"There's a simple statistic. We're 1-7 with one referee, and we're 11-1 with the rest." — LARRY BROWN

According to the Detroit Free the stats are actually:

In 2005 Playoffs

Ron Garretson 0-4
Dan Crawford 1-3
Games without either of those two: 12-1

I'm throwing this out there for a couple reasons that I'm curious about.

1) As Officials, how can this be explained?

2) I am uneducated when it comes to who determines who refs, and where. Are there occasions where certain officials are held back from ref'ing teams that they've had "issues" with.

3) Are there accessible sites that has more information like this? Or is everything behind closed doors?

Respectfully

Loudbottom.

Let me guess.
 

Hmmm.
I'm guessing that for some reason, when Crawford and Garretson are officiating, the Pistons don't play as well.
Dunno.
mick

Maybe van Gundy was right and there is a conspiracy......


or not

It's all mental. It is like calling a game with a coach you know is going to be a butthead. So, you tell yourself it's going to be a bad night and usually it turns out to be that way. Mental approach.

"It's all mental."

So, you're placing this all on the players and in essence are telling me that officials are beyond reproach. Interesting.

Care to point out whereinthehell anybody said something that even faintly resembles your conclusion?

You aren't an official, are you?

LoudBottom,
Truerookie is just a rookie, take it easy on him.

Actually, players often adjust [or not] to how the game is being called.

My Pistons are not adjusting very well.
I assume your Pistons are not adjusting well, but you are looking to excuse their lethargy.

mick

It's not meant to be offensive JR.

So far, 3 responses.

1) Pistons fault. They must not play well.
2) Pistons fault. Mocking Conspiracy theory.
3) Pistons fault. "It's all mental"

Nobody mentions the other side.

FWIW, I officiated softball for several years on a peon local scale. Nothing grand. Both me and my wife played college ball. I've watched 20+ mysterious years of Hightower, Rucker, and Valentine... and am just curious on the goings on behind the curtain. I really am not trying to be an ***.

LB

Do you honestly think that anyone here would actually mention the "other" side"? There is NO damn other side. Did you really expect the committed, dedicated officials that post here to tell you that NBA officials- who are probably as good a group of professional officials that you will find- would deliberately set out to screw a particular team? News Flash:...officials are human. They will make mistakes. NBA officials however will NEVER make a bad call on purpose due to a bias against a particular team or player. If there was ever even a hint of one doing so, they would be off a series in a flash.

Losing teams have been blaming the officials for years- in all sports. It's easier than admitting that the other team might be a l'il better or that you just didn't play very well. Why should the Pistons be any different? Pistons fans think the officials are horrible and biased when their team loses; SA fans think the officials did a great job in the exact same game. Just reverse those sentiments when the Pistons win and SA loses. That's why we NEVER take fans seriously.They care who wins. We don't.

Maybe Larry ought to wonder about the 12-1 record. ;)

The funny thing about statistics is that they can be manipulated to represent just about any truth.

When I play poker sometimes I lose with a terrific hand. Same goes with basketball: sometimes you simply lose by external factors that you can't influence. These correlations can NEVER be assumed to be a cause-and-effect relationship.

Just because you lose when two particular refs are working doesn't mean that it's the refs' fault. I'd like to see last year's stats (and from the past 2-3 years) and see if Dan Crawford and Ron Garretson happen to factor into each of the Pistons' losses then, too. I'm guessing it won't be a factor at all.

I think Larry Brown was searching for an excuse for his team's terrible play and happened to stumble upon this convenient statistic that he could toss out to the media.

Psychology 101 - Correlation DOES NOT equal causation. Simple. There is no basis to make the jump from who refs to your teams outcome. Maybe there is something else to this but simply saying when Mr. X refs my team don't win in not enough.

Example, Driver A has received 4 speeding tickets this year. Each time he was given a ticket it was raining. Does that mean the rain is reason he is getting speeding tickets? Of course not. Same with this quote you use. It is to simple and broad to have any real teeth to it.

So Loudbottom, let me get this straight you have gone through life and handle all situations as if they are going to turn out like to expect them. I find that fascinating. Your approach to any situation whether you are playing a game or officiating one is a mental approach this is the point I was trying to make when I stated it was all mental when a team takes the court knowing who will be the officials.

