I LOVE how 4 days of talks led to a new CBA. Take that NHL!!!

Another strike by the NBA would've been costly and I personally like watching the League, so I'm glad there's no delay.

Any thoughts on the minimum age requirement? Racial discrimination like Jermaine O'Neal said or sound move by the NBA and union? IMO as an educator, I think the minimum of 1 year in college is a small, but important development tool for today's young people.

[Edited by Dribble on Jun 21st, 2005 at 11:11 PM]

My thoughts on the minimum age requirement being raised to 19 is that it does nothing for the NBA. One year does not guarantee any additional level of maturity for an individual at that stage in their life. Just look at the "problem people" in the NBA; and for that matter the NFL, MLB, etc. They are not always the 18 year olds that have the issues as many would believe. Although it may not be directly racially discriminatory in nature, it does have impacts in a racial context. Just look at the demographics of those entering the NBA fresh out of high school. As for football, there is often a need to do additional physical growth and development, as well as "learning" the game in which it is played in the NFL, and I can therefore understand the NFL's age limit. But basketball's nuances are minor at the HS, NCAA, and NBA level.

Just my $0.02.

I'm not really sure how age and race are related. Last time I checked, people of all races age at the same rate, one day per 24 hours. A foreign kid wouldn't be able to get into the league at 18 just like an African-American kid. I think Jermaine is reaching for that one.

I will say, it does make the NHL look even worse, if that is possible!

Age and race comes in to play in this arena, due to the fact that age restriction would affect more African American athletes than any other. It appears that more high school NBA draftees are African American. Once again, I'm not saying that the decision of 19 years old being the minumum was racially motivated, only that it affects African Americans more than any other players. Jermain is not reaching, he is just stating the facts and the data of high school draftees. Let's face it, another year's wait could prove detrimental (injury, etc). JMO

The fact that the rule affects African Americans more than any other racial or ethnic group does not entail that there is a racist motivation for putting the rule in place.

The NBA's salary cap also affects African Americans more than any other racial or ethnic group. Is the salary cap racially motivated? Of course not. It affects AA's the most simply b/c AA's are the vast majority of NBA players.

The age limit is exactly the same. It affects AA's more than Arabs simply b/c there are overwhelmingly more 18-year-old AA's than 18-yr-old Arabs who are capable of playing in the NBA.

O'Neill simply used the easy wording instead of the correct wording. And he said as much the very next day. He was not accusing Stern and the owners of thinking that Blacks are inferior as human beings. He was only pointing out that Blacks are most affected by the rule.

Chuck:

We are on the sheet of music. I was only agreeing with the outcome in a strict sense of the demographics of draftees and players in the NBA.

You don't think that the NBA requires "additional physical growth and development, as well as learning the game?" Other than Lebron James, name another player who has come directly out of high school to the NBA and made an impact. Wait, I'll do it for you. No one. Kobe Bryant averaged 7.6 ppg during his first year and Kevin Garnett averaged 10.4. Jermaine O'Neal, who gave up a promising career as a professional fighter to come to the NBA, averaged 4.1, 4.5, 2.9. and 3.5 ppg in his first four years in the league. Yep, that's some impact! HS players are no more ready for the NBA than they are for the NFL.

As for the policy being "racially discriminatory" perhaps you haven't noticed but the head of the players' union is black as well as 80% of the players in the league. Further, for every HS player that comes into the league, a veteran retires. Isn't that age discrimmation, to terminate a person's employment because you're hiring a younger person? There are age requirements throughout life. Do you think NASCAR is going to allow a 17 year old phenom to drive a Cup car? No, pretty sure that they have rules against it.

There's no reason the NBA shouldn't as well.

BTW, none of this means anything for college basketball. These kids will just go to prep school for a year, until they're eligible.

Well, we should mention the obvious too---- this is a labor agreement. If Jermaine O'Neil and the predominantly-black players' union don't like the new rule, they can vote it down. It's just that simple. Iow, don't complain about it---do something about it. Negotiate something you're happy with.

I personally do not have a problem with the age limit. I would like the age limit to be older, like the age of 21.

I think that the issue having to deal with race is a valid one. I do not think race played a role in the reasons the NBA and the Player's Union made this decision, I think it is the reaction to young African-Americans making millions from the media and public has racial overtones.

