I had an aau game yesterday and this happened, but disregard that and say it was a rivalry game during the season or a championship game in the district, region, etc.

Team A has made a great comeback, and the game is tied with Team A in control of the ball and about 15 seconds left. A1 drives to the hole and scores with about 3 seconds left. B1 goes and quickly tries to inbound the ball. In an attempt to chuck it down the floor he steps forward with his foot and stepped on the line. Not a little bit but about 1/3 of his size 12. So of course I call it and give A the ball back with 1.5 left. A tosses the ball up, it gets touched game over.

I was told after the game that you do not make that call to end the game. He said you let that go because after the game the coach who lost is checking you off and you are not working one of his games again. I agree with the point my superior made about me probably being the only one who saw it so let it go.

It is hard for me to swallow this. I started officiating because I hated the job alot of officials were doing in the assosciation that was allocated to my high school's district. I wanted to up the integrity of the game that I felt the officials in this certain assosciation were not upholding.

I never understood what alot of people meant when they said there was alot of politics involved. I thought they just meant you kissed the bosses #ss real well and got better gigs, but apparently it also means not taking the ball out of the other teams hands with seconds left no matter if they commit an obvious violation.

Please someone help me feel better about me needing to swallow my whistle?

For what it's worth, and all political stuff aside, I think you made the right call from the way you described it. This situation is no win. If you don't call it and Team A's coach clearly saw the violation that you ignore, you're in the same post-game boat. I think that this blatant a violation must be called. Are there times I would ignore this type of violation. Yes. If they barely touch the line, if the game is a blow-out and no team is pressing, maybe some other situations. I think in this case you called it right. I say good job.

Well, in the first place it is legal for the thrower to step <b>on</b> the line, as you said s/he did above. They can't legally step <b>over</b> the line though--i.e. on the court.

Assuming that's what you meant......

I disagree completely with the "superior" that told you to ignore that call. Not only did the thrower get away with an obvious violation, in this particular case s/he got an unfair advantage out of doing so too. Instead of taking the extra second needed to establish themself legally OOB and set their feet properly, the thrower saved some time with an iillegal move.

Personally, I would rather not officiate than work under circumstances where some goober of a coach could blackball an official for making the proper call. I gotta look at myself in a mirror after the game. I just don't wanna work under those circumstances or for coaches like that in the first place.

How about the <b>other</b> coach and the <b>other</b> team? Certainly not fair to them to ignore a violation just to keep the opposing coach happy, is it?

As for the politics, I'd do a little discreet checking to see if your "superior" wasn't just maybe blowing some smoke up your butt. I can't believe that ignoring an obvious violation would be the norm anywhere, except for maybe- wait for it- the SEC. (:D)

I wouldn't worry about this particular superior too much. Just nod your head up and down, and then ignore him. If the whole association is like him though, then I don't know what to tell you. You then either put up with it or maybe take up a different game to officiate if it's really bothering you.

What he said.

Sometimes, refTN, you have to get into a situation of 'game management'. That is one of the things that you are judged on in a camp situation. You know the rules, you know what a violation is vs. a foul, you know book definitions. But do you know when to 'pass' on a foul and just call it out of bounds? do you know when to call a push on a rebound vs. a no call because team A got the ball anyway? Those are some of the things that assignors look for, not how many calls you made or how many violations you picked up. I'm hoping this is more of what the superior meant when he made the statment to you, but I wasn't there so I don't know.

And to second JR, I hope you made the call because he stepped OVER the line, and not on it.

I do not think this has anything to do with politics. I think that has to do with stupidity. If an evaluator is going to hold over your head something that took place at an AAU game that does not say much about your area. If the call was that obvious and you could see it on tape, I would not worry about it.

Peace

I guess this is where my stupidity kicks in. You mean the player can step on the line as long as his foot is not touching the playing area.

By the way his foot was touching the inbounds area.

Just for my knowledge can I have where this is in the rule book?

NFHS rule 9-2-5-- "The thrower shall not carry the ball <b>onto</b> the court."

The boundary lines are out-of-bounds. The playing court is in-bounds.

Regarding "on the line" vs "over the line". I think since he also stated that 1/3 of the shoe was "on the line", it's pretty likely a substantial portion of it was inbounds (given a standard court).

Geometrically speaking, the boundary line is only the inside edge of the painted boundary <em>stripe</em> since a line has no width.

Not stupidity, inexperience.

Yes, a player standing OOB can touch the line, as long as he/she doesn't cross the line and touch the playing area.

Just think of it in reverse. Can a player with a legal dribble on the court touch any part of the line? Class? Anyone? NO Therefore, the line is OOB, and a player standing OOB for a throw-in can touch the line, as long as they don't cross onto the court.

Rule 7-6-3 and 9-2-11 Penalty

Peace

Most overlooked part of the rule book. "BASKETBALL FUNDAMENTALS"

Like stated the line is OOB. If you work on some bigger courts, they usually have a thick 2 foot "line" painted to mark OOB, the players stand on that durng a throw-in. Same idea.

