Chuck explains

[Nevadaref]

Chuck,
Could you please post the quirky NCAA interp on when to use POI or the AP arrow for double fouls or double techs again. I recall that you pointed out some oddity in which the AP is used for one type but not the other. This came up in a discussion this past weekend since the NFHS is adding POI and I wanted to get it straight.

[Dan_ref]

I'm not Chuck but I did sleep at a Holiday Inn last night, so....

All types double T's and simultaneous T's go to POI.

All types double personals and simultaneous personal go to team in control with no shot clock reset. If no team control then use the arrow and reset the shot clock regardless of who gets the ball (maybe this is your 'quirk'?).

No FTs in any of these.

[ChuckElias]

Originally posted by Dan_ref
I'm not Chuck but I did sleep at a Holiday Inn last night, so....

All types double T's and simultaneous T's go to POI.

All types double personals and simultaneous personal go to team in control with no shot clock reset.

The "quirk" then is that if you have double personals while a try is in flight and the try is successful, you go to the arrow, since there was no control at the time of the fouls.

But if you have double T's while a try is in flight and the try is successful, you award the ball to the team that did not score the points, since at the POI, that team was going to receive the ball.

[Dan_ref]

Originally posted by ChuckElias

The "quirk" then is that if you have double personals while a try is in flight and the try is successful, you go to the arrow, since there was no control at the time of the fouls.

But if you have double T's while a try is in flight and the try is successful, you award the ball to the team that did not score the points, since at the POI, that team was going to receive the ball.

That's quirky.

[Dribble]

While we're at it...Chuck, why do you want to "Delete FED 3-4-9 and 3-4-10?"

[BktBallRef]

You just had to ask!

[Nevadaref]

Originally posted by ChuckElias

The "quirk" then is that if you have double personals while a try is in flight and the try is successful, you go to the arrow, since there was no control at the time of the fouls.

But if you have double T's while a try is in flight and the try is successful, you award the ball to the team that did not score the points, since at the POI, that team was going to receive the ball.

Thanks, Chuck. That is what I was looking for. AAR and I were discussing how we thought it would be handled under the coming change in NFHS. We'll just have to wait to see the actual wording of the new rule.

BTW why doesn't the NCAA just go POI for double personal fouls too?

[ChuckElias]

Originally posted by Dribble
While we're at it...Chuck, why do you want to "Delete FED 3-4-9 and 3-4-10?"

Because they're unnecessary. And even if they were necessary, they're inconsistant.

[ChuckElias]

Originally posted by Nevadaref
BTW why doesn't the NCAA just go POI for double personal fouls too?

I don't know for sure, but I think it's b/c of a double foul with a "loose ball" scenario. Ball knocked away and then A1 and B1 foul each other while trying to recover it. Going to the POI might be difficult. Who should get it? At the POI, the ball was just sitting there on the floor. Probably have to go to the arrow.

However, if you give it to the team in control, then it's very easy to determine who gets the ball. Team A still had team control, so they get the ball. No arrow needed.

[Dribble]

While we're at it then, Fed should delete the rule that states only an "American" flag can be worn.

International teams would be T'd up technically speaking (no pun intended) if they were to put their own country's flag on their uniforms! I'd hope that nobody would lack the common sense to T them up for it though. Same with your rules, too.

[Dan_ref]

Originally posted by Dribble
While we're at it then, Fed should delete the rule that states only an "American" flag can be worn.

International teams would be T'd up technically speaking (no pun intended) if they were to put their own country's flag on their uniforms! I'd hope that nobody would lack the common sense to T them up for it though. Same with your rules, too.

The 'N' part of NFHS stands for 'National', not 'International'.

Just sayin'.

[Nevadaref]

PENALTY FOR DOUBLE FOULS CHANGED TO POINT OF INTERRUPTION (7-5-9, 4-36): The penalty for double personal, double technical and simultaneous fouls has been changed from an alternating-possession throw-in to resuming play from the point of interruption. A new definition of “point of interruption” has also been added to the rules book. If the point of interruption cannot be determined e.g., unsuccessful try in flight, the alternating-possession arrow will be used.


It appears that the NFHS has chosen to differ from the NCAA here. They have done what I asked earlier in this thread and just gone to POI for double personal fouls. The NCAA goes back to the team in control without a reset of the shot clock. Therefore, if this comment accurately reflects the wording of the actual new rule, when there is a double personal foul during a try for goal which is successful, we will NOT use the AP arrow. The team that was to receive the throw-in for being scored upon will still receive the ball. If the try is unsuccessful, the AP arrow is used.

[ChuckElias]

Originally posted by Nevadaref
It appears that the NFHS has chosen to differ from the NCAA here. They have done what I asked earlier in this thread and just gone to POI for double personal fouls. The NCAA goes back to the team in control without a reset of the shot clock. Therefore, if this comment accurately reflects the wording of the actual new rule, when there is a double personal foul during a try for goal which is successful, we will NOT use the AP arrow. The team that was to receive the throw-in for being scored upon will still receive the ball. If the try is unsuccessful, the AP arrow is used.

Right. But what do we do with a double foul during a "loose ball" situation, where there is team control but no player control? What's the POI in that case? Looks like the arrow to me.

[Nevadaref]

"A new definition of “point of interruption” has also been added to the rules book. If the point of interruption cannot be determined e.g., unsuccessful try in flight, the alternating-possession arrow will be used."

We'll have to see exactly how the NFHS defines POI, but I think this should answer the "loose ball" question.

[blindzebra]

Originally posted by ChuckElias

Because they're unnecessary. And even if they were necessary, they're inconsistant.

Why are they inconsistent?

If you have something in the name of the team that can obscure the number, these rules keep that from happening.

If a team is called the Angels and has a halo around the A, that name has to go above the number, so the halo does not obscure the number.

If a team is called the Devils and a little forked tail comes from the S, the name must be below the number for the same reason.

It may be a bit nit-picky, but it does make sense and is completely consistent, because it deals with decorations that go in seperate directions.