I saw part of the Suns/Spurs last game and a play got me thinking.
After a SA basket, the ball dropped to the floor and bounced up a few feet inbounds. Steve Nash kicked the ball to his teammate who was OOB under the basket and he executed the throw-in.
I also saw a play in an AAU game this past weekend in which, again after a goal, the player who grabbed the ball out of the net tossed it to his OOB teammate who proceeded to punch it back to him. The OOB player never caught the ball. This served as the throw-in and the game continued.

Now forget the NBA, and put both of these plays in an NFHS game. I was thinking that both of these actions are violations. Even though the kick occurs prior to the throw-in, the ball is certainly at the disposal of the throwing team and thus live. The fist is even worse as it occurred during the throw-in itself (or more precisely WAS the throw-in.)

Would you make this call or look the other way? What are your thoughts?



SECTION 4 TRAVEL, KICK, FIST
A player shall not travel with the ball, as in 4-43, intentionally kick it, as in 4-29, strike it with the fist or cause it to enter and pass through the basket from below.
NOTE: Kicking the ball is a violation only when it is an intentional act; accidentally striking the ball with the foot or leg is not a violation.
PENALTY: The ball is dead when the violation occurs and is awarded to the opponents for a throw-in from the designated out-of-bounds spot nearest the violation.

I might call the kick, I"m not sure. I'd never call the fist. never.

Same here. Kick, but no punch. Or maybe for the puch, a warning will do.

I'd slide down a razor blade bannister before I'd call either.

Gotta be better nits to pick than those.

I'd just warn them since there is no advantage.

I wouldn't call either, maybe just a warning. Both cases are just the player being lazy. Might come back to bite them though, if he/she isn't expecting a press sometime and punches the ball inbounds.

I got nothing on either. To me to call the kick is a big stretch on the meaning of that rule. I got no problems with the punch.

No call.
No warning.
No way.
No how.

Anyone who would call either has no business officiating. JMHO

I've got nothing too. If you start playing the little battles, it's going to turn into one big sh*t storm.

<i>Side note: refnrev, good to see you back on the forum, haven't heard from you in a while.</i>

No calls or warnings on either play.

I wouldn't warn him that I would call it. But I might warn his coach that it is technically illegal and some over-zealous newbie official might think it needed to be called.

Doesn't it seem like to call either of these is being a little too involved in the game? I know we have all worked with guys (or ladies) who just seemed to be looking for things or just needed to be noticed a little too much. AT least I have.

On the "kick", there is nothing to call. I can't think of any violation that can be committed during a dead ball.

On the "fist", it could technically be a violation but I'm not going to call it. That's not the purpose of the rule.

Don't go looking for trouble. Let' em both go and play on.

I've always been curious about this. What IS the purpose of this rule?

Safety.

Don't want players flailing away at the ball, missing, and possibly hitting another player.

Camron,

I don't have anything here..I agree that only an OOO would make this call. However, why do you aver that this is a "dead ball" situation? The original post was after a made basket.

Because the ball is dead between the time it drops through the net until the time the throwin begins. If one player is kicking the ball to the thrower, I doubt the throwin has begun.

I have no problem with any official who makes a concious decision not to make either of these calls. I asked the original question to get feedback on how most people feel about these little violations. Each individual has to make their own choices on how to manage a game.

However, I do have an issue if an official doesn't make a call for the wrong reason. In this case, I have to disagree with Camron and insist that by rule the ball is live when the player kicks it to his teammate.

RULE 4 -- SECTION 41 THROW-IN, THROWER, DESIGNATED SPOT
ART. 1 . . . The thrower is the player who attempts to make a throw-in.
ART. 2 . . . A throw-in is a method of putting the ball in play from out of bounds.
ART. 3 . . . The throw-in and the throw-in count begin when the ball is at the disposal of a player of the team entitled to it.

RULE 4 -- SECTION 4 BALL LOCATION, AT DISPOSAL
ART. 7 . . . A ball is at the disposal of a player when it is:

a. Handed to a thrower or free thrower.
b. Caught by a player after it is bounced to him/her.
c. Placed on the floor at the spot.
d. Available to a player after a goal.

