I'm up to my ears in 3-whistle the last few weeks, because of some clinics I've been organizing. Here are some things that remain unanswered in my mind.

1) How far across the floor should trail be standing normally? It seems to be different in different leagues, and I'm not sure if there's a "prescribed" spot on the floor.

2) Can anyone tell me definitely whether men's officials tend to rotate less than women's? Is this a real tendency? Or just my imagination?

If it's real, is this because the game is different?

3) Why can't I find a men's official in the city of Portland that knows where his mechanics manual is?!? I've got like 4 or 5 women's manuals from various people, but every men's official I've asked says, "It's around here somewhere. But it's last year's." Or, "I don't think there is a mechanics manual. DO you mean the rule book? NCAA rules are on line." What heretofore hidden gene dictates this behavior?

4) Is it true in 3-whistle that the ultimate sin is calling across the paint? If there's anything worse, I need to know now, before I get in any more deeply.

First, let me point out I'm coming from HS and NCAA-W, so there may be some slight differences in NCAA-M.

1)I've been taught the trail's "home" spot is about the 28' mark, about 2 ft. out unto the floor. Then they can move in a semi-circle, from near half court further out on the court to close to the free throw line extended along the sideline. It would all be based on getting the proper angle for watching the players in your area.
2) I think women's officials do rotate a little more often than men's. I think it might have to do with more passing and more screens being set in the women's game, so it's a little more important for the lead to be ball-side.
3) It's just a "male" thing, because I'm also a women's official, and I know my manual is around here somewhere...
4) The ultimate sin is not calling an OOB play even though the player's feet are just barely on the line. (Oops, wrong thread. ;)) Actually, the lead should not be calling across the lane becaust that's the C's territory. And we've been taught to have a "strong" C, so they should have that drive, rebound, etc., not the L.

Hope that's a start.

1) When? During play? During FTs?

I'm not very far out on the floor, maybe 3 feet at the most during play. During FTs, I move closer to the circle, so as to not interfere with the coach behind me who may be trying to communicate with his players at the other end.

2) HS ball? Girls tend to pass the ball from side to side more, with the ball not settling as often. Therefore, we don't rotate as much in girls' ball.

3) All I have is an Officials Manual. I don't have a women's manual and a men's manual. If you're talking about the NCAA manual, it is available online.

http://www.ncaa.org/champadmin/baske...ingProgram.pdf


4) I don't know that there is an "ultimate sin." But I can think of far worse things than reaching across the paint. It's okay in theory that you don't want to reach across the paint. But the reality is that you have to do it sometimes.

In college and HS you should move as the ball moves. Not to make it too complicated, you should mirror the ball to some extent. If the ball crosses, you close down (move closer to the lane) and get ready to rotate. You should not stay in the same place.

NCAA Women's mechanics move where the ball is regardless of the ball settling. NCAA Men's and NF mechanics are only supposed to rotate when the ball settles. Also NCAA Women's has different coverage area all together for the lead (they have 3 point coverage) and is one of the reasons for more rotations.


I cannot speak for officials in your area at all. All I can say is that Men's mechanics are much more inline with the NF. So many of the teachings at the Men's NCAA level are the exact same I have received at HS camps or from clinicians. Maybe it could be that you know more Women's college officials. Who really knows what the deal is.

I would not say it was the ultimate sin, but something you really should not make a habit of doing. I really do hate it when a lead official makes a call that the center had a better look at. If you are going to call things across the lane or watch things across the lane, then that official should rotate.

Peace

I don't know if it is any worse, but it is as least as bad to call outside the 3pt line as the Lead, especially above the FT line extended!
(This doesn't apply as strictly to NCAAW because as Rut said they have a different floor coverage scheme and the Lead has the corner area below the FT line extended.)
The point is the same, however, you are calling (and looking in) someone else's area. If the officials are going to do that, then there is no reason to have three of them out there.
It is my experience the most of the older officials who were trained with and did many games and years in the 2-whistle system are the ones who call across the lane and otherwise out of their primary areas. They are simply used to looking there and making that call. It is difficult for them to adjust to the 3-whistle system because of this.

