OK this happened to me about 2 weekends ago -- girls jv/varsity tourney im the trail...

offense has the ball about 5-8 feet off the block in my primary -- defense strips the ball and the offensive player falls to the ground -- lucky for her the ball bounces right back into her lap -- she is sitting there on the floor with the ball and her defender was just reaching in a bit to get the ball (no foul and it was more like a peck here or there) in abot 2-3 seconds now there are 8 girls around her kinds boxing out trying to get at the ball but no real hard contact -- this has now got all the signs of a train wrek and my partner is about 3 feet away and im about 10 feet away -- i didnt close in because my partner had the play clearly so i let her take my primary there -- so to derail the impending trains i blow the whistle and call a jump ball as a defender was right over her and about to pounce. Let me be clear there was NO jump ball but I felt it was the best solution for the impending pileup in an already physical game. No coach or player argued or said a word as i blew a hard whistle closed out and pointed at the 2 who were supposedly involved.

My partner thought that was a bad move...I usually dont anticipate calls but to not blow this play dead where it stood would have been inviting potential disaster. good or bad move on my part -- should i have let it play out?

No good can come from this play. When you've got girls on the floor, scrambling for a ball, find somthing. :)

typical
 

As you noticed, nobody argued. Call the jump ball before the train wreck gets worse. That is, if you are reffing girls or grade schoolers. Or worse yet, grade school girls!

I not sure I can agree with calling something that you know didn't happen. I would immediately call a foul or travel if one happened.

I recently read through a fairly intense thread on "Look at the feet" and the idea of passing on a violation that was apparently clearly seen. My thought on that was, if you see it, call it.

In like manner, I don't agree with calling something that didn't happen just because you anticipate that it might. Why not anticipate that the girl on the ground would roll around and commit a traveling violation and call that?

I admittedly have made an error or two by anticipating a play (like a foul) and calling it, only later to think, "I messed that one up." But I don't agree with knowingly calling something you didn't see.

If you have 10 people all corraled in a little circle I wouldn't see why you wouldn't move in. Basically you're leaving your partner to monitor 10 people why you sit 10 feet away. And how do you expect to call a jump ball from 10 feet away between two people at the bottom of a pile that your partner is three feet away from. I would have at least moved in before calling my jump ball.

I heard about a ref about thirty years ago blew his whistle on a similar play that wouldn't seem to end and yelled, "Too much action! White ball!" :D

Disagree completely. There's no reason in the world for you to be that close, even if it was in your primary to begin with.

Who's gonna get anything else that now may happen- even a few feet away from the girl on the floor? Answer: Nobody- because neither of you will be able to really see anything if you're both that close.

Leave the call to the official that's 3 feet away and keep an eye on what else might be going on around the play. You're better off keeping a wide view on the play. Getting too close to a play like this can block you off just as bad as being too far away.

Btw, I'm with Camron. Don't call a jump ball until it actually is a jump ball. Don't penalize the player with the ball by not allowing her to legally pass the ball, call a TO, etc. There's no reason in the world to blow a whistle on this play until something- foul,violation, TO request- actually happens. If a defender just wants to jump on her, call the foul. That's the right call- and the proper call. You don't allow illegal contact by the defender when they're going for the ball. We had a POE from the FED a few years ago saying exactly the same thing.

The answer to the original question of this thread is "call what happens".

How far do you think 10 feet is?

There's absolutely no reason to move in any closer. You need to stay wide enough to see all 10 players.

As for the play, I stand by my original post and I honestly don't think that we're that far apart. I don't think you have to call a jump ball. But you'd better be watchful and get ready to call something because 99 times of out 100, you're going to have a foul, violation, or held ball. Find it before somebody gets hurt.

thanks for the input
 

this would have been the same game where i learned to always roll the ball -- after a full court pass to my partner that hit the only damn player on that side of the court...square on the head -- O what a jackass i felt like (btw she was also the best player on both teams)

If I'm the Referee, I've got a held ball.

If I'm the Umpire, I've got simultaneous fouls - one personal and one technical. Then let my P figure out what to do. :D :D

Re: thanks for the input
 

Quite the interesting sounding game. How many girls were playing on both teams? ;)

I can see 10 players from 10 feet away better than I can see 10 players from 3 feet away.