Since A1 is kicking the ball to his teammate A2 the ball is obviously available to A1. Thus the ball is at the disposal of a A1.
Further, from 4-41-3 we know that the ball doesn't have to be at the disposal of the thrower, but merely ANY player of the throwing team for the throw-in and throw-in count to begin.
Therefore, the time during which the ball was dead after the goal has passed and the ball is live at the time of the kick.

As an official the only decision is whether or not you are going to call it.

No call on either, NevadaRef. Although you bring up solid rules citations, sometimes common sense should prevail over the "letter of the law".

The player kicking the ball to his teammate is actually doing the officials a favor by keeping the game flowing.

The other player is putting his team at risk, because it is quite difficult to guide the path of a 'fisted' pass. If the other team gets the ball and scores a layup because of his indiscretion, are you going to penalize them by making a call and stopping their play?

That's absolutely absurd.

If you're going to do that, you'll be calling a throwin violation every time a player picks up the ball inbounds and tosses the ball to a teammate who is or is heading OOB for the throwin since the first player has stepped inbounds on the throwin.

What if, after the bucket, A1 catches and tosses it to B1 to relay it to A2 who is OOB for the throwin? By your argument, the ball is live when B1 is holding the ball inbounds. B1 should shoot...live ball inbounds!

What if A1 is throwing it to A2 who is OOB for the throwin? If the ball is live, B2 could intercept this pass before it got the A2 (on the inbounds side of the throwin plane) and shoot the ball?

For that matter, A1, being inbounds, could just take off with the ball if he's holding a live ball inbounds...no need for a throwin.

The question not answered is could A1, if A1 picked up the ball at that moment and spot, make a legal throw in? If the answer is no, then the throwin has not begin. The ball is still dead.

I've presented situation after situation that clearly shows that the ball can not become live simply by a player picking up the ball.

Disposal and available mean that the ball is in a position or should be in a position where it could be legally thrown in.

Sorry Camron but I have to disagree with you. The rule is very clear. The ball is live when it's available to any player on the throwing team. That's black and white, straight out of the rule book. The rule doesn't say that it becomes live when the thrower is holding the ball. In fact, the case play is contrary to your statements.

4.41.3 SITUATION: Following a goal by A1 the ball is: (a) deflected under the bleachers; (b) lying on the court just outside the end line; or (c) deflected inbounds but the official has retrieved it and placed it on the floor outside the end line. When does the throw-in begin? RULING: In (a), the throw-in will not begin until the ball is at the disposal of Team B. In (b) and (c), the ball becomes live and the throw-in and throw-in count begin when the ball is available or has been placed on the floor at the disposal of Team B. (4-4-7)

I'm not going to call a kicking violation in this situation but you're dead wrong if you contend that the ball is dead until the thrower is holding it.

[Edited by BktBallRef on Jun 7th, 2005 at 01:28 PM]

What if team A tried to call a TO in (b) or (c)after the ball became live but no B player had ever touched it? Would you grant it? :D

Sure I'd grant it. Not saying that I call it by the letter of the law. As I said, I certainly wouldn't call a kicking violation just because the ball is live. But the ball is live.

I think we're discussing the actual rule here, not practical application. Camron's interp is that the ball is not live until the thrower has it. That's completely contrary to the rule.

Gasp. You'd grant a TO request to one team when the ball is at the disposal of the <b>other</b> team? :eek: (:D)

Btw, I certainly agree with your position on Cameron's interp. Pretty definitive language he's ignoring.

I agree completely with the rule as you state it and the case play.

It's the definition of disposal and available that is under debate. In every part the case you cite, the ball becomes live when it is in a position where a legal throwin could be made.

It's not avaiable or at their disposal until they can get it into a postion to make use of the ball.

Again, if it's live once they pick it up. Then the other team is free to intercept a toss to the actual thrower or steal the ball. The player that picks up the ball has also committed a throwin violation by stepping inbounds with a live ball.

