I worked a set of games a couple of weeks ago with a partner whose mechanics seemed a little off. I chalked this up to the fact that he had worked 11 games in a row the day before, and 5 before I got there that day.

Then, after about a game and a half, I noticed he didn't have a PIAA patch on his shirt. This, coupled with the wierd mechanics, prompted me to ask at halftime if he was a high school official. He said, no, I've been helping out the assignor for these camp games for 3 years. I'm a college player.

This raised some concerns. He made some obviously incorrect calls, based on not knowing the rules, and also tended to ignore a decent amount of contact that I was in no position to call. He also made a comment when I mentioned to one of the girls about lane restrictions on free throws, and she said "Oh, I didn't know that", he said "I didn't know that either". Not a comment you want coming from an official, stating that they didn't know the rules.

As a coach, I had a non-qualified official work with a very good official, several weeks ago on a game. It was extremely high contact, but little was called, and almost nothing by the non-high school official. He followed the ball, missing a large number of hip shoves on shots that several times resulted in my players landing awkwardly on the floor or falling to the floor, and one rolled ankle came out of that as well. He never looked off the ball, regardless of where he was on the floor. I complained a number of times, until he came over and told me I needed to be quiet or I would get thrown out. I resisted the impulse to say that he needed to T me up twice to throw me out (I doubt he could justify a flagrant for my complaints... no language was involved - I was just asking him to call some of the contact down low before someone else got hurt), especially since there was a minute and a half left in the game. I didn't find out until 2-3 days later that it wasn't even a HS official on the game, when his partner, who I've worked with several times, came over and apologised for his partner (the non-qualified official) and his actions during the game. I could tell the qualified official was trying, but it just didn't keep the game under control. This was a rec league game, BTW, HS JV Boys.

Any suggestions on how to handle either of these situations? Seems like it isn't such a great idea to have people that don't know what they're doing reffing HS Varsity and JV games, regardless of wether they're camp games or rec league or whatever.

Drinkeii, You are going to have situations like that. The best things I can suggest is either do not place your teams in situations like that or ask the person who are running the tournament if they have their liability insurance pay up just in case someone gets hurt and their parents would like to start litigation due to unqualified personnel being involved. I am not against kids making money on the however, I do have a problem if they do not understand the rules. Because both of our A$$es are on the line if someone decides to start litigation. my two cents.

And as an official, you thought that a girl yelling "ball, ball, ball" was unsporting?

Physician, heal thyself.

Also known as "buh-bye, credibility".

You knew you had uncertified, untrained officials doing your game. Instead of doing the obvious and complaining to the person who was saving the bucks by hiring those non-officials in the first place, you'd rather put on a show from the bench.

Lah me.

Had you read the complete post, you would have realized that I did not know it was a non-certified official until 3 days later when his partner approached me and apologised. Had I known at the time, I would have gone to the person in charge and complained. I assumed, at the time, I was just dealing with an official who was not very good, not a non-official. As for unsportsmanlike, I don't feel as a coach asking the officials to make calls to keep the players safe is out of line, especially when I was not using any kind of inappropriate language or comments. That is all I was doing - complaining about a lack of extremely obvious calls by one official. I honestly wish I had a video tape to show what I mean by obvious - when a player's hips move 2 feet to one side because of a shove when they are in the air to take a shot, and this happens 20-30 times during a game, this is what I'm complaining about.

I have learned a lot being both a coach and an official. I have come to accept that officials have a huge variety of what they will accept as a foul or not, regardless of what the rules say. I have no problem accepting their judgement calls, as long as they are fair and unbiased and consistent. (and I don't mean "Call it both ways" - I hate that comment - I mean calling the same actions the same way from end to end and team to team for the duration of the game - some teams play more aggressively and foul more, generating more foul calls) The players can adjust, if the officials are consistent. If the officials are ignoring one kind of foul, and it is getting kids hurt, and it happens a number of times, this is where I feel I need to speak up. If I swear at an official, I would expect to be thrown out. If I question their lack of making calls when kids are getting hurt, I would hope that they would start to make calls to keep the players safe. They may not. That is their choice. But I draw the line at player safety. I have, on several occasions, been very close to ending a game by pulling the kids off the court before any more get hurt because of a game that the officials choose not to control. This was one of those times. The kids were extremely upset, and I was thinking about pulling them. But their sportsmanship (which in general, my players are very good about - they don't retaliate on the court) held out, and we finished the game, battered, but ok except for one rolled ankle.