I have learned alot from these threads. The one of those things are people will see what they want to see, say what they want to say, and interpret what they want to interpret just look at the surface. Anything, we do is 90% mental and 10% physical. Sorry, it is MENTAL. Good to know everyone is perfect in this forum in everything they do. GOT IT!!

Garrettson worked Game 1 of the Finals. The Pistons were on the road, they played lousy and they lost.

Crawford worked Game 2 of the Finals. The Pistons were on the road, they played lousy and they lost.

Who is "they?" Are officials that a team has an issue with held back? No. As for the officials, if an official had an "issue" with a team, he wouldn't be working in the NBA long.

As I recall Larry Brown was out of the coaching box, screaming at Danny Crawford when he got his T. Rick Hamilton thought he got fouled, replays showed that he didn't, and turned and screamed at Crawford. Got news for you partner, I would have busted both of them in the a$$ too. Am I a diehard Carolina fan but I would have still stuck Brown.

Joey Crawford T'ed up Tim Duncan for the exact same thing last night and the Spurs lost. Does that mean that Joey Crawford has it in for the Spurs? How about Joey and Danny wasn't going to listen to the bull$hit and simply did what the rules required, those teams played lousy and lost?

I'm sure there is. There's a site that has the University of Kentucky's basketball record for ever offiical who's worked a UK game in the past 40-50 years. So yes, conspiracy thoerists are united, so I'm sure you can find something if that's what you want.

Closed doors? When you were umpiring, were there closed door meetings where you guys discussed who you didn't like and who you decided would lose? I bet not. Well, doesn't happen in HS, the NCAA, or the NBA either.

There is no conspiracy. There are no issues. But believe what you want.

Stupid, stupid statistic. If you researched every NBA, college or high school ref, you'd find good teams that have losing records when certain officials have done their games. Part of life is random. Now go away fanboy.

Z

Wow...

You seem surprised. Exactly what reaction did you expect from an official's forum?

The NBA refs officiate a game and then break down the entire game in the locker room. They have to pay for making rule mistakes and each call is graded. The two officials mentioned make a lot of money. Probably over $200k. I have also heard that they make $75k if they make it to the finals. That sure is a lot of money to risk when you know you are going to be caught on film and everything you do will receive a grade. Not to mention how long it took both of them to make it where they are now. Not to mention this is their full-time gig.
It makes perfect sense to risk all of that so you can stick it to Larry Brown and the Pistons. NOT!

I've been in a situation when it seems like a team never wins when I have their game. Part of it had to do with the coach being an idiot and me being dumb enough to make the appropriate call because of this. Well, I stuck to my guns and did the right thing every time I had his team no matter what. This isn't any different from what I do for any game since it would be much more difficult to lean one way or the other. My last year at State in Nevada before I moved he wanted me on the finals game. He knew he was getting the same official at home, on the road or in the state finals.

Yes I really believe there is a consirpacy among NBA refs. Boy these guys sure are the best, they can keep screwing certain teams for 20+ years in a row.

If you want to bash the refs, go to a fan's forum. If you haven't noticed by reading the rest of the threads on this site, the general population here (which is over 95%) are refs. The rest are coaches who want a better understanding of the rules.

But a fan with a grudge appears every now and then, it sure is fun to tell that fan how it is.

They have so many cameras and plenty of people grading their calls who know what they're doing to go out and make a bad call on purpose. It would show up big time on the film and I just don't see anyone getting away with it. They call 'em like the see 'em.

There's sooooo many stats kept that you could manipulate them to say just about anything. These coaches know what play teams run out of the first time out of every Thursday night game, so you know they have stats on everything.

Larry Brown has his stats, but the NBA league office has thousands more.

Every call by every official against every player and team is recorded and catalogued. If any hint of a bias were to appear, you better believe the league would take care of it in an instant.

The most basic flaw in Larry Brown's reasoning, and by extension, the reasoning of the right honorable LoudBottom, is that it takes into account only one statistical category and tries to pin a win or a loss on it. There are tons of other statistics, most of which are much more influential, that could be used. How about, just for arguments sake, the shooting percentage of the Pistons in those games? Shooting percentage has nothing to do with the officials, and I would venture a guess that it is probably lower in the games that they lost.

Heck, if your going to just pull out one statistic, you could look at what their record is when Larry Brown wears a red tie as opposed to a blue one. I mean, it is absurd to take any one statistical category, no matter what it is, and try to draw a direct relationship between it and wins and losses. Well, that isn't totally true, becuase the number of points scored in relation to your opponent does have a direct relationship to wins and losses.