Wow -- y'all are the best!!

Anyone who disagrees, or has a different angle, or wishes they could unload a pet peeve, Feel Free!! I appreciate all the input I can get.

I got one.

How come wimmen in front of you in the express checkout line at the supermarket never get their wallets out of their purses before the cashier is done? They wait, and then they have to open their suitcase and rummage through it in the hope that there really is a wallet in there somewhere. After that, it's look-for-coupons time, followed closely by "I've got the change here somewhere".

Why is that?

Grumble, grumble, grumble.......

Yea! And, what about when you're drivin' down the road, mindin' your own business, and you pull up behind a car at a stoplight, and when the light turns green, THEN they turn on their left turn blinker.

More grumble...

What everyone else has said is pretty universal I think. I've never heard anything different. As far as reaching across the lane, you don't want to make a habit of it, but as always, if there's a train wreck, be patient, if the C doesn't grab it, you need to go get it. My biggest adjustment in going to 3 whistle (I should do this in two, but it doesn't seem to be as much a problem) is to make sure on a jump ball in the lane I just come in with my hand open, hitting the whistle and stopping play. I have the bad habit of going straight to the jump ball mechanic and in 3 whistle, with the extra pair of eyes, sometimes your C has a foul. I'm just adding that because writing it pounds it into my head.


[Edited by Junker on May 20th, 2005 at 10:08 AM]

Agreed. Also, I have a lot less problem with the L reaching across the lane than I would if the T were to do it. And I've seen it happen!!!

It's not unusual in the college or pro game to see the C reach across the line. Watch an NBA game and you'll see officials reaching to make a call that has to be made. As for the L, if the ball is opposite, outside the lane, he should be moving to the strong side anyway. So he shouldn't be in a position to reach across, unless he is just being lazy.

BTW M&M, that person is going around the world to the left. :)

I may be wrong on this because I don't have my books with me, but when looking at the mechanics pages in the FED book, doesn't it say to just come straight up with the "jump ball" signal? For example, if I remember correctly, when looking at that chart, anytime you have a violation, it shows you to put the hand up plus the violation mechanic. For the jump ball, it does not show to put the hand up first, only to go straight to the "thumbs in the air."

That being said, Junker your point is well taken, and if I am wrong on what I said above here, is something that I will incorporate into my game.

Well, it seems like you're the one teaching the mechanics, so you get to decide, based on what works best for you. I've become a fan of the half-moon trail - moving onto or off of the court as much as needed to have a good angle on a drive (it was taught to me by a . . . wait for it . . . SEC official). On TV, I've even seen trails who go over as far as the opposite FT lane line extended (during closely guarded counts, obviously).

I don't know about ultimate sin, but I always teach that if you're looking over there anyways, you might as well rotate over. I think the biggest 'sin' in 3-person is when there's a blatant train wreck and no one calls it.

:D

I've always been in favor of giving coaches who deserve it the full moon.

Ok, I'll throw in two cents worth. . .


I think you've got good advice on this so far. Generally, my starting point is the top of the 3-point arc (roughly the 28-ft line) and a couple steps onto the court. I agree with Mark that the Trail should use that "follow the arc" mentality.

I've also seen Trail officials go almost halfway across the court to continue a 5-second count when the dribbler has moved into the C's primary. I happen to like that, although I don't know if it's widely accepted.

I think you will start to see in the women's NCAA mechanics that the will have the Trail start out farther out onto the floor. In my last couple camps with (wait for it) SEC affiliation, they have talked about the the Trail in transition being more in the center of the court. So when the Trail gets into the frontcourt, he/she is probably 10-15 feet onto the floor. What I was told is that in transition as Trail, I should be coming up the court on the "volleyball" line, if you can picture what I mean. On a lot of basketball courts, there are also volleyball markings. Well, it was suggested to me that the Trail follow the volleyball line up the floor. Obviously, when you get to the frontcourt, this puts you much more than one or two steps onto the floor.