So as I said, I assumed I had qualified officials - it wasn't until the next game when the second official approached me out of the blue and apologised, along with informing me that his partner was not a basketball official, and he knew from the start of the game that it was going to be bad because of that.

As for the ball ball ball thing - saying it, ok - screaming it at the top of your lungs 2 inches from another player's face? In any sport, except maybe football (and basketball apparently), that would be considered unsportsmanlike. In basketball, apparently it is not, as was evidenced by the discussion in the other thread.

Welcome to the real world.
 

You said this happened 3 weeks ago. That means that it was not during the regular season or during a time when most "qualified" officials is doing other things. You are going to get officials that either are just plain available or do not care that much during this time of the year. I understand that coaches like your self want to win, I have never heard of a team that won anything important during the summer or off-season. Of course this is a great time to get some experience for player, but it is just the summer.

Where I live we have a lot of summer leagues, tournaments and shootouts going on. Many of the officials are not officials that would be working that caliber of games when the season starts. So what you explained in not very uncommon around here.

Peace

Welcome to the real world? I'm not going for sarcasm here - I'm raising what I consider to be a reasonable concern.

I would think that facilities and assignors would take the time to make sure they have reasonably qualified officials for the level of games that they are giving them - otherwise, it would seem to open up a can of worms in terms of liability. I'm not likely to act upon this presumed liability, but parents of my players might be so inclined.

I am in an unusual situation as a coach. Our school doesn't have athletics - we are an academic magnet high school, and we farm our kids out to other local schools for HS sports. The team(s) I coach are kids from our school, playing to get better, playing for fun, and playing to learn to work together as a team. These are the three goals I give them when we start. Win or lose, I don't care, and I make a point of this to the kids - I don't care if we get beat by 40... if they played a good game, I'm happy with them, and so far, have found that they are happy with themselves once they get over the fact that they lost. I just want them to get better - many of my players go on to play HS sports for another school. I am, however, concerned for their safety, and do expect that whatever league we sign up to play in, that it will be a concern of the facility and assignor as well. I don't believe this is an unresonable expectation.

I have always considered, as a official, my first responsibility is to the safety of the players. Second, to the rules, and third, to game flow. Many officials seem more concerned with game flow than safety. This seems to be a rather callous and inappropriate attitude. I understand there are inherent risks in the game, but there are inherent risks in everything we do in life - when there are people in place to help keep the participants safe, that should be their primary concern.

[Edited by drinkeii on Jul 3rd, 2005 at 01:26 AM]

Yes, welcome to the real world. I do not know about you, but basketball is not the only thing I do with my life. I have other things going on. I just got back from being out of town for a couple of days. I came back and I wanted to spend some time with my family. Officiating basketball is not my top priority at this time of year. I know for a fact I am not the only one that feels that way either. So yes, you will get officials that normally are not as experienced or talented. The assignor cannot make people do things they do want to do. I work baseball too and I do not make myself available during the summer. When I work summer baseball, I work often with people that are not as "qualified" or would not work the level of kids they are umpiring.


If you think safety is an issue because "qualified," then find some more money and pay enough money to make it worth the while of the "qualified" officials. Until then, you get what you pay for. If you do that, problem solved.

Peace

The minute I read, "Players are getting hurt and nothing is getting called and it happens several times a game," all credibility is lost.

Zip, nada, zilch, zero.

If you think safety is an issue because "qualified," then find some more money and pay enough money to make it worth the while of the "qualified" officials. Until then, you get what you pay for. If you do that, problem solved.

Peace [/B][/QUOTE]

Something got lost in the grammar here. The first part of the paragraph makes no sense. Besides, if an official is offered the game, and chooses to accept the game, I would hope that they are qualified, and if they do so, they should do their best, regardless of the pay. Many varsity officials officiate in these leagues - I'm concerned with the ones (even though it is only a few) who refuse to do their best because they're not being paid as much as for a varsity game. I don't care if they get a little sloppy on mechanics - I'm concerned when they choose not to make calls that keep the game under control and the players safe. Many comment that the game takes longer if they make calls - even knowing that it is a running clock. This makes no sense at all.

