough play develops. We're talking about being patient on a drive to the basket or on an outside jumper.

Not taking anything away from your point, b/c I don't think anyone would disagree with you.

This is not true. I have had coaches say that they want the foul, particularly if it's the opposing team's star.

"Coach, your player was still able to blow by the defender."
"Coach, your player was still able to get to the basket."

You are right Chuck, the post play may be the primary area of reference (even in the POE). I wanted to bring attention to the drive to the basket and the handchecking as well. I see way too much contact being passed on even though the offensive player gets through it. Consistency in the application of what is legal vs. illegal contact should not be overshawdowed by the risk of the ticky-tack or chintzy moniker of a call.

Having said that, I prefer to run a tight game so that I am not forced to make significant adjustments. I do not get complaints from AD's, evaluators, or assigners quite the contrary. As a result, when I have a patient whistle or delayed whistle call I do not have to sell anything because I have been consistent in my applications.

I think you've got the right idea. I do think that many less-experienced officials have a tendancy to equate "patient whistle" with "let 'em play". There is a difference. I'm still working on that aspect; it's somewhat easy to understand the concept, but sometimes difficult in practice. But, that's the beauty of camps!

Does not have to apply to you.
 

I am talking about my experiences, not everyone else's experiences. You very well might have had a coach that wants the foul 30 feet away from the basket and not the easy lay up. Coaches around here want the easy basket.

Peace

My point was made and is similar to what Rut is saying, a handcheck that steers a kid and keeps him from advancing is a foul but a handcheck that A1 still fights thru could be left alone. I hate hearing the whistle just as the kid breaks thru and is laying the ball in the hole. Referee the result of the contact and not just the contact.

I suppose in a perfect world we could start right off with an obvious handcheck foul and there would be no more the rest of the night.

This is my point. Make that call from the git go and you may not have to deal with making more difficult decisions on contact as the game progresses.

Calling advantage/disadvantage differs from night to night, depending on the quality of athletes on the floor. I see no problem with being patient and waiting for a play to develop, it's something I am actually working on getting better with. Along these lines, last weekend I worked the Iowa Games (think state olympics) and had a 4A team made up of good players from a bunch of large schools against a small 1A school's V/JV. It was a nightmare to call. The 1A fans really didn't like us but we were trying to call the game the same on both ends. It was possibly the hardest game to call I've ever had.

Why's that? :confused:

Folks, Mr. Jean's original question didn't differentiate between post play, a drive for the basket, or shot taken from the floor, even though he did ask about the possibility of eliminating the and-one foul shot.

There are a number of reasons to call the foul even though the offensive player somehow managed to get the bucket to drop. Some of these for me are things like: if I fail to call this now, will it continue, and will I have to deal with an out of control game later; if I fail to call this now, will it be likely to cause someone to get hurt; what message am I sending (to the players, the coaches and the benches)by calling this foul, or by passing on it? There are many more. I never stray far from the idea that a part of my job is to ensure a safe place to conduct a game.

Using the above criteria, an example of a time I would most CERTAINLY call a foul no matter if the ball goes in or not would be: A1 dribble drives to the basket and just as A1 becomes airborn for the layup and is about to move past B1, B1 pokes A1 in the ribs with a finger or two. This can be tricky because sophisticated offensive players have been known to fake this particular foul, so it is ESSENTIAL to have great position to be able to make this call. You can always tell when this has happened because you see the small poke to the ribs, and you watch while A1's whole body goes into a minor convulsion.

The contact might very well be slight, practically nothing at all for an agressive offensive player, yet I submit to you that B1 gained a significant advantage on the play. Further, should I pass on this I fear the message I'm sending to everyone. I hope this helps a wee bit and hasn't completely confused you.

Lastly, (at least for this posting, wink)

What's a fan?

To sum this all up, IMHO a patient whistle is paramount to good officiating. I could tell you some horror stories about times when I've screwed it up, so its something I always pre-game and am constantly working to improve.

Great Question by the way Jean.

[Edited by Joe McCain on Jul 22nd, 2005 at 03:57 AM]

Wow, Jo McCain, I have never seen an offensive player fake someone poking him/her in the ribs. :D I guess I've never seen an offensive player fake it when someone actually makes contact with them ever. Just kidding.

It is up to all of us what we allow in our game and what we don't allow. If we are talking about whether a handcheck re-routes a player or not we could be consistent to see the play through. Mr McCain's example isn't really about seeing the whole play IMO, it is more about eliminating some BS early in the game.

I've always considered this to be a really ticky-tack call. The shooter isn't being pushed or disadvantaged in any way. The poke isn't enough to hurt.

Does anybody call this on a regular basis?

You're setting up a dangerous precedent with this. I'm with Chuck, contact on this is VERY minor, and if you start calling it, be prepared to call all sorts of other little niggling touches, too. I'd have to be VERY sure that the shooter was harmed - isn't THAT more in line with "patient whistle"? Your take seems just the opposite.