There is a baseball player in our area that recently got drafted by the Boston Red Sox. This pitcher's team was in the State Finals this season and lost their first game. I did not hear anyone complaining that this kid would skip college (he had a scholarship to Arizona State waiting for him) and go right to the pros. But when it comes to these inner-city kids, many seem to have a big problem if the players want to consider the jump from high school to the pros. When it is the rich and affluent white kids, they can play tennis and baseball and no one blinks and eye to the maturity level and going pro. The young Russian female tennis player that won Wimbledon last year was 17 or 18 when she won the tournament. No one is talking about her maturity and how she can handle her millions.

I do think the new NBA age limit is appropriate because I think the structure of a team sport it is in the best interest of players to get some experience at the college level. One of the differences with the NBA and other sports is there is no farm system to groom these players to the top. If you do not get drafted in the first round, you have no guarantee to make the team. There have been players that have been picked number one in the second round of the NBA draft and did not make the NBA roster the following year. At least baseball players can go into the draft and not throw away there elgiblity. Unfortunately the NBA and NFL do not allow for you to return after you have been in a draft out of high school. Only college players can go into the NBA draft and come back (I am not sure of all the rules the NCAA has to this issue) if their draft status is not perfect.

I also understand completely the feeling of O'Neal and others that comment on these issues when they have experienced it. Not everyone is going to agree or has the same point of view.

Peace

I agree completely, unless the NBA sets up a formal minor league system like MLB, where drafted players go to get their NCAA-level training and development.

I disagree. I don't think the labor union cares too much about what the public thinks about their salaries. I think it had everything to do with a bunch of 32-year-old journeymen who get to hold onto their $2-million-per-year jobs for one more year. JMO.

Let's see here...who will be the most likely person to be drafted instead of the African American 18 year old? A 19-22 year old African American. If there is any argument to be made at all, it would be an age argument.

We need to stop listening to rabble rousers and start using our brains. To say the NBA is in any way racist is ludicrous.

If Jermaine O'Neal had gone to college he would know how stupid his statement was.

This is not to say that there are not racists in the NBA. But the NBA itself is not racist.

I defy anyone to make a case for racism against blacks in an institution where the employees are 80% black, even though the population of the United States is 13% black.

Jermaine O'Neal needs to get a real job and see what it takes for the average working stiff to make payments on a jalopy and still get the rent paid on time.

Baseball has a well developed farm system. In going to the pros, it is not a produce now or get cut situation. They can send them off the a minor league team to gain the needed experience. For the player, it's a win-win situation. They can get the experience and get paid.

Not so with basketball. You get drafted (2nd round) and don't make the roster, you get cut. There are foreign leagues but it's not quite the same as the MLB and minor leagues where the MLB team has an interest in the minor league team developing the player.

It has nothing to with where they grew up. It's usually silly for a kid to declare based on high school performance against high school competition. The number that can cut it is very small. Those that are affected will still get their shot after a year wait.

The point with basketball is that when a high school player goes into the draft, they throw away the opportunity for a free education and a place to gain experience....likely $0 for a majority of them. The pros will still be there after a year or two of college and they will know a lot better if they can cut it with the higher competition.

Affluency also has nothing to do with playing baseball or tennis. They're no more expensive than basketball. There are several free tennis courts around that anyone can play on. However, affluent white kids choose those sports.

Also, the affluent kid is taking a much smaller risk in attempting to go pro since they likely have alternative means of getting into college rather than depending on sport scholarship.

Is that because very few people follow tennis?


[Edited by Camron Rust on Jun 22nd, 2005 at 11:39 PM]

Racism is not about numbers. Racism is about systems and standards. You do not have to agree with O'Neal's statements, because what I am talking about has nothing to do with O'Neal or his comments. There are some that listen to the tone of the media and those that come to their own conclusion. If you watch PTI, Michael Wilbon makes some very conclusive comments without consideration of what O'Neal says.

O'Neal has a real job. He has a talent that makes him millions. If I had that talent I would do the same.

Peace

And this statement is smart?

There are many career fields where a person could just put up the money in one lump sum, get his/her piece of paper and save everyone a lot of time. A college degree does not guarantee maturity, job knowledge or in many cases common sense :D.

You may not have heard it, but I did. And, the arguments were exactly the same: "he can go back later"; "the purpose of college is to get a high paying job -- he will earn more than $1m already", etc.

Ok, since we're defying people. . . :)

How many NBA GMs are black (I can only think of one, Wes Unseld, and he's terrible)? How many executives in the NBA's New York headquarters are black? How many NBA commissioners have been black?