If the idea of pay was the only consideration, people better stop sending kids to Catholic schools - I made half of what I do now in the public schools. I didn't work half as hard. I didn't do half as much work as I do now. I did my best. I would hope that everyone would do so in whatever they choose to put their time and effort into. I officiate because I enjoy it - not for the money - that is just a side benefit.

The term "qualified" is a very subjective term. You might think someone is qualified to work a game and I might think they have no business working at all.

Just because someone works varsity game, does not mean they are the best people for the games you are talking about. This is something you need to take up with the assignor, not anyone here. We cannot help you with your concern. All we can do is tell you why things are the way they are and it is up to you to take steps to change it.

One of the reasons people send their kids to private schools is not because of the effort the teachers give, because there is a prestige that school brings. Parents are not paying as much for just the education, but the perception of what an education from those schools give. Going to a Harvard or Yale does not automatically mean you are smarter. But when you graduate the perception of the person that went there is like night and day to other college institutions. It has been proven at both Harvard and Yale there has been a problem with grade inflation. Teachers would not give C, D or F grades, because there was this culture of not hurting anyone's feelings or ruining any students future. Just think of how many Presidents have graduated from both schools and were not the best students.

Now back to the officiating discussion. I give my best too, but I would never claim it was the same effort that I give in the regular season. I do not work many 4 and 5 games in the regular season as I do in the off-season.

Peace

I'm not talking Harvard or Yale - I'm talking about the local catholic gradeschools or highschools. There is some prestige associated with one high school in our area, but a number of people coming out of there who haven't been able to read, but were sports stars, have raised some concerns, of course. I'm talking about situations where you're sending your kids to these schools, and expecting a good education - not expecting because the teachers are paid half of what public school teachers are that they will only give half the effort due to lack of pay.

I do agree that it is difficult to do 4-5 games the same way you would do one. I seem to be able to do 3 reasonably intense games without too much drop off in level of hustle, then it drops considerably. This is why I ask not to be given long stretches of games, and assignors have been accommodating in this regard. I'd rather walk out with a few less $$ and a feeling that I did a good job, than more money and feel like I didn't really earn it. And yes, I know, this isn't a common attitude... more money, less effort is the mantra of most people these days it seems.

Private schools regardless of where they are tend to have prestige that most public schools do not. It does not matter if it is a Harvard or Yale or just a school like Brother Rice or a Driscoll High School in my area. These schools have a social, academic and financial prestige that comes with attending those schools. The prestige of the school is really important when you have many successful people that have attended those schools over the years. Parents are not just sending their kids to schools like that because they think the teachers are giving a great effort. It might be a factor for some, but I would bet there are many other factors at play.

Well that sounds great. I am glad you want to take less money and summer league games are the same as regular season games in your mind. The reality it that attitude is the exception that I have seen. I know I do not share your attitude. I do the best for the situation that I am in. I do not treat summer league games the same way I do as regular season games. Many times I am just trying to survive. The effort I give is secondary. I have worked a few games in the past few weeks where there was no air conditioning in the gym and it was near 100 outside. I know I was not working my hardest in those situations. I was trying to make it through the games as much as what I called and what I did not call.

Peace

I read the first complete post. I read this complete post too. I formed the identical conclusion from both.

Keep up the open and public complaining about the officials, coach. Don't come here and whine if you get your butt tossed though. It's what you deserve.

Lah me.

And that is where you are wrong, Dave. No sarcasm intended, but, yes. . . welcome to the real world. Organizers and even some assignors don't care who is on the court, as long as there are stripes out there. That's just the way it is. Nobody realizes how important good officiating is until they get really bad officiating.

Another thing to think about that no one has mentioned specifically. A lot of the varsity level summer league games are worked by officials trying to move up to higher levels. My first varsity level games were during a summer league. You know what? I flopped.
I was just learning the concept of advantage-disadvantage, and I let way too much go. Coach complained a bit, but eventually talked to the administrator after a small shoving match between players, saying "tell them to quit calling this like a college game." I got the point and we tightened it up a bit, but I doubt that coach would like to have me back.


