Player A1 is underneath the backboard and has to jump back into the defender for a shot but before doing so A1 fake the shot and gets B1 to jump, A1 than jumps back to B1 and try to attempt a shot but could not because the contact made by A1 caused A1 to fall down. So what would you call here?

A) Player control foul
B) No call
C) Foul on B1


Now I was told by some veteran officials here that I could of called A, B or C.
But better of calling C because that way I won’t have to hear it from A1 and his/her coach and where contact was made by B1, most chances B1 will not argue that call since contact was made even though A1 initiated the contact.

But also was told that if that scenario was to happen above the 3 point line that I should call for a player control foul since its clear who initiated the contact as where the other one underneath the basket was in a crowd an the only person who really can see it is the official.

I noticed a lot of players fake their opponent in the air than jumps into them to get a call an a lot do get the call, I even seen it in The NBA and NCAA and officials is giving the offensive player the calls.

What did B1 do illegally?
I missed that part.
mick

Some of your veteran officials are idiots. We don't make calls to keep players or coaches happy. An official named Newton once said if you do that, then the players and coaches on the other team will be just as <b>unhappy</b> with the same call. And recommending making different calls for the same play if it happened somewhere else on the floor is just as stoopid. Maybe you should mention to those veteran officials that they should grow some balls.

The only 2 possible correct calls are (a) or (b). If there was enough contact there to make the shooter fall down, I'd call the team control foul.

Excellent situation.

This should never be a reason to call or not call a foul or violation.

Two things that are important here are:
<li>who initiated the contact</li>
<li>who stayed within their cylinder, thereby respecting the principle of verticality</li>

If a player has stayed within their cylinder, they cannot be called for a foul because they have not violated the principle of verticality. If a player does not adhere to the principle of verticality, they could be guilty of a foul.

If the contact is slight, you could ignore it either way. For a PC foul to occur, the same principles apply. Did the offensive player make contact to create room for him/her to shoot/pass/dribble, where otherwise they would not have room to shoot/pass/dribble? For a defensive foul to occur, the defender must not have jumped straight up, and initiated the contact on the shooter.

Cow patties. The same call should be made no matter where it happens on the court. The only other option is a no-call. But certainly not a foul on the other team.

I've seen these plays too, and most often on the replay, sometimes from two angles, you can see that the defender violated the principle of verticality. Easy call: foul by B.

Ok lets say that A1 is attempting a jump shot and see B1 comming hard to attempt a block and B1 clearly is jumping to block A1's shot and is no longer in its cylinder which now has broken the verticality rule and A1 jumps into B1 which is also breaking its verticality rule and initaited the contact so what do we have now?

Calling B1 for a foul because B1 left his feet is just wrong.
If B1 is displaced, or even possibly injured because of how he came down on A1, you must consider not only the Team Control, but also the Intentional Foul.

Often, A1 will illegally contact B1 with the resulting foul not affecting B1 and causing A1 miss the forced shot.
This contact, though not incidental, is being no-called with increasing frequency and sometimes is closely followed by a Technical Foul on a whining Team A or Player A.
mick


[xxssmen,
I inadvertently scratched your second post.
mick]

So you're saying that B1 jumps forward as he shoots and that,

a) A1 jumps within his plane of verticality.
b) A1 jumps toward B1, and outside of his plane of verticality.

In a) the foul would be on B1, PC foul. In b) the foul would be on A1 for blocking.

JR brought up a point that goes through my mind all the time when looking at plays: The defender didn't do anything wrong.

If the defender doesn't do anything wrong and gets called for a foul is that fair to him/her? I don't think so.

Actually, xxssmen clarified that in the post I inadvertently trashed.
mick

mick,
I quoted his post before you could delete.
Bad mod. :mad:
TH :)

[Edited by BktBallRef on May 18th, 2005 at 09:51 AM]

Wild(life??) Management
 

Tony,
You never did allow me any room for error. You are just very tough! ... But I like it that way! :)

In that spirit, I would like to point out that the post you quoted was xxssmen's third.

His second post pointed out that he saw B1 doing nothing illegally.
mick


<u><FONT COLOR = RED> <I>IMPORTANT</i> </FONT></u>
I have a twitching Skunk in my back yard, not quite *dead*, and not *live* enough to leave my yard on it's own. Assuming the little feller is never going to walk again and that he has evacuated all of his body fluids [air rifles are illegal in town, but if, somehow, he would twicth into another pellet], what do you do with a dead skunk?

"Veteran?"
 

xxss:

Remember to take the advice of some veterans with a grain of salt sometimes. I've often heard the saying that some people's 20 years of experience is only 1 year, experienced 20 times over.

Re: Wild(life??) Management
 

The only ones I know are in the middle of the road, stinkin' to high heaven.

