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-   -   "Unqualified" Partner or official (https://forum.officiating.com/basketball/21137-unqualified-partner-official.html)

drinkeii Sun Jul 03, 2005 10:53am

Quote:

Originally posted by Snaqwells
Another thing to think about that no one has mentioned specifically. A lot of the varsity level summer league games are worked by officials trying to move up to higher levels. My first varsity level games were during a summer league. You know what? I flopped.
I was just learning the concept of advantage-disadvantage, and I let way too much go. Coach complained a bit, but eventually talked to the administrator after a small shoving match between players, saying "tell them to quit calling this like a college game." I got the point and we tightened it up a bit, but I doubt that coach would like to have me back.


And, coach, I wouldn't even consider challinging the official with "you'd have to T me twice to get me out of here." Either he'll be wise enough to take that final comment as a flagrant T, or he'll give you one now, and one more when you stand up next time. It may be unfortunate, but that's how it goes sometimes.
Finally, remember it's explicitly against the rules to try and influence an official's calls; punishable by technical foul. We let a lot go on that, but the rule is there if he decides to enforce it.

Considering the fact that the official #1) wasn't calling anything to start with, and #2) didn't know the rules (since he wasn't even an official), I doubt he would have even thought of this.

This was not that case of an official trying to move up - it was a completely unqualified person allowing unsafe things to occur on the floor.

During the last 18 games that team played, through 2 seasons at this facility, this was the only game where I had any complaints. Again, I draw the line at safety - when my players start getting hurt because of a lack of willingness to do their job or incompetance (the latter being this game), I feel I have every right to complain. Just as I feel I have every right to complain when an official blows a call because of a complete misinterpretation of the rules. I don't complain about jusgement calls - that's the officials job.

I think there are far too many officials out there that officiate with the attitude "My way is the only way and I'm right even when I make the wrong call." I always feel, as an official, I would rather get the call right, even if I look bad because of it, than make the wrong call when everyone knows it's wrong. This is why I have no problem with help from my partner if he saw something different.

gordon30307 Sun Jul 03, 2005 07:32pm

Quote:

Originally posted by drinkeii
Quote:

Originally posted by Snaqwells
Another thing to think about that no one has mentioned specifically. A lot of the varsity level summer league games are worked by officials trying to move up to higher levels. My first varsity level games were during a summer league. You know what? I flopped.
I was just learning the concept of advantage-disadvantage, and I let way too much go. Coach complained a bit, but eventually talked to the administrator after a small shoving match between players, saying "tell them to quit calling this like a college game." I got the point and we tightened it up a bit, but I doubt that coach would like to have me back.


And, coach, I wouldn't even consider challinging the official with "you'd have to T me twice to get me out of here." Either he'll be wise enough to take that final comment as a flagrant T, or he'll give you one now, and one more when you stand up next time. It may be unfortunate, but that's how it goes sometimes.
Finally, remember it's explicitly against the rules to try and influence an official's calls; punishable by technical foul. We let a lot go on that, but the rule is there if he decides to enforce it.

Considering the fact that the official #1) wasn't calling anything to start with, and #2) didn't know the rules (since he wasn't even an official), I doubt he would have even thought of this.

This was not that case of an official trying to move up - it was a completely unqualified person allowing unsafe things to occur on the floor.

During the last 18 games that team played, through 2 seasons at this facility, this was the only game where I had any complaints. Again, I draw the line at safety - when my players start getting hurt because of a lack of willingness to do their job or incompetance (the latter being this game), I feel I have every right to complain. Just as I feel I have every right to complain when an official blows a call because of a complete misinterpretation of the rules. I don't complain about jusgement calls - that's the officials job.

I think there are far too many officials out there that officiate with the attitude "My way is the only way and I'm right even when I make the wrong call." I always feel, as an official, I would rather get the call right, even if I look bad because of it, than make the wrong call when everyone knows it's wrong. This is why I have no problem with help from my partner if he saw something different.