And, coach, I wouldn't even consider challinging the official with "you'd have to T me twice to get me out of here." Either he'll be wise enough to take that final comment as a flagrant T, or he'll give you one now, and one more when you stand up next time. It may be unfortunate, but that's how it goes sometimes.
Finally, remember it's explicitly against the rules to try and influence an official's calls; punishable by technical foul. We let a lot go on that, but the rule is there if he decides to enforce it.

Considering the fact that the official #1) wasn't calling anything to start with, and #2) didn't know the rules (since he wasn't even an official), I doubt he would have even thought of this.

This was not that case of an official trying to move up - it was a completely unqualified person allowing unsafe things to occur on the floor.

During the last 18 games that team played, through 2 seasons at this facility, this was the only game where I had any complaints. Again, I draw the line at safety - when my players start getting hurt because of a lack of willingness to do their job or incompetance (the latter being this game), I feel I have every right to complain. Just as I feel I have every right to complain when an official blows a call because of a complete misinterpretation of the rules. I don't complain about jusgement calls - that's the officials job.

I think there are far too many officials out there that officiate with the attitude "My way is the only way and I'm right even when I make the wrong call." I always feel, as an official, I would rather get the call right, even if I look bad because of it, than make the wrong call when everyone knows it's wrong. This is why I have no problem with help from my partner if he saw something different.

One of my favorite songs Summertime, summertime, sum sum summertime, summertime ....Take a chill pill guy. AAU, shoot outs, games with running clocks etc. etc. what do you expect.

Rut,

I have to disagree with you on this statement. It may be that way where you are and in some parts of the country, but in my town there is a big difference in the quality of education between public and private schools.

Now n the suburban schools, sure they maintain a high level of education but our inner city schools are a mess.

My sone graduated with 17 National Merit Scholars in a class of 120. Now this is the exception rather than the norm (usually 3 to 7) but it is still the facts.

As far as Harvard, Yale and the Ivy league, I cannot comment other than their admission standards are exceptional. Most students couldn't get into those schools even if they could afford it.

That's my rant - I do however agree with you on the quality of summer ball officiating. It can be uneven depending on the officials in the contest. I have even made a comment to a coach this summer on a call he thought I missed that "It's summer ball for the officials too coach"

I am not talking about all schools. I live in a surrounding area that has very good public schools. Many of the students that excel go to any school they wish. Even directly in Chicago there are a couple of public schools that are second to none. Whitney Young in Chicago is a great example. Whitney Young has many students that some of the most accomplished in Illinois and around the country.


I was not talking about admission standards. I was talking about what happens when the students get there. Since you brought up admission standards, it is not like admission standards are just based on grades or tests. If your parents attended a prestigious university, it is likely that school will admit you if you have some general standards. When the Supreme Court ruled on the Michigan Affirmative Action case a few years ago, it was clear that where people lived, whose family attended the university and many other factors not based on any merit factored into who they admitted in the university. Attending a university is as much about what you did in HS as to what the university thinks you will do the environment of their school.

:D

Peace

I want to approach this discussion from a couple points because I recently had a similar experience from an official's perspective.

First I want to address the "I draw the line at safety" mantra. This is a cop out, especially to blame the officials. If the game is truly "unsafe" then both teams are out of control. Every coach who's ever used that line in a game of mine is basically saying, "The other team is out of control so you'd better control them, but my team's playing perfectly fine." A coach has far more control over what his players do on the court then do the officials, and a coach genuinely concerned with preserving safety would recognize if the officials were "incompetent" and start coaching in such a way that forces his players to play within the rules. Accusing officials of creating an unsafe situation solely on the basis of their officiating is gutless in my opinion. Good officiating can keep control of games, but the players and coaches are the causes of a game getting out of control in the first place. If the two teams played on the street with no officials, the same crap would have happened, good officials do a lot to clean it up, bad officials simply allow the game to develop as it would have with no officials. With two well-disciplined, well-coached teams these types of problems tend not to occur. A failure by the officials to prevent problems is not and shouldn't be confused with the cause of the problems.