Great section to read every once in a while.

No rule book quote needed
 

refTEN ,
I don't have the rulebook here but you don't need it....the end line is out of bounds . Think of it in another way....if the player was inbounds and stepped on the line he would be considered out of bounds . Now just reverse that logic and you have your explanation of why it is ok to step on the line when you are OOB .
A partner of mine called something similar last week (throw in)and was quite emphatic when he smacked the floor and said "stepped ON the line.....Blue ball". Nobody said a word to argued with him so I kept my mouth shut....would anyone have done differently ???? I did mention this to my partner after the game and initally he questioned me on it until we talked a little about it .
I am sure someone will quote the rule book for the out of bounds....

evidently my hunt and peck method of typing is REALLLLLY SLOOOOW as 6 people have responded since I started typing the response above .

Beat me to it. This is the reference point. Plus the fundamentals. Good stuff!!
AAR

A lot of people beat <b>me</b> to it already. :D

Peace

Thanks for the incites guys. I love being able to learn. I read my rule book and case book everyday trying to read everything and apparently I had not read this part yet.

By knowing this it makes things even worse for officials. If you call OOB on a player and said his foot was on the line, and not over the line fans won't say a word but you are wrong as far as the rules go. If you don't call out of bounds in the same situation and some fans see it you will get ripped the rest of the game.

Isn't it great to be an official and know you are right while every one else is ignorant of the rules and are booing you all over the place.

I loving being an official!!!!

I still ask the question do you make this call or leave it in a late game situation where very few fans if any saw the kid touch the line? For me I want to make the call. I don't want to be the official that doesn't call something that is automatic at any other point in the game. whether it is good or not I am going to pass on some things late in a game that I would usually take in the first half, but here in accordance to fouls I believe whole heartedly in the advantage/disadvantage philosophy.

If a defender reaches across the offensive players body and creates contact I will call it probably early in the game, but late in the game if it causes the player to lose the ball I have a foul and if it doesn't then play on. This are the things I am talking about.

But I need more incite so keep it coming.

I feel the pain..
 

I can feel the pain of refTN!

This past weekend, I had a similar situation, only Team A was leading by 3 with 20 seconds to play. Last game of the Saturday night around 10:00pm.

Team a inbounds and is pressured near the endline in their backcourt. A1 then tries to pivot out of the pressure and unfortunately steps on and over the endline. Me being ever watchful as the new trail administering, looks right down the line and of course, I blow the whistle, and point to the spot of the infraction. Team B now inbounds under their basket and off course hits a 3 to take the game into O.T. "Rats", looks like I won't get home till at least 11:30, and on a Saturday night to boot.

Then what makes matters worse, we go to OT and of course Team A falls behind, and with the clock approaching 1 minute to go, team B steals the dribble at the old hash mark in their frontcourt. B1 breaks away from A1, so of course, A1 tries to prevent B1 from a clear breakaway and you guessed it, pushes B1 squarely in the back with both hands, arms fully extended. Of course, I have Intentional. Gym goes ballistic, except for team B. Team B goes on to win. On the way out, after about 15 minutes, into a rainy night, around 11:00 pm, I get feedback from a fan on how bad my call was. Which one I don't know, and didn't stick around to ask.

But, I do feel the pain. Tough way to end a 12 hour day!

goose

If I see it, I call it...doesn't really matter what "time" is left on the clock. Having said that, I seriously doubt I would have seen that foot unless he/she took a huge step out onto the court...got other things to be watching for and not going to focus my attention on that one foot.

What did we incite? (Sarcasm sponsored in part by Mr. Annoying Grammar Guy.)

To get to your actual point. . .

It's kind of scary how often this is happening in the last month or so, but once again, I find myself agreeing with Rut. :) This is not an issue of politics. It's not about who you snuggle up to after association meetings, or who else is getting assignments that they don't deserve.

This is about whether or not you should enforce an obvious violation that gave one team a clear advantage in the final seconds of a close game. And I agree with (what seems to be) the majority here. You call it. And you call it precisely because it gave the throw-in team a big advantage. As JR pointed out, the inbounder saved some time by not being completely OOB. And when you have to go the length of the court in 3 seconds, that's a big advantage.

And, in fact, the NCAA handed down a dictum from on high a few years ago on this very subject. Your situation occured in a D1 NCAA tournament game (women's, I believe). The official did not call the violation, but it was obvious to the defensive coach and to the cameras. There was a bulletin or something (Bob or rocky may have the precise details) that instructed officials to call the violation. Even in a close game. Even with no defensive pressure.

I hope that somebody will have a reference for that bulletin, b/c I don't have it, but I remember it happening.