Almost forgot:

Post hoc, ergo propter hoc.

I don't know, Mark, it may be more of a non-sequitur.

If this board starts going Latin on me, I'm through.

Well, where to start...

I'll first say the arrogance is amazing. Not just in this thread, but in many others as well. There are some amazing sources of knowledge here and lots of cool information... but man, there are some truly self-righteous individuals here. I understand the knowledge and confidence you must emit to be a respected and effective referee. I do not diminish and understand that many must put on the uniform and the game face that comes with it. Many of us need to do the same things in our real lives. I made a gamble coming here hoping that the Power Aura was something that officials can turn off and on once you leave the court or film room. Fishing through these threads for knowledge has left me blown away. The way some people get off in here discussing T's and their point of views on rule judgements is downright mindblowing. I wish I had seen many of these people before they starting officiating. I'm dying to know if this is something that they turned into... or is this something that they gravitated naturally towards because of the power. Some of these people just seem downright mean. I digress...

Let me address some stuff thrown at me.

Jurassic Referee: "News Flash:...officials are human...They will make mistakes" then you say "NBA officials however will NEVER make a bad call on purpose due to a bias against a particular team or player."

Okay, which is it? Humans are not perfect, yes? I totally agree... they make mistakes, totally honest mistakes. But to say that these people are above emotion, stress, and personal feelings? Every single one???? They never ever breakdown and slip up? After going through these boards and seeing the individuals who are totally emotional with respects to T's and coach-player-fan interactions... that's a real tough reality to try and swallow.

"Pistons fans think the officials are horrible and biased when their team loses"

Please try and generalize a little more. There are many of us who have lived the better parts of our lives on as court as well... If your saying that everyone who isn't a ref really has no clue what's going on... that's not true at all. There are many of us who love the game so much and to insinuate that all of us out here have no insight or objectivity is really disrepectful. For every Bill Walton, Doug Collins, or Steven A Smith out there spewing crap there are a thousand of us who know better.

Dewey1: "Psychology 101 - Correlation DOES NOT equal causation."

Understood and agreed. Also though "If it looks like a rat, and it sounds like a rat, it's either Krzyzewski or a rat"

Truerookie: :"let me get this straight you have gone through life and handle all situations as if they are going to turn out like to expect them"

Nope not at all... I'm human, I make mistakes every day. I have emotions and have instincts that I act upon. I never said NBA officials were perfect. I just meant that of all the responses nothing ever mentioned that a ref could ever be at fault. Seeing that humans and billions of dollars are involved... seems only logical to be curious.

DBLREF: "You seem surprised. Exactly what reaction did you expect from an official's forum?"

Well, like I said earlier. I was hoping that officials were people too. People that once they take off the uniform were nice engaging sorts that might actually be able to discuss public fallacies with a non-ref. I should have read through a load of threads first... I'm sure I would have picked up on the vibe earlier and not wasted everyone's time.

Zebraref: "Now go away fanboy."

Done and Done

Of course it is hard for you to swallow. You are not an official. You have no idea what it takes to be an official. You have no idea what our job is. Our job is not to root for a team. Our job is to do a job and do that to the best of our ability. If the guys at the NBA do not their job, they do not have a job. No different from coaches and players at that level. They also make much less money. They do not have a guaranteed 20 million dollar contract. In some cases they do not make more than 5 figures. If you think they want to lose their job because of what a fan, coach or player thinks (when every game is taped and evaluated) you really think. If players and coaches do not want to get T'd up, then they need to shut up. If you speed on a road, the police have the right to give you a ticket for your driving. If you do not want to get ticketed for speeding, you do not speed.

Please, what part of the game do you understand? You probably think "over the back" is a foul. You probably think "moving screen" is illegal. You probably have most of your rules knowledge based on what Walton, Collins and even Steven A. Smith says. I hate to break it to you, but so did I before I became an official. Then when I actually read the rulebook and the casebook and the many interpretations, I found out I did not know what I thought I did.

You are not as bright as I thought you were. For one thing, any person that is into something "does not just take off their uniform." I can tell you a teacher does not stop think of education because they are not in the classroom. Or a doctor throws away all his training and expertise because they are out of the hospital. People who officiate are not any different. See I do not watch the NBA or any sport with the same eyes anymore. I watch the game as an official. I look at the game as an official. I watch their mechanics, signals and calls for understanding what took place. But you are not an official, so you have no idea.