I've been reffing for almost 10 years and I've NEVER seen either of these things happen - especially the convulsions part. :confused:

You'd better be able to sell it, too. Because everyone else in the gym will be wondering what the hell you just called.

I don't think I've ever called it. If it's enough to get my attention I'll have a quick word with the guy doing the poking ("knock that sh1t off").

Wow, I thought I was the only one that doesn't do this and hasn't seen this faked. :D

The "pro" move is a quick jab or tap to the elbow of the shooting arm or a quick nudge to the hip of a jumpshooter beside you. Some coaches still teach those subtle l'il moves. Reggie Miller used both of those his whole career.

A finger jab that makes a shooter on the drive's "whole body go into a minor convulsion"? Never seen that one personally. Have seen sumthin' like a quick push on the hip of the shooter by the defender just as the shooter gets airborne. I just treat the contact on that one like any other shooter contact--if I thought it affected the shot, I called the foul. If not, fuggedaboutit.

Right, and I'll call that every time, b/c that bump on the elbow really does affect the flight of the ball. The poke to the belly doesn't, as far as I can tell.

I've seen some players that were absolutely great with the elbow tap. I remember saying to one guy years ago sumthin' like " You got me that time but you won't get me again". He laughed and replied "you wanna bet?". Next half, I got a shooter in my primary screaming at me because his jumpshot just ended up amongst the cheerleaders, and this clown of a defender is smirking at me and whispering "told you so". Not much I could do but grit my teeth and mutter under my breath. I knew he did it but I didn't see it- so I couldn't call it. At least he whispered it to me after he did it instead of laughing out loud at me.

Wow! Its fun to have gotten such a charged respons from all of you. The feedback kinda proves my point for me though. (ie. See the whole play, patient whistle, advantage-disadvantage all conspire to help a mere mortal like me make a good call)

If you haven't seen this particular cheep foul ... stick around, you might. All of you guys have been right too, not much contact, yet it is difficult to make the layup. My initial experience with this foul was almost a mirror image of what Jurassic discribed. I missed the first one, and found myself wondering why the offensive play just kinda flailed around. The defender was all proud of himself for getting one past me. Nothin' "Ticky-Tack" about it.

Fortunately, I haven't seen if very often, but Man Oh Man if you ever do, you might want to get it right.

Thank you very much for that very informative and constructive tip. I'm sure I'll have a much better season of 6th grade girls games.

You made it to 6th grade girls games?

Cool! Maybe if I start calling this foul I'll make it there too!

;)

Well, if I'm ever that lucky that I'm able to stick around long enough to attain <b>your</b> vast amount of experience and knowledge, Joe, hopefully then I will be able to get that call right-- just like you. Until then, I can only dream......

Lah me.

Thank you very much for that very informative and constructive tip. I'm sure I'll have a much better season of 6th grade girls games. [/B][/QUOTE]

Rainmaker, thank you for the laugh! From the jist of your posts here, I wouldn't be surprised to discover that you are a D1 official somewhere. I appreciate being given a chance to stop taking myself so seriously.

The reality for me is that I find six grades girls games VERY difficult to call. I never quite know what I should be calling in that type of game.

Tisk, Tisk

Get a good angle to see through the play.
Follow the shooter all the way up and all the way down.

Rainmaker, thank you for the laugh! From the jist of your posts here, I wouldn't be surprised to discover that you are a D1 official somewhere. I appreciate being given a chance to stop taking myself so seriously.

The reality for me is that I find six grades girls games VERY difficult to call. I never quite know what I should be calling in that type of game. [/B][/QUOTE]

Hey, you up there on that pedestal.

You mind telling us down here:

Who you are
What part of the country you are from
What level you work
How long you've been officiating
Do you always make this kind of entrance

Joe, what we're telling you is that we've all seen this cheap foul. But most of us don't think it's worth calling. It's not difficult to finish the shot or lay-up most of the time, with a minor tap to the belly. It doesn't really put the shooter at any disadvantage, so most of us (viz., everybody except you, apparently) let it go.

You're taking a boatload of crap from people on the forum, Joe. And this kind of comment is the reason. Tone down your act a little. Whether you realize it or not, you're coming across as a know-it-all, and a pretty obnoxious one.

So if we've gotten the wrong impression of you, stick around and make constructive posts without the condescending tone. If you really are "an insufferable know-it-all" (as Professor Snape would say), then do everyone a favor and move on to McGriff's.

Maybe we'll be doing these on Sunday, Dan. BTW, I'm leaving tonight to make sure I get there on time :)

Unless you're going by time machine you'll be late.

Camp was last Sunday.

Unless you're going by time machine you'll be late.

Camp was last Sunday. [/B][/QUOTE]Oh my.....

No problem, Chuck. I just called Peabody. He's on the way with his Wayback Machine.
http://www.toonopedia.com/peabody.jpg
You're welcome......

Where's that smiley giving the finger. . . ?

Hmmmm....looks like after 3 times that one doesn't work anymore.

See you Sunday.

:D