In relation to my recent experience, I feel that the more experienced official needs to recognize his partner's shortcomings and step up to control the game. That means he has to be a lead and pick up the slack for his partner(s) in that game and get those "need to get" calls. As an official, the worst thing that can happen in my game is for a game to fall out of control because I feel it is my responsibilty to control the game. There are many elements that can ruin a game, including the actions of coaches, but ultimately the crew lives and dies as one and if I see a partner who is over his head or struggling, I have to step up my game, and I'd expect my partners to do the same for me. In my opinion, I'd rather take all the heat and have to T a coach than lose control of the game. I recently worked several 3 person games with unqualified officials and got through a few, but one spun out of control and rather than blaming my partners for it, I felt absolutely horrible afterward because I wasn't able to work well enough with my crew to control the situation. I guess my point is that the most qualified official has a responsibility not just to call the game but to run the crew, control and manage the game.

Sorry for the lengthy post.

Drinkeii..

I'd just forget it, you are not going to get anyone here to agree with you or offer you any advice if you come on here complaining about officiating, especially if you mention the word coach.

SM,

I agree with you in the aspect that you feel you have to control the game, but in some situations you can only do what you can do. You can't be three people, or start calling all over the court. You have to put the other people on notice that they need to make the calls in their area.

Dave,
As many have stated, summer officiating is uneven at best. It is a chance for unqualified officials to work higher level games. It is a chance for 'qualified' officials to make extra money. It is a chance for league admins to make money and get teams in to play. It is up to the league staff to get the 'best their money can buy'. If they have a ton of games, but are offering a small sum of money per game, you won't get the best level of officiating. I play competitive softball all summer, and I need the break from year-round basketball. I'll still work some games here and there to stay in the flow, but I will only do it when I feel like it. As an official also, you have to learn to wear multiple hats in the situation you were in. But you did hurt your credibility when you made the comments you did in your original post. As JRut said, we can't help with your concerns here, we can only tell you how it is.

First safety concerns. If you feel your kids are in danger it is your responsibility as a coach/ parent to remove your child. If that means calling the game off or leaving the facility it is your responsibility. I have done both and have not returned to the league/ tournement.

The worst thing a TD can do is put an experneced official with a volunteer or an uncertified official. Don't get me wrong, this is how younger officials learn. I am talking about the college kid and or parent helping out. It is a disaster waiting to happen.

"Worst thing" seems a bit over-stated. ;)

The directors of high school team camps in this area of the Upper Peninsula would like to get registered officials for boys, but can't get them at $8.00 per game.

For the girl's camp, college women team members seem to be preferred by the camp director.

I have worked these camps with registered officials (new and used), college players and even coaches.

'Tain't the end of the world by a long shot, and some of the college athletes have a genuine interest in proper officiaitng.

mick

OK, every HS ref that can live off of what they make being a ref, reply now.

No one, hmmmmmm.

I am a coach, and I take my teams to summer team camps, and I understand that I am not going to have qualified refs during the day at these camps. Most adult refs have other jobs, that is where they are, so what do we get during the day, college kids taking summer classes at whatever school we are at. They are making a little extra cash.

This is the way it is and we just have to deal with it. Getting upset is not going to help, you are just going to get a ref that is already in over his head frustrated and worrying about you, and then you really will see bad calls.

The key is to get with the administrator between games and ask him to talk to a ref about the way he is handling the game. I do this all the time.

I might say "Administrator, see that kid over their, could you encourage him to get up and down the court more and tell him not to be afraid to call the fouls."

As a side note, If you are an assignor for a summer camp, it has been my experience that if you must rely on un-qualified refs, female college students put a lot more effort into the game than males. The guys are so worried about looking cool and all they want to do is shoot between quarters and at half time, the ladies are their to prove that they can handle themselves in a male dominated camp and they usually do a great job.

Not sure what gender has to do with this discussion. Maybe you have had some anecdotal experiences with female refs that were positive, but that does not mean it is the rule. I have seen all genders and races of officials "dog it" during the summer leagues. I have also seen people in the same background hustle and give it their all. The bottom line is many of the most qualified officials are not available to work all summer leagues. Where I live we are lucky to even get one female to ref out of a hundred officials. Almost no female refs work many boy's games or are even get asked to work any boy's games to my knowledge. Not sure what your statement had to do with the officiating community as a whole as it relates to hustling and "giving a damn" during summer games.