The reason I say you will see it in the women's game is that the camps I mentioned generally stress pro mechanics/philosophy, which is what the women's mechanics generally follow.


It's not your imagination. It definitely happens. As somebody else pointed out, it's b/c women move to where the ball is, even if it hasn't settled. Why? B/c they follow the pro mechanics. And if you watch the NBA officials, they don't wait for the ball to settle. Their goal is to complete their rotation before the ball is passed into the opposite post. So they don't wait for the ball to settle. If the ball moves across the lane, so do they.


In case you haven't figured it out by now, Juulie. . . men are idiots. 'Nuff said.

It's pretty close to the ultimate sin. As others have said, there are worse things, but those things are just as bad in a 2-whistle game. Sometimes, tho, you have to do it. Last season, I was Lead, table-side. Ball swung quickly opposite. A1 drove down the opposite lane line and took a lay-up. B1 just keeps moving under A1, bumping him below the waist and basically taking his feet away. A1 came down hard on his hip and hit his head. No whistle from my C. Come on, blow the whistle!!!! Nothing. So I blew mine. My partner at C is a respected, long-time, good official. But it's the first time I've worked with him and it was obviously out of my area. So I'm a little nervous about making the call. After I reported it to the table, my partner at T said, "Thank God we had something on that." So I instantly felt completely relieved.

Anyway, you don't want to do it unless you're sure you have to have it. This post is way longer than it should be. Sorry.

Two comments to add to the discussion - 1)the Trail needs to go wherever they need to be to call the play. As Chuck said, that has changed the "normal" view of the T having a certain spot on the floor where they go to/stand...if the T needs to be out on the court and below the head of the key - get there to be in position to make the call...2)calling across the key is only a "sin" if it is an on-ball call. In other words, if you see something away from the ball and it needs to be called, go get it...example: ball is on C's side above the free throw line extended, L has closed down but not rotated and we have: a)post players moving across the key to low post, and defender shoves post off the low block, or b)an illegal screen set at the high post corner of the key...C has the ball so L and T can certainly come "across" the key to make those calls...I think it does a disservice to the game to say that we "never" call across the key...

You are not wrong, junker is.

Agreed. Going up with an open hand is used for a violation, not a held ball. Go immediately to the thumbs up!

Chuck's words about the Trail are pretty good. Running up the court on the volleyball line will feel uncomfortable and cause the Trail to be deeper but it will also open some plays in the corner and down the paint up considerably. Of course given the situation the Trail must move for the best angle.
Calling across the paint isn't the ultimate sin to me because there will be plays when it is needed. Sometimes the C physically cannot see the foul or a secondary defender could have came from my area. On routine plays it is a no-no.
I think the ultimate sin is anything that goes against the crew concept. An example would be if I gave a T to a coach for unsporting behavior and while we are administering the free-throws one of my partners is right next to the coach having a discussion. I know some will disagree but there just isn't a good reason for this to me. Whatever communication I need to do with a coach could be accomplished with space between us. After that I can turn to observe the players. It is almost like "he gave you a T so now I will listen to your sob story." That is just one example. Although it isn't an absolute it is real close.

My point was that, especially in three whistle, you don't want to come with any mechanic until you make eye contact with your partners. I have been told, especially in the case of a scramble for the ball, hit your whistle, get you hand in the air and close in. After you make sure your partners don't have a foul that you didn't see, go to the jump. Coaches get a little irate when you have a double whistle and one guy has a jump and another has a foul. I'm pretty good about eye contact most of the time, but I need to make sure I wait with the mechanic on jump balls. This is something that I've almost always talked about and heard talked about in 3 whistle pregames.

The proper mechanic is to not use the stop clock signal and go straight up with the jump ball signal. I do not care what coaches say, this is not a double foul situation. If a coach cannot understand that one official has one thing and the other official has something first, then they will just have to get over it.

