reffing the screens

[Love this Game]

you answered it yourself, a screener who had a legal screnning position. (Key Word (HAD)).

If there is enought contact to where the screener gained an advantage if there was contact then it is a block all the way.

does that help you at all let me know?

[refTN]

Originally posted by Jimgolf
Along the lines of this topic, what about "leaners" (those players that have legal position for a screen, but the defender goes around, so the screener leans to the side to make his position wider)?

How much leeway do you give to "leaners", or is any contact enough to warrant a foul call?

Jim this is a good question. the screener can go into what is called a "firm up" position, which watching it you have to be aware of because it looks like he is leaning but he is staying within the base of his body.

A "firm up" position is when a kid is setting up for a screen and he knows he is not going to get hit square in the chest, he knows he is going to get hit just slightly off the center of it so he will move pretty much just his upper body over to one side of his base putting all his weight on one leg, but still being in an upright position.

In this case though you do have to watch if he gets out of his base or throws a chicken wing or sticks a knee out, etc.
Be very careful in calling this an illegal screen.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally posted by refTN

Jim this is a good question. the screener can go into what is called a "firm up" position, which watching it you have to be aware of because it looks like he is leaning but he is staying within the base of his body.

A "firm up" position is when a kid is setting up for a screen and he knows he is not going to get hit square in the chest, he knows he is going to get hit just slightly off the center of it so he will move pretty much just his upper body over to one side of his base putting all his weight on one leg, but still being in an upright position.

In this case though you do have to watch if he gets out of his base or throws a chicken wing or sticks a knee out, etc.
Be very careful in calling this an illegal screen.

Who told you that one? If you move your upper body over to one side so that the contact was outside of the normal vertical plane of the screener, then it's an illegal screen. Even in the .......wait for it......SEC.

NFHS rule 10-6-1--"A player shall not .....impede the progress of an opponent by....bending the body into other than a normal position". Leaning your torso sideways to contact an opponent outside of your vertical plane isn't a "normal position".

"Firm up position"?

Firm base is OK. Leaning the torso above a firm base isn't.

[M&M Guy]

Originally posted by Jurassic Referee

Firm base is OK. Leaning the torso above a firm base isn't.

Oooh, I love it when you talk dirty.

I don't really want to get into a microcosim-type argument over what would be legal and what wouldn't be (such as, just how far out can the elbows be until it's illegal - 1", 3 1/2"? Or how far can a player lean until it's illegal?) I guess that's where being aware of the defense helps - if you know the defensive player had LGP, that player can move to maintain that position, and we have to decide who got to that point of contact first. I know when I'm moving fast (ok, well fast for me...) I know I'm not straight up, but I'm leaning a little in the direction I'm going. So it comes down to our judgement whether the defense is trying to take a little extra space by leaning, especially if the LGP is in a standing position.

[refTN]

JR this is totally legal and I this came straight out of the mouth of an SEC official, but he used it in the scenario of a charge.

I am saying in this position you keep your vertical plane because in almost all cases when you set up for a screen or take a charge your legs are always a little further apart than your shoulders and that determines your vertical base or space.

On top of that think of it like a charge if the kid is fixing to take a hit he is aloud to move to absorb emminent contact, hence he will firm up or slightly move to take the hit in the torso.

Why should a kid not be aloud to "firm up" in the case of a screen.

I think I did not explain a "firm up" position well enough but I don't know how to explain you just have to see it. That is how I came to understand what it was.

[ChuckElias]

Originally posted by Jurassic Referee

Who told you that one? If you move your upper body over to one side so that the contact was outside of the normal vertical plane of the screener, then it's an illegal screen. Even in the .......wait for it......SEC.

"Firm up" is a phrase I first heard from an NBA ref. Since the SEC is assigned by Mr. Guthrie, and he implements a lot of NBA philosophies at his camps, I would not be surprised if the SEC officials allow a player to shift their weight to one side (but not outside) of their vertical plane. This is -- I think -- what is meant by "firming up".

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally posted by M&M Guy

Oooh, I love it when you talk dirty.