I'm not ignoring any language at all. We have no explicit definition in NFHS rules on what available and disposal mean. I'm using basic English definitions. If they can't make a legal throwin from the spot where they pick up the ball, the ball is not available for a throwin. They player has to take it to a spot to make it available for the throwin.

No, your point of view is completely contrary to several rules. Yours is based solely on what you claim is the definition of available and disposal while it's fully inconsistent with numerous rules as I've pointed it.

Mine is based on every case play and rule presented. EVERY case covering disposal covers when an official declares it so after the players delay starting the throwin or when the ball is in a position where a legal throwin could be made. Not one of them says anything close to the ball being live when B2 picks up the ball at the FT line and is jogging to the endline.

The definitions of available and dispoal include usable. Can the ball be used for a throwin when it is picked up at the FT line? Not legally.

In fact, the NCAA rule can be used for clarification. The definitions of the throwin are identical and they add the clarifying note that the ball is not live until the player has it OOB.

[Edited by Camron Rust on Jun 7th, 2005 at 02:49 PM]

Do you disagree with the case book which says that when the ball is placed on the floor at the team's disposal, the ball is live? If I grab the ball and place it on the floor or it's sitting on the floor after a goal, it's at the disposal and therefore live, whether anyone is in "a postion to make use of the ball" or not.

I believe that NVRef's contention is that if A1 is close enough to kick the ball, then the ball is "available or at their disposal." I would agree with that.

Quote:

Again, if it's live once they pick it up. Then the other team is free to intercept a toss to the actual thrower or steal the ball. The player that picks up the ball has also committed a throwin violation by stepping inbounds with a live ball.

C'mon Camron, you can do better than that. You know that any actions along that lines would be delay of game (10-1-5b, "Delay the game by preventing the ball from being made promptly live or from being put in play"). Why does you keep posting that? That would be an obvious delay of game. :(

Sorry but that ain't what the rule book says. I agree that this is the way we all enforce it, unless a team is trying to delay and burn some clock. But that's not what the rule states.

I'm not ignoring any language at all. We have no explicit definition in NFHS rules on what available and disposal mean.
[/B][/QUOTE]Then what makes you so right and Blind Zebra so wrong then, if the NFHS rules definitions aren't explicit?

Don't you think that a better statement by both of you might be "in <b>my</b> opinion....."?

No, "the other team is" NOT "free to intercept a toss to the actual thrower or steal the ball." That's interfering with the throw-in and it's a warning or technical foul, depending on the sitch. Just because the ball is live, and available, doesn't mean that the other team can touch it. Otherwise, a free throw would be meaningless.

No, I do not disagree. If you have time to get the ball and place it on the floor, the team certainly has had sufficient time to be ready for the throwin. That count doesn't begin until you actually put it on the floor, not when you decide you're going to put it on the floor. Again, the ball sitting there on the floor OOB at a valid throwin location implies that the team could easily pick it up and make the throwin but is not doing so. After seeing that the team is not doing so, the official declares the ball at the disposal/available (live) and starts counting. The situation I keep referring to is when the ball is NOT at a location where it could be thrown in....inbounds...by 5, 10, or 50 feet.

What if A1, when he picks up the ball, is under the basket, at the FT line, top of the key, divsion line, opposite FT line? What rule makes one location different than the other? Why would it be availble under the basket but not at the division line? At precisely what spot on the floor does the definition change from available to unavailable?

By your interpretation, the ball is already live and in play so they couldn't possibly keep it from being made so. If the ball is live for the throwin and the ball is in the inbounds side of the throwin plane, the defense may freely attack the ball. See CB 7.6.3A-F...several of them backup that point.

Why do we enforce it that way then if that is not the rule?

Show me any case that declares the ball live and the throwin started when the ball is promptly picked up. There are NONE because that is not the meaning of the rule.


Consider 6-1-2-c. When is it at the disposal of the free thrower? When you either put it on the line or they catch it inside the semi-circle. It is not at the disposal any other way. You don't make it at the disposal of the thrower by handing/bouncing it to them anywhere else. They must be in the correct location.