Peace

After 18 games, someone on your team is going to have some bumps, bruises and hopefully not but possibly some twists.

If you would just read my comment, that you even copied and added to your comment, in it there is the line, "it has been my experience". Nowhere did I say, " I think this should be a rule". All we have is our experiences and that is what we relate here in an effort to gain better understanding.

However, since you seem to know it all and have discounted my point on all counts, I will relate why I made this comment.

In 14 years of attending team camps with my 7th grade boys teams, many of the schools have used members of the mens and ladies basketball teams as the refs for the camps. At this one camp that I have been to almost every one of these 14 years about 25% of the refs were female. I can say without an exception that the ladies "give a damn" a whole hell of a lot more than the men do.

We are talking about unqualified refs for summer team camps. So what I would like to convey to assignors is not to ignore the ladies that are willing to ref in boys camps. It has been my experience that everyone that I have run across has put forth the kind of effort that I expect out of an inexperienced college student trying to ref middle school games.

It has not been my experince that the guys do.

I attribute this to the ladies trying to prove themselves in a male dominated situation.

As I stated, this is my experience, and I think it has merit. I do not think it is a steadfast rule nor did I ever lead on that it was.

I will say that my Daughter went to a team camp a couple of weekends ago and she said that ALL the refs looked Hs or College aged. She said it was not very well officiated and that their coach made a comment that they need to be careful and don't get hurt. She said that it was pretty rough but she still had fun and benefitted from the experience.

To the coaches, if you're really worried about the officiating, find those team camps in your area that are associated with a referee camp. You should get excellently called games as usually the ______ officials are not going to pay money to attend these camps. I'm not saying that people who don't attend camps are any less, worse or whatever officials, but you generally will not see a college student who has no aspirations of getting better at one of these camps.

I understood your entire post and just wanted to make it clear that not all of us have had that experience. I have seen bad female and male officials. Some officials regardless of what their background or gender are just getting how to call the game and others that do not. That really was all I was trying to say. Even if someone is trying hard does not mean they are going to do a good job or call the game consistently.

No matter who an official is, some will be working games they are not used to. I know many female officials that get a chance to work boy's games they never get a change to work during the regular season (not my choice, just reality). I had to step up my game when I first moved here because I was consistently working teams and talent I was not used to seeing on a regular basis. Now I must have done alright because more and more opportunities came my way based on what I did during the summer. Unfortunately, many officials do not do very well. That is just the nature of the beast called summer basketball.

I also want to slightly disagree with Chris for a second. Sometimes Referee camp games can be the worst officiated games all summer. I guess it depends on what kind of camp is being run. I worked a two day camp last year and the clinicians were so upset about the first day (I did not officiate that day) they made sure when the second day officials came to the camp that they actually went of their way to talk about how bad the first day was and officials need to "blow their whistle." Unfortunately many officials that work camp games are just learning very basic things. Camps are a way to teach officials very basic concepts and philosophies. The officials that are the most accomplished might not be anywhere to be found. At least that is what I see when I attend camp.

Peace

The team camp I am attending next month I am paying to attend. It is a girls' HS team camp and there will be 15 less experienced officials such as myself partnered with more veteran officials to do 5 games over the weekend and to watch 5 games. I am going in order to improve and also to be seen as I live in a sparsely populated area and am mostly seen by the guys in my area. I figure to pick up some good habits along with good advice on game management.

Exactly what I'm talking about. You're obviously not a _____ official as you are concerned with getting better and actually doing something about it.

My basic rule for tournaments and team camps:

1. Paid certified officials (at least a majority of them)

2. Training staff available before during and after games.

3. Maximum games for tournament fee.

4. Full size courts that are age appropriate.

I am tired of groups earning money, "big money" running tournaments that do not meet these basic qualifications. It is our fault as coach/ parents for entering poorly run tournaments just to play. Skip a few bad tournaments and do a little more practice and teaching and everyone will be better off.

I agree - how do you find out which ones have these kind of officials?

Call the TD. Ask questions. And then when you do not enter a tournament call the TD and tell them why. Normal consumerism. Don't just enter a tournament because you want to play.