None of this proves that the NBA is racist (and I don't honestly believe that the NBA is a racist organization), but if you want to make a case, that's a good place to start.

Well, Joe Dumars up in Dee-troit seems to be doing not too badly. Class act too.

Probably because nobody is talking about tennis period.
Actually, I did hear alot of talk about that young lady but that's because she's pleasant to look at.

Good point. That's two out of 30, about 6.5%.

Not to mention Michelle Wie, the 15 year old golfer.

IMO there should be no age restrictions in the NBA. If a kid thinks he can play right out of HS let him get an agent & have at it. I believe the real issue is there's a drain of talent away from the NCAA, this age requirement will force most of these kids to serve a year there. Don't forget, the same media outlets that pay the NBA also pay the NCAA, it's in the interest of CBS, ABC, ESPN, etc to keep the level of play up in the NCAA game.

Also, if you get drafted in the first round I believe you get a contract guarantee at some minimum salary. IOW you don't need to be able to compete in the league, you just need to look good enough to go in the first round to make a huge paycheck. If the NBA was serious about keeping HS players out of the league they would eliminate this guarantee.

There is a difference between personal racism and institutional racism. Personal racism is when someone does something to another person directly. Institutional racism is when a system or practice is keeping a group of people back from opportunity. Just look at the NFL and the way they hired head coaches. It usually was a common practice that a Super Bowl winning offensive or defensive coordinator would get offered a head coaching job the next year. When Marvin Lewis was the defensive coordinator of the Baltimore Ravens when they won the Super Bowl, he was not given an opportunity. His defense was the biggest reason that team was successful; no one even offered the man an interview for the many open head coaching positions. Lewis had to take another position with the Washington Redskins before getting picked up by the Cincinnati Bengals. Many might not look at this as a big deal, but when something changes for an African-American when historically are just as successful, to those watching it raises some eye brows. I could even go on and on about Romeo Crennel and how he won multiple Super Bowls as a Defensive coordinator, to be considered completely secondary to Bellicik. It is not about money, it is about opportunity. I said before I have no problem with the NBA and their age limit. I think the age limit is good for the game because the NBA does not really have a "farm system" to help groom those players. Just when I hear the issues about players not going to the NBA, even when the player is a LeBron James type, people seemed to make the point that they need to "mature" or "grow up" by simply going to college.

Bob,

It is not about whether they are saying a kid should stay or not, it is why he should go to college or go pro. I did not hear anyone say this kid was not "mature" to take a million dollar contract (which he only is going to make around $800,000). When even the top notch players want to go pro, there maturity and intelligence is questioned when they will be guaranteed around 3 million. Why is the kid that comes from the nice suburb making the obvious choice and the inner city kid has to grow up first. It is not just about race, there are issues of social status and class playing in this as well.


Peace

I don't think the NBA would be a good place to start, Chuck. In fact, the NBA is known as the "industry leader on issues related to race and gender hiring practices." As for stats:

There are six black General Managers that I can think of-

Elgin Baylor - Clippers
Isiah Thomas - Knicks
Bernie Bickerstaff - Bobcats
Billy King - 76ers
Joe Dumars - Pistons
Billy Knight - Hawks

Wes Unseld isn't the GM for the Wizards. Ernie Grunfield is.

There are 12 head coaches that I can think of-

Maurice Cheeks - 76ers
Doc Rivers - Celtics
Mike Woodsen - Hawks
Bernie Bickerstaff - Bobcats
Avery johnson - Mavericks
Mike Brown - Cavs
Dwane Casey - Wolves
Byron Scott - Hornets
Sam Mitchell - Raptors
Eddie Jordan - Wizards
Nate MacMillan - Sonics
Herb Williams - Knicks

NBA HQ - More diversity than you would think! I found this info online-

13 people of color in vice president positions
13 women in vice president positions
League Office professional staff at 29 percent
The support staff is 53 percent minorities
Limited partners as owners with 6 and 1 primary owner Bobcats
CEOs/ team presidents with 10 percent
Ronnie Nunn is the Supervisor of Officials

Nope, I think we'd better look at the NFL or the MLB.

Like I said, I don't think the NBA is a racist organization. I'm glad to see the numbers support my "gut" feeling. Thanks for the info, Tony.