....and there's the bell ending the round. It's a close one but I think the judges have to give it to Camron so far...

http://www.tnema.org/images/Misc/Announcer.gif

[/B][/QUOTE]
Why do we enforce it that way then if that is not the rule?

Show me any case that declares the ball live and the throwin started when the ball is promptly picked up. There are NONE because that is not the meaning of the rule.


Consider 6-1-2-c. When is it at the disposal of the free thrower? When you either put it on the line or they catch it inside the semi-circle. It is not at the disposal any other way. You don't make it at the disposal of the thrower by handing/bouncing it to them anywhere else. They must be in the correct location. [/B][/QUOTE]Have you read case book play 6.1.2SitB? In that one the ball is bouncing close to the end line but ain't OOB yet. It says "If the covering official judges it is at the thrower's disposal, he/she would start the count and the ball becomes live. In this case, in (a) <b>NO</b> timeout is granted". The COMMENT also says "The covering official shall start his/her throw-in count when it is determined the ball is available".

Comments?

well what if....???
 

After a made basket by B1, A1 kicks the ball up to himself and punches it to A2 who is OOB and he slaps it back to A1 -- but Coach B calls for a timeout simultaneously as A2 slaps the ball --


the question, I guess, is how many fans are watching the game?

Why do we enforce it that way then if that is not the rule?

Show me any case that declares the ball live and the throwin started when the ball is promptly picked up. There are NONE because that is not the meaning of the rule.


Consider 6-1-2-c. When is it at the disposal of the free thrower? When you either put it on the line or they catch it inside the semi-circle. It is not at the disposal any other way. You don't make it at the disposal of the thrower by handing/bouncing it to them anywhere else. They must be in the correct location. [/B][/QUOTE]Have you read case book play 6.1.2SitB? In that one the ball is bouncing close to the end line but ain't OOB yet. It says "If the covering official judges it is at the thrower's disposal, he/she would start the count and the ball becomes live. In this case, in (a) <b>NO</b> timeout is granted". The COMMENT also says "The covering official shall start his/her throw-in count when it is determined the ball is available".

Comments? [/B][/QUOTE]

Note the official had to judge that it was at the thrower's disposal/available (meaning the thrower could make use of the ball but hasn't). That is not my arguement. I'm fine with starting the count and not granting the timeout in this case...when the ball is in a location where it could easily be picked up and thrown in but the team hasn't done so.

My arguement is that at disposal/available is not triggered by the player picking the ball up unless the location is such that it could be thrown in from that spot. It makes no sense to start the count and not grant a timeout when, after the made bucket, the ball bounces into the hands of A1, who is at the FT line. Unless that player is already sprinting, it will take a couple of seconds for that player to get OOB with the ball.

Why should the new throwin team have differing amounts of time to make the throwin based on where the ball bounces after a made basket?

[Edited by Camron Rust on Jun 7th, 2005 at 08:16 PM]

Update on this topic.

I received a call (on a different topic) from our commissoiner who is also the state rules interpreter and former NFHS rules committee member.

While I had him on the phone, I asket about this topic. His interpretatoin was largely (but not completely) in line with your position.

His interpretation was that if they picked up the ball "near/at" the endline and the throwin is imminent, the count should start and the timeout be denied. If they picked up the ball away from the endline because the ball bounced away, then the count should not be started and the timeout should be granted.

Also, the "kick" would not by itself be enough to be at their disposal.


[Edited by Camron Rust on Jun 9th, 2005 at 07:50 PM]

Camron,
I agree 100% with everything that you wrote in that last post. There is judgment required here.

I definitely think that you need to take into consideration how far the ball is from the endline when judging whether or not it should be deemed live. Though, as you've just written, it certainly doesn't have to be OOB for it to be deemed live and the throw-in count started.

I didn't mean to convey that the kick by itself is enough to make the ball live. I was also envisioning that the ball was close to the endline. How close? That's a judgment call by the the official. A few feet should suffice. I do firmly believe that under normal circumstances the kick would occur during a live ball.

Thanks for taking the time to follow up on this issue with your interpreter. Everyone on this forum knows that you care about doing a good job.

Some of the scenarios you came up with earlier gave me a good laugh. :)