One of my favorite songs Summertime, summertime, sum sum summertime, summertime ....Take a chill pill guy. AAU, shoot outs, games with running clocks etc. etc. what do you expect.

stmaryrams Sun Jul 03, 2005 09:01pm

Quote:

Originally posted by JRutledge

One of the reasons people send their kids to private schools is not because of the effort the teachers give, because there is a prestige that school brings. Parents are not paying as much for just the education, but the perception of what an education from those schools give. Going to a Harvard or Yale does not automatically mean you are smarter. But when you graduate the perception of the person that went there is like night and day to other college institutions.

Rut,

I have to disagree with you on this statement. It may be that way where you are and in some parts of the country, but in my town there is a big difference in the quality of education between public and private schools.

Now n the suburban schools, sure they maintain a high level of education but our inner city schools are a mess.

My sone graduated with 17 National Merit Scholars in a class of 120. Now this is the exception rather than the norm (usually 3 to 7) but it is still the facts.

As far as Harvard, Yale and the Ivy league, I cannot comment other than their admission standards are exceptional. Most students couldn't get into those schools even if they could afford it.

That's my rant - I do however agree with you on the quality of summer ball officiating. It can be uneven depending on the officials in the contest. I have even made a comment to a coach this summer on a call he thought I missed that "It's summer ball for the officials too coach"

JRutledge Mon Jul 04, 2005 11:43am

Quote:

Originally posted by stmaryrams


Rut,

I have to disagree with you on this statement. It may be that way where you are and in some parts of the country, but in my town there is a big difference in the quality of education between public and private schools.

Now n the suburban schools, sure they maintain a high level of education but our inner city schools are a mess.

My sone graduated with 17 National Merit Scholars in a class of 120. Now this is the exception rather than the norm (usually 3 to 7) but it is still the facts.

I am not talking about all schools. I live in a surrounding area that has very good public schools. Many of the students that excel go to any school they wish. Even directly in Chicago there are a couple of public schools that are second to none. Whitney Young in Chicago is a great example. Whitney Young has many students that some of the most accomplished in Illinois and around the country.


Quote:

Originally posted by stmaryrams
As far as Harvard, Yale and the Ivy league, I cannot comment other than their admission standards are exceptional. Most students couldn't get into those schools even if they could afford it.
I was not talking about admission standards. I was talking about what happens when the students get there. Since you brought up admission standards, it is not like admission standards are just based on grades or tests. If your parents attended a prestigious university, it is likely that school will admit you if you have some general standards. When the Supreme Court ruled on the Michigan Affirmative Action case a few years ago, it was clear that where people lived, whose family attended the university and many other factors not based on any merit factored into who they admitted in the university. Attending a university is as much about what you did in HS as to what the university thinks you will do the environment of their school.

Quote:

Originally posted by stmaryrams
That's my rant - I do however agree with you on the quality of summer ball officiating. It can be uneven depending on the officials in the contest. I have even made a comment to a coach this summer on a call he thought I missed that "It's summer ball for the officials too coach"

:D

Peace

SMEngmann Tue Jul 05, 2005 02:39am

I want to approach this discussion from a couple points because I recently had a similar experience from an official's perspective.

First I want to address the "I draw the line at safety" mantra. This is a cop out, especially to blame the officials. If the game is truly "unsafe" then both teams are out of control. Every coach who's ever used that line in a game of mine is basically saying, "The other team is out of control so you'd better control them, but my team's playing perfectly fine." A coach has far more control over what his players do on the court then do the officials, and a coach genuinely concerned with preserving safety would recognize if the officials were "incompetent" and start coaching in such a way that forces his players to play within the rules. Accusing officials of creating an unsafe situation solely on the basis of their officiating is gutless in my opinion. Good officiating can keep control of games, but the players and coaches are the causes of a game getting out of control in the first place. If the two teams played on the street with no officials, the same crap would have happened, good officials do a lot to clean it up, bad officials simply allow the game to develop as it would have with no officials. With two well-disciplined, well-coached teams these types of problems tend not to occur. A failure by the officials to prevent problems is not and shouldn't be confused with the cause of the problems.