Peace

I've gotten the arc down once I'm set up in the T position in the frontcourt, and I tend to be a bit closer to the play when bringing the ball upcourt as new trail, but I'm still working on the 'volleyball line' mechanic (I like it, and started using it at camps, but our intramural courts are too small for me to have had it stick.)

I'm young and still learning so if everyone or anyone could explain to me why the Lead should hold his whistle on a play that is coming right to him and in which he has the best look I would love to listen. I believe that the half of the lane opposite the Lead should be a dual area. I know it takes discipline to hold off on this and I try it when I am working 2-man but I just always feel I have the better look.

The only time I feel the C has a better look is when a player gets beat and the player is hacking from behind.

The Center official saw the beginning, middle and end of the play. While the Lead only saw the contact at the very end which does not tell the entire story of what happened. Also, it is completely outside of your coverage area. If you are watching this area as the Lead official, then what are you missing in your area. The mechanics are in place so that if there is something going on at the opposite part of the lane, then rotate. Then when there is contact, you can see the play.

Peace

Thanks JRut. I feel like it was a stupid question now because I did not even think about the C being able to see the whole play. Sorry.

Another question. How do you hold off on something like that though when it is so close to you.

Because generally (not including little kid ball) there are lots of big bodies between the L & the other side of the paint. This means the L doesn't *always* have the best look and the L *usually* is preoccupied with what's going on in front of him.

Also, the C should have the best view of the matchup on his side to pick up LGP and he has the best view of arm contact on short jumpers in the paint & on his side.

The L *might* be able to reach across & help with secondary defenders who come forom his side to the other side but in that case he should probably be moving over anyway to anticipate the wreck.

Have patience young Skywalker. :)

Somebody went and saw Star Wars episode III!!!

It is not a stupid question. If you are not experienced in the situation, you would not know.

You hold off on making those calls because you would not be focused there. Does that mean it never happens? Of course it happens, but it should not be a regular occurrence.

Peace

You've got this kind of backwards, somehow. In 3-whistle, the half of the lane that is closer to the C is not dual coverage, it is the C's primary and you should try<font color = red>*</font> to hold your whistle when there's contact there.

In 2-whistle, that area is the Lead's primary and you should not defer to the Trail when there's contact there. A 2-whistle game is not the time for the Lead to practice holding his/her whistle to give a partner first shot at the call.

So turn it around. In your 2-whistle game be aggressive as the Lead on plays in the paint. In your 3-whistle games, force your C to be aggressive on those plays.

<font color = red>*</font>Try not. Do. Or do not. There is no try. (Hey, Episode III just came out. . .)

[Edit: darn, Dan beat me to it :mad: ]

Probably Sunday :)

btw...is it safe to say that the first Star Wars movie was born before you were?

I think the exception to all of this is the secondary defender that sets up in the lane to take the charge. I don't see the C being able to bring the dribbler and primary defender from out front to the hole and know whether the secondary defender truly had position or not. In this sitch, the secondary probably comes from the L's primary to gain position. It's much easier for the L to make that call, as he's been officiating that defender the whole time.

I also give consideration to this when a weak side defender is moving over to play defense, not just to take a charge.

Probably Sunday

btw...is it safe to say that the first Star Wars movie was born before you were?

It is not only safe to say it, it is a certainty.

By the way I have not been on this forum that long so I was wondering how you put part or all of someone else's post in yours without having to type it or copy and paste.

[Edited by refTN on May 20th, 2005 at 02:59 PM]

Click here

----------------------------------------------------------- \/

Hey, and by the way, welcome back...

Click on "Quote" at the bottom of the post that you want to reply to.

And the coaches don't get upset when you have an open hand and your partner has a fist? Unless you're both just blowing the whistle without any hand signal at all, the opportunity is there for a "double call." Talk and get it right (or step up and take it), but have something when you blow the whistle.

No better friend... :)

Really? Where ya been sparky? Didn't know you left. :D

Must be one of them NASCAR fans...

Capitalize Friend, and you'll be saying something!