I agree with the call - IF, and only IF you wait until there is actually a hint of a tie-up.

If all you have is players standing around, you've got nothing.

The minute a player is able to reach down and even remotely tie-up the ball, then come in hard with the AP.

Yes, preventative officiating is good, but I have a feeling you may have jumped in too early on this one - maybe only 2-3 seconds too early, but too early nontheless.

As well, if you were more than twice as far away from the play as your partner, you'd better be less than half the distance away when you make the call.

Don't anticipate the call, anticipate the play. I must agree with your partner on this one. Only call what happens.

Depends on the sitch
 

If you've got a quick whistle the second that two girls from opposing teams have a hand on the ball, nobody will complain. You can be quicker on the whistle with that jump ball call than one in the open court. Odds are also pretty good if there are bodies on the floor that you could have a travel.

Re: Depends on the sitch
 

You may be right that no one will complain, but this just reinforces bad behavior by us officials. If one of the girls bounces the ball above her head while keeping her hand on top of the ball, and we call a carry, no one will complain. If a player dribbles from the backcourt to the frontcourt, takes one step into the frontcourt, then steps back again, and we call "over and back", no one will complain. But these are all wrong calls. The same with two girls having a hand on the ball - that is not the definition of a held ball. So we need to be careful about applying the "nobody will complain" saying to how we base our calls. I know exactly what you mean when I see one of those scrums on the floor - I cringe as I get in closer, hoping nobody's going to come out of there with blood all over their face, and the coach is calling for some sort of foul, and parents are screaming that their little girl got hurt, and two other players start flinging elbows, and all hell is breaking loose...so, quick, we have to call SOMETHING to avoid this mess!! But calling something that isn't there just to avoid the possibility of saving something messy is wrong. The primary official needs to get in there to see what's really going on. Did the girl travel going down to the floor? Get that call. Is the girl with the ball excessively swinging her elbows so the other one can't grab it? Call that. Did the defensive player jump on top to try and get the ball? Then call that. Is the coach or one of the players trying to ask for timeout before the defense does get ahold of the ball? Then grant the TO. But let the play happen, and call what's REALLY there; don't make up something just to avoid watching a messy play.

Proper thought process and terminology should be - Anticipating the play, not the call.
While I agree that your awareness of preventive officiating skills and anticipation is commendable, if we start calling things that are "going" to happen just because the game could get "messy" then we are doing a disservice to ourselves and the game.
Granted, you probably made the call that would have been made a majority of the time in that situation, nonetheless it didn't actually happen.
There are so many factors that can go into this play(and many of them have been mentioned)!
Some other concerns:
Who was opposite table and were they far enough away from the action to "look through" the scrum to be aware that the bench may be trying to call a timeout?
What were the events leading up to the individual ending up on the floor?

There are so many things to look at, I just brought up a couple.
Thanks for thread!
AAR

The very nature of girls basketball means that some times it is unpredictable. Because of this, don't jump the call because you think you know what might happen. In the situation that you mentioned, all types of stuff could happen before a jump ball, i.e. a foul by the defense, a player control foul, a travel, a timeout, a pass; just to name a few. I would say you need to watch very intensely and be prepared for any of those things to happen, and then call it when it does. While I think your intent is commendable, it may not be necessary. A lot of times, we as officials anticipate a call like that to save ourselves trouble, rather than doing it for the girls. If you are trying to protect the girl on the floor, that is one thing, if you are just trying to avoid an ugly play that is difficult to officiate, that is another. Either way, to echo the other posts, anticipate the play, not the call.

Re: Re: Depends on the sitch
 

OK, let me redeem myself here. Obviously, whether people will complain or not doesn't matter in how you call the game. If it did, you may as well hang up the whistle. I will admit that my whistle comes a little more quickly in a scrum in the interest of protecting the players and keeping the game under control. Nobody has ever criticized a quicker whistle in that situation. Maybe you disagree with that philosophy. My point was that I think coaches, parents, and players all understand, and even expect you to be watching closely for the first reason to put an end to the mess. I've seen games get out of hand when there's a series of out-of-control plays. Frustration runs higher and you can lose control. Do I invent calls? No. But I'm looking a little more intently at those plays.