I know that, and agree completely. That's why I posed my "argument" in terms of GMs and executives. If it were only about money, then heck, the players have all the money they could need. The question is "Does the NBA give African Americans the opportunity at its highest positions?" and according to the numbers Tony provided, it certainly looks like they do.

Organizationally, he was secondary to Belichick, of course. But I understand that's not what you mean. I can only assure you that here in New England, Crennel's value is never understated. When talking about the coaching in New England, the local writers never just talk about Belichick; it's always Belichick, Crennel and Weis.

Farm system
 

One of the other provisions of the new NBA collective bargaining agreement is the expansion of the NBADL from 8 to 16 teams. Each team would be associated with two NBA teams so they would be able to send their players down in order to gain experience in a minor league. Think what this would've done for Darko of the Pistons or Ndudi Ebi of the T-wolves. This would allow them to get meaningful playing time in a game situation rather than being practice squad warriors that are constantly plagued by "knee tendinitis". In addition the league has eliminate the injured list and expanded rosters to 15 players, of which 12 may be eligible for any game. Players can be moved back and forth at will, thus allowing for better game management.

Of course this will create more opportunities for players.

Re: Farm system
 

That sounds good in theory, MN, but do you really think that any team is going to send down a kid that they just gave $20 million to?

My guess is that the D-League will continue to be what it has been, a place for undrafted free agents to play.

It is not just about numbers.
 

I worked as an assistant manager in a particular drug store chain when I moved to my current area. The stores I worked out of had no white people in those stores. The stores were on the south side of Chicago deep in the heart of the inner city. District Managers, Store Managers, Asst. Managers, cashiers, stock people and any other position I cannot think of where African-American. Even the vendors that came into the stores most of the time where people of color. Now that is fine for those areas that have 99.9 percent of their customers were of that race, but what about those that live in more racially diverse areas? Are there the same kinds of opportunity in those stores? Just because there are overwhelming numbers of a certain race, does not mean there is still not forms of institutional racism at works.

I know as an officials I have no problem working in the Chicago Public League and places where there are a lot of African-Americans playing. I also do not just want to be relegated as an official to only working in the predominately African-American areas either. I would also like to work schools where there will be no Black players or coaches on the court. The Class AA State Boy's State Champion was an mostly white team with no African-Americans on any roster spots (a largely Jewish community at that), I would not mind officiating that team, then working teams that are all African-American and cannot win a Regional Title.

I agree that the NBA has a large number of African-Americans in very prominent roles throughout the game. That does not prove there is not discrimination. Discrimination should be judged by whether people in those positions are given the same opportunity. Chuck makes a good point that if only 2 or 3 GMs in the NBA are people of color and the game is overwhelmingly represented, why are there not at least half of the GMs in the NBA a reflection of who is on the team?

None of us here are going to be able to answer this question. For those African-Americans (and women in many cases) observing and looking at the NBA, NFL or MLB, the question is from are we getting the same opportunities as those in similar positions. Joe Dumars was and exceptional player and leader of the Detroit Pistons in his playing days. Elgin Baylor had a Hall of Fame career and was voted one of the Top 50 to ever play in the game several years ago. John Paxon was a marginal player and only had experience as a radio analyst before he got picked to be the Bull's GM. I am not saying Paxon was not qualified for his position, but would someone that has historically been discriminated against get that same opportunity with the little experience he had? B.J. Armstrong who actually worked in the Bull's front office after his playing days did not get the job. So Armstrong, who was also a marginal player on the same teams with Paxon, actually was working in with scouting and front office issues under Jerry Krause. Armstrong did not get the Bull's job or any GM job for that matter. For those that are looking at social justice and fight discrimination, these are specific situations we are looking at. Just to have more people than any other organization than the larger population is not what many are concerned with. I and others are looking at opportunity for those in similar situations or backgrounds.

Peace

Talk about a discriminatory remark. Why should that be? Just because 78% of the players in the NBA are African-American, it doesn't mean that 78% of all the other positions should be filled with African-Americans as well. There's absolutely no reason to compare those two positions. A player and a general manager are two completely different types of positions, that require different skills and talents. The person who's most qualified applicant for the job should be hired. He shouldn't be hired just for the color of his skin, no matter the color of that skin.

As for great players making great GMs, that just isn't so. What a person did as a player has absolutley nothing to do with whether he will be a good GM or not. I don't think anyone can argue with what Paxson, along with Skiles, has done in Chicago. While we're discussing GMs, the greatest player of all-time was a lousy GM.