Actually I think that is the best advice you have received. You should learn how to listen.

Peace

Ok, I have to throw this in here for fun. What about Olympic refs in 1972, conspiracy?????

Yup, and they musta had the same conspiracy in 2004.

News Headline: In 100% of Olympic basketball series studied, officials were biased against Americans.

Similarly.......

News Headline: In 100% of NBA playoff series studied, officials were biased against the visiting team.

Or you can also insert "biased against small-market teams".

[Edited by Jurassic Referee on Jun 17th, 2005 at 10:03 AM]

LB,

I hope you understand that you struck a nerve here, and it was responded to with very raw attitude.

A lot of us here also played the game, coached the game, or both (in my case). Once I became an official, I realized that I knew so little about this game. For you to come here and say that we act as if referees are beyond reproach is totally crazy. You might as well become a fireman and run through a building in gasoline underwear!

We are the only ones on the court are openly criticized, ridiculed, and lambasted at every whistle. If your team is winning, do you give the referees credit for helping out? NO!!! If the other team totally outplays your team, do you give them credit? NO!!! It was all the refs fault. We put our selves in the position to be blasted as soon as we walk on the court, because 'fans' think they know everything about the game; 'coaches' feel that if they taught their player how to do something, it must be right; and 'announcers' feel that because they watch a lot of basketball, they know all aspects of the game.

Not at all the case. What would happen if a referee ran over to a coach during a timeout and blasted him for a dumb coaching move?? Or if a ref jumped all over a player for missing a wide open layup, or blowing a defensive assignment?? The world would cease to spin, because that isn't what we do. Yet we are arrogant for defending ourselves in our domain?

Get real, learn the rules of the game, then get back to me LB.

Read the quote again. It says, "NBA officials however will NEVER make a bad call <i> on purpose due to a bias against a particular team or player </i>." Italics mine. The part that says they never make a bad call is only the beginning of the sentence. What it DOES NOT say is that they never make a mistake, period. Of course they make mistakes. Of course they are human. But, they DON"T choose which team is going to win and which will lose.

You asked us what we thought, we told you. Saying that "fans thing officials are terrible" isn't stereotyping or generalizing. It's making a statement about the fan culture. The word fan is a nickname shortened from the word fanatic. Fanatics aren't known for their objectivity. Anyone who is objective probably isn't a fan.


Actually, the quote is, "If it walks like a duck, quacks like a duck, flies like a duck, MAYBE it's a duck." This is different from what you said. Just because it walks like a duck, quacks like a duck, and flies like a duck, doesn't automatically make it a duck. It might still also be a goose, a cormorant, or a number of other water birds. It's just that the walking, flying, and quacking narrow down the categories, and show a direction for further investigation. If you investigate further into Danny Crawford and the Pistons, you get a cormorant, not a duck. That's all we're saying.

In another post, you used the word arrogance. Arrogance is the attitude of taking unmerited authority or power onto oneself. This is NOT what's happening here. Our "insider's knowledge" gives us the conficence and authority to state positively that there is no bias in NBA reffing, except for the "bias" against breaking the rules. There is no way to have a playoff bracket without everyone losing except the ultimate champion. That's a form of "bias", too, I guess. There is a "bias" against the visiting team. That doesn't mean the refs have joined together to choose who wins and who loses. When you assert that we are being arrogant, you're wrong. We aren't being arrogant, we are stating something positively that we know for certain.

When Larry Brown quotes a certain statistic that is meaningless, it means he's fuzzy headed, not that there's anything behind the statistic. Just because he's a coach, doesn't make him an "insider" in the ref world. Last night during the game, the announcers said that Larry Brown is the most superstitious guy they know. So when he sees Crawford walk onto the court, do you think that he thinks to himself, "Oh, well, new game, new day." Superstition is a self-fulfilling prophecy. He sees Crawford, and thinks, "Oh, no, we're doomed." and sure enough, they do.

When a team plays 80-100 games over 6 months, and loses 4 of them when one particular ref happens to be working, is that a significant statistic? Hardly. It means that there is such a thing as randomness, and this year Crawford was randomly assigned to the games the Pistons lost.

Look, you guys can joke about this all you want but it remains a fact that recent studies have found that in virtually every single basketball game ever played using officials one of the two teams lost.

If this aint proof of a vast conspiracy I don't know what is.