For a l'il more insight, check out NFHS case book play 9.2.5. It's fairly close to your situation. Note the COMMENT. That tells you where the FED is coming from rules-wise:

<i>"Whether or not there was defensive pressure or whether or not stepping on the court was inadvertant, it is a violation and <b>NO</b> judgement is required in making the call".</i>

RefTN-

Hold that head up! You did the right thing. One of the most important attributes an offical can possess is COURAGE. That means you make the right call when it needs to be made, regardless of the amount of time on the clock. Sounds to me like that is exactly what you did. In this case, it doesn't really matter who else saw it-- you saw it. You were supposed to see it. You made the call. It was the right call. If I'm you, I would have a hard time living with myself if I held my whistle there. This isn't a judgement type call, it's an automatic. You did your job, so be proud.

I agree, make the call. My game mgmt. soapbox really had nothing to do with this play.

Put it this way, refTN.

If you had allowed the violation to occur, and team B throws a long pass to hit a shot, and the shooter gets fouled to end the game, you incorrectly influenced the game by NOT making the original violation call. Courage and integrity are some of the ingredients needed to make a good official, and you displayed them here. If that superior/evaluator feels that a call like that, in that sitch, would not get you work in a particular assoc./conference, you don't need to work there anyway. Be able to look yourself in the mirror, and be willing to make the calls you see fit. If it will stand on tape/video, it's a good call.

Don't have a reference handy, but there was a bulletin...after the UCLA tournament game...that violation was one of the "huge ones" I mentioned earlier - she was way onto the court when she passed it...basically the bulletin said that we cannot miss those types of violations - they MUST be called.

Seeing the rules reference has already been posted, an easy way to remember this is "What would I do on a court where the out-of-bounds is indicated by an 8" band?"

It is OOB if a player steps on the line while in bounds. It is not in bounds if a player throwing the ball from out of bounds steps on the line (which as previously discussed is entirely OOB).

I would make the call and let the superior justify why he is blackballing you for making the proper call. Good job!

Or even more, the Vanderbilt floor which has a band several feet thick.

Good call.

You said this was an AAU game, but to pretend it was a big game. But in a big game, I wouldn't expect this to happen. Any game with good caliber players and no kid would cost his team the game on such a stupid move on his part.

Again, good call, no matter the level.

But has been pointed out, Brian, it did happen in a big game. UCLA women in the NCAA tournament!! It happens.

Homer Simpson voice: Doh! :D

But that's why I said:

I had a game on a non-regulation court this past season which had a restraining line 3 feet inside the court from the end lines because there was not sufficient room to inbound the ball without it. Pre-game we told captains an coaches that nobody could go in there to defend or receive a pass. No incidents until late in the 3rd qtr when an offensive player for the visitors went clearly into the zone to receive an inbound pass. The defender had stayed behind the restraining line. Advantage for the offense. Whistle for violation. Visitors coach went berserk because I had not called it all game [because there were no violations to that point]. But if the defender had gone into the zone alone and made the steal and no call was made, the coach would have gone berserk in the other direction.

Make the call because if a long pass had been completed for a layup at the other end and you had NOT made it, the other team would have been cheated. See 1972 Summer Olympics. ;)

We try to minimize the incites and maximize the insights.

Buuuuuuut . . . Vanderbilt is in the - wait for it - SEC.

Had similar situation in a game. Happened to be Special Olympics but that doesn't matter. Foul with 1 second left and the player made both throws to win. A parent later told me that refs shouldn't determine the outcome. I told him that if I called the foul, I determined the outcome. And if I didn't call it, I determined the outcome by giving the defense an unfair advantage. He just laughed and said he'd never thought of it that way.

You're going to get booed anyway, so get booed for doing the right thing.

:D You beat me to it!

But, seriously, how do you determine how thick the line really is? I know on TV I can see how wide it is, but I guess I've never really thought about how thick it might be.

Or how thick I might be...

Well, a line has no thickness, which is why the painted "line" is entirely OOB.

I don't know about other gyms, but at GW, the OOB "stripe" is at least 3 feet wide on the baselines.

If you talk to my wife, the paint chemist, she will call you out on that one. A painted line most certainly has a thickness (although it's usually measured in microns). I guess I was just wondering how many gallons it would take to make a line several feet thick?

(Man, I need to get back to work...)

(speaking geometry here)

No line has thickness, painted or otherwise. In fact, if it is a line, it has no end. The standard <em>sideline</em> is really a 2" x 84' rectangle. The inside edge of it is an 84' line segment. That painted line is actually a rectangular solid: it has length, width, and thickness.

Exactly.

Which has nothing to do with the original question about where the OOB line is; I was just trying to point out the wastefulness of using soooo much paint to create a line several feet thick in...you guessed it...the SEC.

That's a peeve of mine, being told that refs shouldn't decide the game. The players decide the game, period. You have to call the rules correctly, without regard for the affect on the outcome of the game.

The players decided the real outcome. The refs just called attention to the reality.

Thanks mplagrow and rainmaker. I wanted to tell the guy that told me this the same thing, but I didn't want him to think I was disrespecting him.

You have to respect your elders.

That's not a line . . .

(I need to get back to work, too)