In relation to my recent experience, I feel that the more experienced official needs to recognize his partner's shortcomings and step up to control the game. That means he has to be a lead and pick up the slack for his partner(s) in that game and get those "need to get" calls. As an official, the worst thing that can happen in my game is for a game to fall out of control because I feel it is my responsibilty to control the game. There are many elements that can ruin a game, including the actions of coaches, but ultimately the crew lives and dies as one and if I see a partner who is over his head or struggling, I have to step up my game, and I'd expect my partners to do the same for me. In my opinion, I'd rather take all the heat and have to T a coach than lose control of the game. I recently worked several 3 person games with unqualified officials and got through a few, but one spun out of control and rather than blaming my partners for it, I felt absolutely horrible afterward because I wasn't able to work well enough with my crew to control the situation. I guess my point is that the most qualified official has a responsibility not just to call the game but to run the crew, control and manage the game.

Sorry for the lengthy post.

gsf23 Tue Jul 05, 2005 08:57am

Drinkeii..

I'd just forget it, you are not going to get anyone here to agree with you or offer you any advice if you come on here complaining about officiating, especially if you mention the word coach.

SeanFitzRef Tue Jul 05, 2005 08:58am

SM,

I agree with you in the aspect that you feel you have to control the game, but in some situations you can only do what you can do. You can't be three people, or start calling all over the court. You have to put the other people on notice that they need to make the calls in their area.

Dave,
As many have stated, summer officiating is uneven at best. It is a chance for unqualified officials to work higher level games. It is a chance for 'qualified' officials to make extra money. It is a chance for league admins to make money and get teams in to play. It is up to the league staff to get the 'best their money can buy'. If they have a ton of games, but are offering a small sum of money per game, you won't get the best level of officiating. I play competitive softball all summer, and I need the break from year-round basketball. I'll still work some games here and there to stay in the flow, but I will only do it when I feel like it. As an official also, you have to learn to wear multiple hats in the situation you were in. But you did hurt your credibility when you made the comments you did in your original post. As JRut said, we can't help with your concerns here, we can only tell you how it is.

Man In Blue Tue Jul 05, 2005 10:57am

First safety concerns. If you feel your kids are in danger it is your responsibility as a coach/ parent to remove your child. If that means calling the game off or leaving the facility it is your responsibility. I have done both and have not returned to the league/ tournement.

The worst thing a TD can do is put an experneced official with a volunteer or an uncertified official. Don't get me wrong, this is how younger officials learn. I am talking about the college kid and or parent helping out. It is a disaster waiting to happen.

mick Tue Jul 05, 2005 11:17am

Quote:

Originally posted by Man In Blue
The worst thing a TD can do is put an experneced official with a volunteer or an uncertified official. Don't get me wrong, this is how younger officials learn. I am talking about the college kid and or parent helping out. It is a disaster waiting to happen.
"Worst thing" seems a bit over-stated. ;)

The directors of high school team camps in this area of the Upper Peninsula would like to get registered officials for boys, but can't get them at $8.00 per game.

For the girl's camp, college women team members seem to be preferred by the camp director.

I have worked these camps with registered officials (new and used), college players and even coaches.

'Tain't the end of the world by a long shot, and some of the college athletes have a genuine interest in proper officiaitng.

mick

TigerBball Tue Jul 05, 2005 01:57pm

OK, every HS ref that can live off of what they make being a ref, reply now.

No one, hmmmmmm.

I am a coach, and I take my teams to summer team camps, and I understand that I am not going to have qualified refs during the day at these camps. Most adult refs have other jobs, that is where they are, so what do we get during the day, college kids taking summer classes at whatever school we are at. They are making a little extra cash.

This is the way it is and we just have to deal with it. Getting upset is not going to help, you are just going to get a ref that is already in over his head frustrated and worrying about you, and then you really will see bad calls.

The key is to get with the administrator between games and ask him to talk to a ref about the way he is handling the game. I do this all the time.

I might say "Administrator, see that kid over their, could you encourage him to get up and down the court more and tell him not to be afraid to call the fouls."

As a side note, If you are an assignor for a summer camp, it has been my experience that if you must rely on un-qualified refs, female college students put a lot more effort into the game than males. The guys are so worried about looking cool and all they want to do is shoot between quarters and at half time, the ladies are their to prove that they can handle themselves in a male dominated camp and they usually do a great job.