Sparky,
Your point is well taken.

With officials, one team will lose.
Without officials, both teams lose.

mick

In 1972, Prague Spring was on the referee's mind. In 2004, the team flat out stunk.

True, but truth be told, so did much of the officiating.

Did the officiating cost them the games they lost?

obviously :rolleyes:

I don't think I said that. Did I? :confused:

W-h-a-t p-o-i-n-t a-r-e y-o-u t-r-y-i-n-g t-o m-a-k-e? :confused:

True, but truth be told, so did much of the officiating. [/QUOTE]W-h-a-t p-o-i-n-t a-r-e y-o-u t-r-y-i-n-g t-o m-a-k-e? :confused: [/QUOTE]
Only what I said. The officiating was less than stellar at the Olympics last year. Was that confusing to anyone? Sorry. :shrug:

JR sure is having trouble understanding things lately!
 

I think he was trying to say that the officiating was subpar. But that's just my take. :)

In Hockey "good defence" invariably means a lot of uncalled hooking and interference.
The Pistons, in order to play "good defence", require more leeway from the officials to succeed. Their defence involves much physical play. Certain officials may allow more than others.
This quote looks like good old-fashioned politicking from Coach Brown. Negotiating with refs through the press is not exactly a new concept.

If you call it a foul when Ben Wallace bumps into Tim Duncan to steal the ball, then the Pisrons will get in foul trouble. If you don't, the Spurs will have a lot of turnovers.

Does this mean you are prejudiced against a team or against their style of play? The end result is the same for the team, but the fans and players will say the refs are prejudiced against their team.

The bottom line is the Spurs didn't show up to play.

The Pistons played aggressive, hard, good defense. Was there contact let go? Yup. On both ends of the floor. The fouls were almost dead even - so it's not like the officials were nailing one team and not the other.

SA, most notably Tim Duncan and Ginobili (who's obviously playing hurt) played with zero emotion, passion, and joy. Rather than get mad when Detroit started whupping their a**es, they just let it happen. Popovich himself said it was the worst playoff performance in NBA history.

NBA refereeing is supposed to be the pinnacle of "advantage/disadvantage" officiating - and I think Game Four was a good demonstration of that.

I understand the is difficult to support any conspiracy theory, but for me is clear that Miami series against Detroit and the 2 first games in San Antonio, were officiated in a way that could help people start talking about it.

I always say that when referees are doing their job, they past unnoticed, and of course this has not been the case. The sports is about players not referees, so if they make the right calls and understand that the stars are the players, we shouldn’t be talking about them.

Terrible understanding of a charge foul and a blocking foul has been the common mistake that I has seen.

and YES It’s mental, and frustration because of bad calls is common in good and bad players. Good players will overcome from that but it could cost you a couple of games and in a series of 7, referees should be doing a better job. Everybody makes mistakes but, are you agree about referees making frequently mistakes and everybody have to remain quiet (this doesn’t happens in our regular jobs?)

Regards,

antiref

Buddy,
You come in here with a name that suggests you are against referees and then start spouting off some mumbo jumbo crap that a third grader could have written better...what kind of responses do you expect to hear my friend?

Edit: BTW...mick...feel free to delete my post right along with this dyspeptic antiref.

[Edited by RookieDude on Jun 19th, 2005 at 03:32 AM]

And you are...

....who?

Wasn't me. I don't consider myself anti-ref. Unless it's a Ed Hightower discussion.

While I'm still here...

Can I ask (of officials) who watched the first four games of this past series.

In your opinions, were the first 2 games in San Antonio officiated different than the 2 in Detroit? If so, why?

LB

Well, a Detroit fanboy shows up. Usually they don't slither into our sight when their team has just won a few games.I kinda expected at this time of this series that it would been a SA fanboy instead showing up with the usual mindless crap.

Care to tell us about your vast knowledge of the block/charge rule that allows you to make such a judgement? How many games have you actually officiated and at what levels?

Yes, the officials are out to get <b>YOUR</b> team!

No, it doesn't really matter which team is your's. The referees are still out to get them.

That pretty much cover it for you, fanboy?

Soon to be gone forever. Lah me.

Regards, Anti-antiref.

NO!

Now go away.

Hey....aren't you forgetting something?

You could at least live up to your promise.... :)

That goes without saying - everything that fanboys say on this board is non sequitur.

And with Bud Selig as commissioner, neither team wins . . .

