I seem to remember a thread a few weeks or couple months ago about a timing error and a "re-do" that caused almost record amounts of disagreement....well, not sure if this is the same thing, but.......

Grade 11 Boys AAU-type ball - NCAA rules:

Team B, down by 1, takes the ball out with 0:01 on the clock. B1 throws a baseball pass to the other end, while ball is in air, horn goes off. Ball sails over all the hands and goes OOB via opposite baseline.

Coach B screaming over clock error. Coach A says game over, or at least their ball because B1's throw-in went OOB.

Opinions first, then I'll let you know what we did.

Did the 1 second come off the clock or did the horn just sound without the clock moving?
Just curious since in your play the ball was never touched.

Anyway, it is an obvious timing error which is easy to correct since the throw-in pass went OOB untouched.

Team A's ball back down at the other end under their basket (in other words from where B1 did the throw-in) with that 1 second still on the clock.

[Edited by Nevadaref on May 31st, 2005 at 12:50 AM]

Clock operator (volunteer parent of team who was up by 1 :)) started clock before ball was touched.

The more I think about it - the more I think this isn't like that play before that stirred up all the disagreement....

We gave the ball back, put 0:01 back on the clock. B's second throw-in was caught but no shot. Team A held on. Yawn.

Unless the game was played in Munich, I can't agree with giving Team B a second opportunity at the throw-in. :)

If this play happened with 4:54 left in the first quarter, you wouldn't give them the ball back right?

[Edited by Nevadaref on May 31st, 2005 at 12:35 AM]

From the NCAA rulebook, Rule 2-12, Art. 15, page 53:

A.R. 33. With four seconds left on the game clock, A1 is throwing-in the ball to A2. The timer incorrectly starts the game clock before the passed ball touches or is legally touched by an inbounds player. The official recognizes the timer’s mistake and immediately blows his or
her whistle while the passed ball is in flight.

RULING: Since the timer has made a mistake, the official, with definite knowledge, shall place the correct time on the game clock. Play shall be resumed with a throw-in by Team A from the original throw-in spot.

Have I misinterpreted?

Nevadaref, if you're going to give the ball to Team A, then it has to be on the same baseline as where B1 sent the errant pass since nobody touched the ball before it went OOB.

Good rule citation, but that seems to be a different play.

In the NCAA AR, the official notices the clock starting incorrectly and immediately stops the play by sounding the whistle DURING the throw-in. Under NCAA rules, there is team control during a throw-in and the offense was not given the opportunity to finish the play, so that team is clearly entitled to keeping the possession with another throw-in opportunity. The NCAA only had to make a ruling on from where to conduct the throw-in. (Original location or the spot nearest to where the ball was when the official sounded the whistle.) They have chosen the original location.

Now in your play, you never said anything about an official blowing the whistle during the throw-in. You said that the ball went over everyone's hands and OOB. Therefore, that throw-in was completed, not interrupted as in the NCAA AR. Thus, I think your play doesn't fit within this AR.

I agree and that is what I intended to convey in my first post, but I can now see how you thought I meant the reverse.

I have gone back and cleaned up the language to clarify it.

Here's how it happened - maybe I didn't include enough detail....

B1 throws, horn goes off, I whistle, ball goes OOB.

I think we did it right.... :confused:

In that case, yes.

:)

So if the play happened so fast that the whistle after the incorrect horn happened at about the same time as the ball going OOB, it would not have been right?

I'm not sure I agree with that....

Is this where the arguing begins? :D

If an official doesn't sound a whistle DURING the throw-in, I don't know of any rule that would allow the throw-in to be done a second time.

In other words, if a player touches the throw-in pass or the ball goes OOB before a whistle is blown that play must stand. You can certainly still correct the clock.

If it is close, you have to make the decision on which event happened first. While that can be a tough call, I don't think that is the crux of the big timing argument.

I believe that one is what to do if B2 catches the throw-in pass, without play being stopped by a whistle, but then doesn't have enough time to score because of a premature clock start.

What rule says it can't be?

Maybe things are different in Canada, I donno. . . If B threw the ball into play, then the horn went off, then it went OOB, I would ignore the horn. Give the ball to A at the spot the ball was thrown from (NFHS rules) with 1 second on the clock. No way B gets a free second chance.

Oh?

What if the other B players, who may have had a chance at catching the pass, froze at the sound of the horn going off?

What if the same play happened, only there was an inadvertent whistle instead of the horn going off? Would you give the ball back then?

What's the difference? Yes, one is a timing error, one is an official's error. Both have the same effect.

I have no qualms whatsoever about re-starting the play. The rules would seem to back me up.