BTW, there aren't "2 or 3 GMs in the NBA." There are 6 now and there have been others.

Of course you find it discriminatory, you always find any comment that someone makes about giving people of color a chance discriminatory. Of course you think that all people of color cannot do the job, why else would you get upset? I guess we can play the game, we just cannot make and decisions around the game. I especially know you would get upset by my comments about a game where African-Americans overwhelmingly dominate. I guess Black people should just be happy with their place and not expect more in an industry where opportunity is supposed to be ramped. Next thing you are going to tell me a Black teacher should not expect to have success in a school district any more than the general population.

Peace

You've written some stupid posts in your life but that's your all time worst.

I have never made any such statements, either verbally or on this or any other board and I defy your to find such a statement. Once again, you prove that you are indeed the biggest idiot on any Internet discussion board in the world. You're a disgrace to every black person that I've ever met or corresponded with. The best thing that you can do for all of us is to just shut your ****ing mouth.

__________________________________________________ _

My apologies to anyone else who offended by this post but I don't appreciate this type of response, when all I was doing was simply discussing an issue. This man is a fool and heaven help me, I will never reply to one of his posts again.

Sad.....but absolutely typical.

If you disagree with me, you must be a racist.

Same old,same old.....been reading it for years....but it's still sad.

Every thread that starts to discuss race on this forum should be sh*t-canned immediately. They all end up exactly the same way.

Oh Well!!
 

Funny thing about my post, I never used the word racism or racist at all. I guess if your conscious is not right, that is the logical conclusion you will come to.

Peace

Yes, folks, I'm a racist too.

No, I guess my conscious isn't right. I find people like you despicable. Note that the term "like you" refers to your attitude, not your skin color.

Sad!

Maybe you should fade away into Bolivian. :)

I'm puzzled how you find taking opportunities from one race and giving them to another discriminatory but not the reverse. You seem to be saying that an African-American should be hired just because their skin color and not based on the merits. Explain that to me. Just because a black person is not hire for any given jobs doesn't mean it is because of race. It could be any number of reasons...but it is so lazy to jump on the racism bandwagon. Pitiful.

Certainly, black should expect more...fairly...not handed to them...as so often seems the expectation.

It puzzles me how people read things they want to. I did not say "just because." I clearly gave and example of someone getting hired and they did not go through the ranks or work in any capacity at the job they were ultimately hired at. A person of color that had more experience actually working in the front office was passed over by someone that just called games on the radio and TV every now and then. I can look at the NFL and see the many recycled coaches that have not one anything. Then the Black NFL coaches like Dennis Erickson get hired and Denny Green is passed over. Denny Green went to the playoffs every year practically and almost played for the Super Bowl if his Hall of Fame kicker would not have missed his only FG all season. Erickson proved that he was a bad coach in Seattle and really proved it in San Fran. Now I do not know what papers you read or if you pay attention to these things, but there were many media members a little skeptical about Erickson and his hire to the 49ers. This issue was talked about a lot on major media outlets and even the NFL had to put in a policy to change the way the NFL did things as it related to hiring. You cannot tell me that people that can be successful on the field cannot have similar success when given an opportunity. Let us not forget that there was a time when in this country when people of color were not allowed to play many pro sports or there was an open quota to limit the numbers. When given the opportunity, not only did many excel, they ended up being the greatest players of all time. Some of us just want the opportunity to prove we can be just as bad as anyone else. Sorry that I expect more opportunity for more than the superstars in the league. We all know the only reason MJ got the opportunity to have his role with the Wizards was because he was one of the greatest players of all time. If he had the same success of John Paxon, there is no way in hell he would have been put in that position. Even Joe Dumars had to learn his role and the front office business by holding other positions in the Piston's organization. Then after some time in the front office, he was given the reigns to the organization.

I find it interesting I can hear all these Caucasian males complain when officials get the opportunity they do not deserve, whether it is based on qualifications or experience. But when someone of color raises a similar issue of qualification of a white male, then God forbid that issue get raised or concerns are openly made clear. I have sat in meetings and heard officials specifically question the ability of a state final official because he came from the Chicago Public League. No one including myself said a word. Then when the tables are turned, the all hell breaks lose. I guess we should know our place and not rattle the good people who feed us.
:rolleyes:

Are you saying that Black people get things handed to them? I guess that is why the NBA players should get a real job. All those millions were handed to them, they did not earn it. :rolleyes:

Peace