Re: Wild(life??) Management
 

Send you an email, mick

Re: Wild(life??) Management
 

what do you do with a dead skunk?

[/B][/QUOTE]


Lose their phone #!!
AAR

Re: Re: Wild(life??) Management
 

Thanks, Chuck.

Re: Wild(life??) Management
 

Ah, I see! I didn't go back to see which one you tossed. Just knew that I had quoted one of his posts. Oh well, ya know what the say, "You have to be perfect the first time and improve after that."


Here, we would just call animal control to take it away. We have rabid racoons and skunks from time to time, so we usuallly call animal control anytime we see one acting strangely. And being in the back yard, where they normally wouldn't be found, is usually an indication that they maybe rabid.

Re: Re: Wild(life??) Management
 

Do you mean, "Sent you an email, mick?" :)

Re: Re: Wild(life??) Management
 

He was okay.
He was just happy to be alive.
He was just enjoying a lovely morning in the lawn.

Re: Re: Re: Wild(life??) Management
 

Mr. Grammar Guy obviously comes in many sizes and shapes. ;)

Mick - Keep us updated on the skunk issue. I need to know in case it happens around my neighborhood. And besides, it's kinda on-topic, you know, black and white stripes...

xxssmen I am 1 year out of high school and we were playing a game at a school where I did this very thing. I beat the guy to the hole but was underneath the backboard and as soon as I did my jump stop, I jumped backwards to attempt the shot. Another player was there who maintained his POV and I made the basket. There was a no call in this situation which at the time I wanted a foul but I feel now that I look at it, if anything it was a foul on me.

Mick is also right that these fouls up top are being no called which later on result in techs on the coaches, but I ask what can you do? Both violated POV. Unless one looks like he did something extra I would think you could do nothing but go with a no call.

Is it possible to go with a double foul?

I think part of the coaches' complaints have to do with us as officials not making that call consistantly. One night there's a foul called on the defender, and another night the same play will be no-called. This is why we are taught to "watch the defense". It's not easy to do, but it makes these calls, along with the block/charge, a lot more consistant. The "easy" way is to watch the shooter, see contact on the arm, and make a call on the defender, without seeing the whole play. That's why the NF committee made a point of emphasis a lttle while ago to not call the foul on the defense when the shooter initiates contact. The obvious example of that is the shooter leaning in on the defender, but the same principal applies in your under-the-basket play. But officals as a whole are still not making the call consistantly; and until we do, coaches might have a tendancy to get upset.

refTN,
If we referee the defense <U>and</U> see that the defender did nothing illegal, then the "double foul" in not an option with an innocent defender.

If both violated verticality, a double foul may be called, but you will want to have seen the entire play and to have considered other factors such as time, distance and intent.
mick

Use your officiating skills. Never touch an injured player - or injured skunk. Call animal control, DNR, police, or something similar. It could be carrying one of many diseases, including rabies (the skunk, that is).

<u><FONT COLOR = RED> <I>IMPORTANT</i> </FONT></u>
I have a twitching Skunk in my back yard, not quite *dead*, and not *live* enough to leave my yard on it's own. Assuming the little feller is never going to walk again and that he has evacuated all of his body fluids [air rifles are illegal in town, but if, somehow, he would twicth into another pellet], what do you do with a dead skunk?

[/B][/QUOTE]Call up some vultures. Look in the phone book under "coaches".

Seriously, vultures will do it for you. You have vultures U.P. there, don't ya?

If not, I've got a couple of 'em circling my house. Hmmmmmmm......wonder why that is? I'll give them your address.

http://www.feebleminds-gifs.com/cartoon-vulture.gif

Call up some vultures. Look in the phone book under "coaches".

Seriously, vultures will do it for you. You have vultures U.P. there, don't ya?

If not, I've got a couple of 'em circling my house. Hmmmmmmm......wonder why that is? I'll give them your address.

http://www.feebleminds-gifs.com/cartoon-vulture.gif [/B][/QUOTE]

I've only seen one vulture U.P. here, JR.
Not a pretty picture.
Had a Raven drop down to take a look, but like that old joke, "...It was twitchin' a little."
mick

wisref2,
He was healthy enough.
I think I'll wait for the "cover of darkness".
Not much smell left on the body. It's just a pain in the grass.
mick

Careful, though - the skunk itself might smell sweet enough, but it's the stuff inside that they squirt at preditors (like zebras, for example) that give off the odor. I guess there's also the chance it might be a pet of some kind, because I've heard those glands can be surgically removed.

So, any chance you can go out there and give it a scratch behind the ears to determine if it is a pet or just a wild creature?

Had a Raven drop down to take a look, but like that old joke, "...It was twitchin' a little."
[/B][/QUOTE]I guess you then could say <i>Quoth the raven "Nevermore"</i>?