Oh, you want to play what if? ;) OK, what if B never had a shot at catching the long pass because it was way out of reach, and what if the second pass was successfully completed and B won the game on a desperate shot? I'm not so sure the rules support a replay.

A.R. 33. With four seconds left on the game clock, A1 is throwing-in the ball to A2. The timer incorrectly starts the game clock before the passed ball touches or is legally touched by an inbounds player. The official recognizes the timer’s mistake and immediately blows his or
her whistle while the passed ball is in flight.

RULING: Since the timer has made a mistake, the official, with definite knowledge, shall place the correct time on the game clock. Play shall be resumed with a throw-in by Team A from the original throw-in spot.

...sounds EXACTLY like what happened in my play.

My scenario and decision is supported by the exact wording of the appropriate rule in the rulebook.

Is this one of those things that you kind of had to be there? In the original sitch, there was NO whistle, right? In which case, the buzzer should be ignored, right? This is different from the situation you are citing, in which the ball WAS legally put in play.

It would appear to me that the do-over, while supported by rule, is also supported by common sense. If I have definite knowledge of the time on the clock, 1 second in this case, and I know that the clock was started improperly, and I wasn't able to blow the whistle before the instant when the throw-in ended (the ball landing out of bounds), why wouldn't I let them do it over?

If, for example, the clock was started improperly resulting in the horn sounding miliseconds before the throw-in ended, or at least close enough that sounding my whistle would have been impossible, then I think common sense application of the rule dictates a do-over.

What do y'all think?

If I recall the very long and controversial thread several weeks ago, it was this "common sense" thing that was most at issue.

Some argued that you can only do what the letter of the rules allows you to do - others argued there can/should be allowance for doing "the right thing" or what is in the best "spirit of the game".

In this case, I think my partner and I were able to both follow the rule interpretation, and do the right thing.

Canuck, I think, in this sitch, you got the call right.
When you blew your whistle, you whistled play dead BEFORE violation (OOB).

And you should be commended for being alert to blow your whistle in a timely manner.

However, if you, hypothetically didn't blow whistle until after OOB violation occurred, ball should go back to A with 1 second. As far as B players freezing when they heard horn, this does not seem realistic to me. Do shooters freeze when they hear horn? No, they continue shooting even if after horn and are generally oblivious to horn.

what I meant to say was that shooter still releases shot even if slightly after the horn has sounded.

TM,

I disagree on both points.

First, when the horn went off by mistake, a couple players - on both teams - froze and/or threw up their hands wondering what was going on. Same thing that happens when you have a shot clock that isn't reset, and it goes off in the middle of one team's possession.

Second, the rule interpretation doesn't say anything about correcting the mistake ONLY if the whistle goes off at a certain point (in this case, before the ball goes OOB). The only thing that matters here is that the officials recognize the error, and that there is definite knowledge of the time remaining.

Likewise.

My main point was that in your sitch the play was ruled DEAD when you blew your whistle so the OOB violation (after whsitle) was moot. If you hadn't blown your whistle until after ball had gone OOB, then the play was still LIVE and B violated by letting the ball go OOB. (Violation on B, throw-in for A).

The rule you cite mentions nothing about any violation so this is NOT the same situation as yours.

InBound Play
 

While I do understand wanting to give the ball back to B. It is not the right thing to do, the ball should go back to original spot and given to A. The rule is not up to interpretation or what we think is right. When the ball OOB automatic the play is dead and play by B was finish. Whistle stops play not clock horn. Shot on last second is indicated by whistle not horn. Your whistle was an indication of the ball being dead and play finish.

Al,
Please go take a look at what I wrote on the first page of this thread. It all depends upon whether or not there was a whistle DURING the throw-in. Canuck says there was, so by rule he was right to return the ball to Team B.
Remember his game was played using NCAA rules, not NFHS too.

Where Canuck and I disagree is in the case where he is unable to blow the whistle BEFORE the OOB violation occurs. He asserted that he would still give the ball back to Team B. I don't think that the rules allow that.



What you have written is not exactly correct. While you are right that the ball becomes dead when a violation is committed, not at the time when the whistle is blown to indicate the violation, you have failed to process the fact that Canuck blew his whistle PRIOR to the ball going OOB. Therefore, in this specific play, the ball became dead at the time the whistle was blown. The OOB violation never happens. Since the whistle was during the throw-in, NCAA rules give the ball back to Team B.

Also, a whistle at the end of a quarter or half is not required to stop play, unless a try for goal is in flight prior to the sounding of the horn.

If one is needed, the whistle should be blown once the try has ended. Of course, the ball is still dead immediately when the try ends.
Otherwise, the game clock horn, not a whistle, does make the ball dead and signal the end of a quarter or half.