I can't believe that the moderators of this site will allow a user to post under the name "antiref."

This guy needs to go and in a damn hurry. If he truly wants to discuss officiating, then he should select a more appropriate name and lose the dumbass "ref conspiracy theory."

[Edited by BktBallRef on Jun 22nd, 2005 at 10:00 AM]

I am not a ref, so disagree if you must, but seeing those types of views can enlighten a referee I would think. Especially someone new to being a ref. It shows that there are people out there so ignorant (Defence for instance) that they come up with these wild ideas about the way a game is being called. Now with that knowledge, you go out there and call the best game you can knowing only half the gym is going to be happy with you.

Also, it makes for some fun reading.

You also realize even NBA refs, supposedly the top of the ref game, get flack, so just call the game as best you can and move on, don't dwell.

Ouch!
Been hit by a stone thrown from the Research Triangle.
That's gonna leave a mark.
mick

She's Auntie Ref.

Her live in boyfriend Uncle Cletus posts here sometimes.

Not hurling at you, mick.
Prolly should have typed administrators, instead of moderators, since Brad takes care of those types of issues.
Either way, that sumbich needs to go.

Can't we finish pulling his wings off first?

Just another fanboy, single-digit poster. Wander in the door, poke the animals through the bars, and then wander out again. Never to be heard from again usually.

I guess I'm just gettin' old.
I tire so easily of the fanboys these days.

"...always thought he was so cold -- but really he's quite emotional...." - Lee Marvin

Disappointing replies
 

I've been a very frequent visitor and a not so frequent poster here for the past three years. In that time I've gleaned many tips and tricks that I've added to my officiating toolkit and I know that I'm a better official for having been here and having had the opportunity to share in the experiences that you've all had. For that I am very grateful.

However this isn't one of those moments where I feel proud to be part of this group. In re-reading this thread a few times, I feel that LoudBottom came in here asking a very legitimate question in a very respectful way. Instead of responding in kind, many of our members have resorted to insults and been generally mean. I realize that you feel that you should be protected here because this is "The Official Forum". However your negative responses did nothing to improve the image of officials with the general public. Instead we come off as being thin-skinned and beyond reproach. Thats an image I'd rather not have associated with me or my profession.

In response to LoudBottom, I understand what you are asking and I can understand why you may feel that way. I uphold the belief that most (99.999%) of officials are completely impartial and would never want to be part of any "fix" in a game. I think in the case of the officials that you mentioned, they probably call a game that is counter-productive to the type of game that Detroit tries to play. Officials sometimes do have their eyes open for certain things and will be more apt to call it than another official. The other officials on here are welcome to disagree with me, but I've worked with way too many officials to dispute this with me. Because of this, their officiating may hinder the play of certain teams even though the officials are 100% ethical in their duties and administration. Perhaps this is the case with Larry Brown's team.

As for an official deliberately calling things against Detroit in order to influence the game's outcome, it is possible, but like so many of you have stated previously, it is highly unlikely this is the case because it would be career suicide. With all the work and luck that it takes to make it to the NBA, I would never risk throwing this away by being partisan...EVER. Have I been tempted to whack a coach sooner than usual because he rubs me wrong, or a player because of their attitude...sure. Have I done it? I don't think so.

Hopefully in the future when we get a "fan" in our midst that questions the possibility of impropriety we are able to take a little bit of a step back and answer them with the same dignity we show on the court. If they do become unruly and rude, lets let the moderator and or administrator take care of them instead of dishing out our own form of vigilante justice.

Just my two cents worth...for what its worth. Thanks for listening/reading.

Thanks MN...

That's kinda the vibe and discourse that I was hoping for.

LB

Please be aware that I disagree completely with MN. He speaks for himself only. Others may agree or disagree. Iow, I don't tell MN how to post, and I sureashell don't think that MN has any right to tell me how to post. The bottom line is the only ones here who can tell anyone how or how not to respond to goobers like you are the site administrators and the moderators.

If <b>you</b> wanna come here and question the integrity of officials, any officials, then <b>you</b> WILL receive exactly what you deserve. This site isn't for whining fanboys fantasizing about conspiracy theories. We will acknowledge that all officials are human and will miss a call. We will NEVER acknowledge that officials will deliberately screw any particular team.


Iow, don't play with the bulls and then complain if you get the horn.