JRutledge Tue Jul 05, 2005 02:45pm

Quote:

Originally posted by TigerBball
As a side note, If you are an assignor for a summer camp, it has been my experience that if you must rely on un-qualified refs, female college students put a lot more effort into the game than males. The guys are so worried about looking cool and all they want to do is shoot between quarters and at half time, the ladies are their to prove that they can handle themselves in a male dominated camp and they usually do a great job.


Not sure what gender has to do with this discussion. Maybe you have had some anecdotal experiences with female refs that were positive, but that does not mean it is the rule. I have seen all genders and races of officials "dog it" during the summer leagues. I have also seen people in the same background hustle and give it their all. The bottom line is many of the most qualified officials are not available to work all summer leagues. Where I live we are lucky to even get one female to ref out of a hundred officials. Almost no female refs work many boy's games or are even get asked to work any boy's games to my knowledge. Not sure what your statement had to do with the officiating community as a whole as it relates to hustling and "giving a damn" during summer games.

Peace

ChrisSportsFan Tue Jul 05, 2005 03:16pm

Quote:

Originally posted by drinkeii
Quote:

Originally posted by Snaqwells
Another thing to think about that no one has mentioned specifically. A lot of the varsity level summer league games are worked by officials trying to move up to higher levels. My first varsity level games were during a summer league. You know what? I flopped.
I was just learning the concept of advantage-disadvantage, and I let way too much go. Coach complained a bit, but eventually talked to the administrator after a small shoving match between players, saying "tell them to quit calling this like a college game." I got the point and we tightened it up a bit, but I doubt that coach would like to have me back.


And, coach, I wouldn't even consider challinging the official with "you'd have to T me twice to get me out of here." Either he'll be wise enough to take that final comment as a flagrant T, or he'll give you one now, and one more when you stand up next time. It may be unfortunate, but that's how it goes sometimes.
Finally, remember it's explicitly against the rules to try and influence an official's calls; punishable by technical foul. We let a lot go on that, but the rule is there if he decides to enforce it.

Considering the fact that the official #1) wasn't calling anything to start with, and #2) didn't know the rules (since he wasn't even an official), I doubt he would have even thought of this.

This was not that case of an official trying to move up - it was a completely unqualified person allowing unsafe things to occur on the floor.

During the last 18 games that team played, through 2 seasons at this facility, this was the only game where I had any complaints. Again, I draw the line at safety - when my players start getting hurt because of a lack of willingness to do their job or incompetance (the latter being this game), I feel I have every right to complain. Just as I feel I have every right to complain when an official blows a call because of a complete misinterpretation of the rules. I don't complain about jusgement calls - that's the officials job.

I think there are far too many officials out there that officiate with the attitude "My way is the only way and I'm right even when I make the wrong call." I always feel, as an official, I would rather get the call right, even if I look bad because of it, than make the wrong call when everyone knows it's wrong. This is why I have no problem with help from my partner if he saw something different.

After 18 games, someone on your team is going to have some bumps, bruises and hopefully not but possibly some twists.

TigerBball Tue Jul 05, 2005 03:21pm

If you would just read my comment, that you even copied and added to your comment, in it there is the line, "it has been my experience". Nowhere did I say, " I think this should be a rule". All we have is our experiences and that is what we relate here in an effort to gain better understanding.

However, since you seem to know it all and have discounted my point on all counts, I will relate why I made this comment.

In 14 years of attending team camps with my 7th grade boys teams, many of the schools have used members of the mens and ladies basketball teams as the refs for the camps. At this one camp that I have been to almost every one of these 14 years about 25% of the refs were female. I can say without an exception that the ladies "give a damn" a whole hell of a lot more than the men do.

We are talking about unqualified refs for summer team camps. So what I would like to convey to assignors is not to ignore the ladies that are willing to ref in boys camps. It has been my experience that everyone that I have run across has put forth the kind of effort that I expect out of an inexperienced college student trying to ref middle school games.

It has not been my experince that the guys do.

I attribute this to the ladies trying to prove themselves in a male dominated situation.

As I stated, this is my experience, and I think it has merit. I do not think it is a steadfast rule nor did I ever lead on that it was.