I don't really want to get into a microcosim-type argument over what would be legal and what wouldn't be (such as, just how far out can the elbows be until it's illegal - 1", 3 1/2"? Or how far can a player lean until it's illegal?) I guess that's where being aware of the defense helps - if you know the defensive player had LGP, that player can move to maintain that position, and we have to decide who got to that point of contact first. I know when I'm moving fast (ok, well fast for me...) I know I'm not straight up, but I'm leaning a little in the direction I'm going. So it comes down to our judgement whether the defense is trying to take a little extra space by leaning, especially if the LGP is in a standing position.

Um, do believe that you're confusing guarding and screening there, M&M, ol' buddy. You can be moving when guarding somebody and still have LGP. To set a legal screen, y'all better be stationary unless the screener and the screenee are both moving in the same path and direction. On a screen, you're looking for contact outside the normal position of the torso. Leaning sideways ain't a "normal" position.

Legal Guarding Position and Legal Screening Position are completely different animals with completely different criteria.

[refTN]

Mr.Elias I could not have used less words to sum it up better. Thank you. I had no clue how to explain it.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally posted by ChuckElias

"Firm up" is a phrase I first heard from an NBA ref. Since the SEC is assigned by Mr. Guthrie, and he implements a lot of NBA philosophies at his camps, I would not be surprised if the SEC officials allow a player to shift their weight to one side (but not outside) of their vertical plane. This is -- I think -- what is meant by "firming up".

Yup, and he'd better not be have moved outside the normal vertical plane that he was in when he first set the screen. If contact did occur outside of the initial vertical plane of the screener,then it's an illegal screen even though the contact may still be on the outer edge of the torso. Iow, you're taking your chances if you lean.

"Firm up" is just setting yourself solidly to take the screening contact, no matter how you do it.

[M&M Guy]

Originally posted by Jurassic Referee
Um, do believe that you're confusing guarding and screening there, M&M, ol' buddy. You can be moving when guarding somebody and still have LGP. To set a legal screen, y'all better be stationary unless the screener and the screenee are both moving in the same path and direction. On a screen, you're looking for contact outside the normal position of the torso. Leaning sideways ain't a "normal" position.

You know, you're right. As I re-read things, I was confusing the two. And I knew that. I just need more sleep. I've been tossin' and turnin' a lot since my Cubbies waited to have their June Swoon until July. But, that's for another thread. In this case, I'm leanin' towards leanin' not bein' legal.

[Mark Dexter]

Originally posted by refTN
Mr.Elias I could not have used less words to sum it up better. Thank you. I had no clue how to explain it.

Ugh.

Chest tightening . . .

Can't breathe . . .

Should I take this, or should I wait for Gendarme Grammaire?

[blindzebra]

Originally posted by Jimgolf
Along the lines of this topic, what about "leaners" (those players that have legal position for a screen, but the defender goes around, so the screener leans to the side to make his position wider)?

How much leeway do you give to "leaners", or is any contact enough to warrant a foul call?

Foul.

Coaches need to teach screens better. It is a passive act and contact is not needed to make the screen effective.

Got to get the players that make themselves "bigger" to assure contact.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally posted by Mark Dexter
[/B]

Should I take this, or should I wait for Gendarme Grammaire? [/B][/QUOTE]Shouldn't that be M. Gendarme de Grammaire?

[rainmaker]

Originally posted by refTN
On top of that think of it like a charge if the kid is fixing to take a hit he is aloud to move ...

But can he "aloud" in someone's face, within two or three inches?

Sorry, I try not to be the Madchen der Grammatische, but this error was too funny to pass by.

[SeanFitzRef]

I've heard this statement a lot form coaches: " S/He put the elbows out on the screen and almost hit my kid!! That's a foul!"

An illegal motion isn't always a foul. In cases like this, I have stated to the coach that since no contact was made, there is no foul to call. I also make a point to warn the offending playr to keep arms/elbows down. If it happens again, make sure there is contact first, then get the illegal screen. I always report it as a block to the table, and I guess that's right because no evaluator has ever told me to change.