Regardless of the nature of the discourse, although civility is preferred, I still have major problems with the premises of the argument that Brown makes:

1) There are three officials on every game. Crawford isn't doing the game by himself, he part of a CREW. It would be impossible for him and him alone to determine the outcome of a game. If you want to prove that the officials are directly affecting the outcome of the game, you would need statistics on all of the permutations of crew possibilities.

2) No game comes down to one call or one play. There are numerous opportunities for players, coaches, and refs to both succeed and screw up. None of the games that Brown is talking about came down to some sort of last-second call that got kicked; at least not that I am aware of.

3) What little I know about the evaluating process of NBA officials indicates that any official that was doing things that caused a game to be so poorly officiated as to predispose one team to lose, would probably have a very difficult time getting another assignment.

It would be a lot easier to address Brown's quote if it had even some semblance of logic to it. As it was, it not only looked absurd, it sounded that way when he said it. He really just sounded like a whining coach trying to place the blame for embarassing losses somewhere else. Not very becoming.

Your right to freedom of expression is protected
 

JR,

I don't want to get into a discourse on your right to freedom of expression, etc. You have EVERY right in the world to say what you want to whom you want when you want as long as you aren't making terroristic threats or creating a dangerous situation (ie. yelling "fire" in a crowded theatre). However I was attempting to illustrate the point that we are responsible for the image that get attached to our profession because of those types of comments. There seems to be a pack mentality that occurs whenever a fan dares to invade our space and question our body of work. If we have nothing to hide, why do we get all defensive and start slinging arrows back in their direction? In my opinion it seems more productive to enter into an intelligent discourse with that individual and explain how these things could occur. At that point if they become rude, you have the choice to flame away or merely ignore them (just like I teach my 8 year old).

In any case, please don't misinterpret my comments to be that of censure. Our freedom of expression is our GREATEST single liberty in this country and I would never atempt to stifle that.

I agree completely! Well stated.

If it was just horns, that's no biggie. It's the other end that I was really hoping not to find. I was also hoping to find something other than angry bulls that might explain some of the lesser known aspects that players might not know about.

I'm pretty much excited about this next game.
I have hope.
Go Pistons!

MN, please tell me how you can say in one sentence that I have every right to state my <b>own</b> opinion exactly as I want to, and then in another sentence you then <b>tell</b> me how <b>you </b> think <b>I</b> should post instead?

If I tell you how and what to post, are you gonna say "yassuh, boss" and follow my instructions? Lord, I hope not.

Think about it.

Personally, I have a very low tolerance level when it comes to fanboys who have never officiated a game of basketball in their lives at any level questioning the integrity of dedicated officials-- in any sport. They have every right to do so though. Along with that right, however, comes the equal and similar right for others to respond to them. We, as officials, have to endure verbal abuse from the stands. It's expected- especially at the NBA level. When the "stands" enter our forum, they should expect equal treatment- not special treatment.

I know where you're coming from and I respect your opinion, whether I agree with it or not.

[Edited by Jurassic Referee on Jun 23rd, 2005 at 04:48 PM]

Bullsh*t!

If you have a question about rules, mechanics, a specific call, etc., or any other aspect related to actual officiating, then you'll never have a problem getting an answer or a civil response here.

If you want to question any official's integrity at any level in any sport, then don't expect to be treated nicely here. We have to put up with ignorant fan at games. We don't have to put up with the same crap here. Find one of the regular fanboy forums that cater to people of your ilk. You can crap on the officials there to your heart's content.

Come on, JR. Now yer just being grouchy for the sake of being grouchy. You have every right in the world to wear black jeans with a belt when you officiate. But in my opinion, you should wear pleated Sansabelts.

Giving one's opinion about your actions in no way infringes on your right to perform that action as you please.

Personally, I just had a problem with some goofball named antiref.
I agree with BBR...that dude has to go. Also, IMO, this site shouldn't be overrun with crybaby fanboys. If the administrators allow it...then we will take care of it "in house".

Speaking of "in house"...LoudBottom now comes back with something to the effect of a bulls @ss. He comes back in our house spouting off crap like that.

Yes, this is "our house"...consider it something of a fraternity...this is a fraternity of officials here, we don't always agree with each other...but, any official worth his/her weight in Fox40s will stand up for a fellow official. (Or an official's forum)
That's my take on this type of behavior from posters coming in here talking trash. Check out the big bulls' responses protecting "our house"...these guys are the ones you would go to war with, IMO.