ChrisSportsFan Tue Jul 05, 2005 03:27pm

Quote:

Originally posted by TigerBball
OK, every HS ref that can live off of what they make being a ref, reply now.

No one, hmmmmmm.

I am a coach, and I take my teams to summer team camps, and I understand that I am not going to have qualified refs during the day at these camps. Most adult refs have other jobs, that is where they are, so what do we get during the day, college kids taking summer classes at whatever school we are at. They are making a little extra cash.

This is the way it is and we just have to deal with it. Getting upset is not going to help, you are just going to get a ref that is already in over his head frustrated and worrying about you, and then you really will see bad calls.

The key is to get with the administrator between games and ask him to talk to a ref about the way he is handling the game. I do this all the time.

I might say "Administrator, see that kid over their, could you encourage him to get up and down the court more and tell him not to be afraid to call the fouls."

As a side note, If you are an assignor for a summer camp, it has been my experience that if you must rely on un-qualified refs, female college students put a lot more effort into the game than males. The guys are so worried about looking cool and all they want to do is shoot between quarters and at half time, the ladies are their to prove that they can handle themselves in a male dominated camp and they usually do a great job.


I will say that my Daughter went to a team camp a couple of weekends ago and she said that ALL the refs looked Hs or College aged. She said it was not very well officiated and that their coach made a comment that they need to be careful and don't get hurt. She said that it was pretty rough but she still had fun and benefitted from the experience.

To the coaches, if you're really worried about the officiating, find those team camps in your area that are associated with a referee camp. You should get excellently called games as usually the ______ officials are not going to pay money to attend these camps. I'm not saying that people who don't attend camps are any less, worse or whatever officials, but you generally will not see a college student who has no aspirations of getting better at one of these camps.

JRutledge Tue Jul 05, 2005 04:25pm

Quote:

Originally posted by TigerBball
If you would just read my comment, that you even copied and added to your comment, in it there is the line, "it has been my experience". Nowhere did I say, " I think this should be a rule". All we have is our experiences and that is what we relate here in an effort to gain better understanding.

However, since you seem to know it all and have discounted my point on all counts, I will relate why I made this comment.

In 14 years of attending team camps with my 7th grade boys teams, many of the schools have used members of the mens and ladies basketball teams as the refs for the camps. At this one camp that I have been to almost every one of these 14 years about 25% of the refs were female. I can say without an exception that the ladies "give a damn" a whole hell of a lot more than the men do.

We are talking about unqualified refs for summer team camps. So what I would like to convey to assignors is not to ignore the ladies that are willing to ref in boys camps. It has been my experience that everyone that I have run across has put forth the kind of effort that I expect out of an inexperienced college student trying to ref middle school games.

It has not been my experince that the guys do.

I attribute this to the ladies trying to prove themselves in a male dominated situation.

As I stated, this is my experience, and I think it has merit. I do not think it is a steadfast rule nor did I ever lead on that it was.


I understood your entire post and just wanted to make it clear that not all of us have had that experience. I have seen bad female and male officials. Some officials regardless of what their background or gender are just getting how to call the game and others that do not. That really was all I was trying to say. Even if someone is trying hard does not mean they are going to do a good job or call the game consistently.

No matter who an official is, some will be working games they are not used to. I know many female officials that get a chance to work boy's games they never get a change to work during the regular season (not my choice, just reality). I had to step up my game when I first moved here because I was consistently working teams and talent I was not used to seeing on a regular basis. Now I must have done alright because more and more opportunities came my way based on what I did during the summer. Unfortunately, many officials do not do very well. That is just the nature of the beast called summer basketball.

I also want to slightly disagree with Chris for a second. Sometimes Referee camp games can be the worst officiated games all summer. I guess it depends on what kind of camp is being run. I worked a two day camp last year and the clinicians were so upset about the first day (I did not officiate that day) they made sure when the second day officials came to the camp that they actually went of their way to talk about how bad the first day was and officials need to "blow their whistle." Unfortunately many officials that work camp games are just learning very basic things. Camps are a way to teach officials very basic concepts and philosophies. The officials that are the most accomplished might not be anywhere to be found. At least that is what I see when I attend camp.

Peace


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