New Uniform Rule

[johnny1784]

Originally posted by lukealex

So it is not unreasonable to return to the dressing room, but not required to return to the dressing room? Personally I do not feel I should call a T to change a bloody jersey, but if the rule tells me to I will.

What is the coaching box actually defined as?

I do not think you would call a "T" just because of blood on a jersey and it needs to be changed. A "T" is used when a player deliberately removes his/her jersey while on the court, such as showing you up with acts of unsporting behavior or showing off his/her undies/boxers for the crowd. It is a judgment call based on the rules and pre-game conference with your partner. The solution when a player has blood on jersey or needs to change, would direct the player to change in a dressing room or away from the view of others, right?


Contact your association. Each has their own guidelines, just like some states allow a mercy rule with conditions while others have not adopted the mercy rule.

[lukealex]

Originally posted by truerookie
rules committee clearly states, they do not find it unreasonable for a player to return to the dressing room to change jersey in the case of having blood on the uniform. All other is fair game.

Changed the wording:
So it is not unreasonable to return to the dressing room, but not required to return to the dressing room? Personally I do not feel I should call a T if a player changes his/her bloody jersey courtside, but if the rule tells me to I will.

D. Coaching box:

What is the coaching box actually defined as?

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally posted by lukealex

Changed the wording:
So it is not unreasonable to return to the dressing room, but not required to return to the dressing room? Personally I do not feel I should call a T if a player changes his/her bloody jersey courtside, but if the rule tells me to I will.

What is the coaching box actually defined as?

NFHS rule 1-13 lays it out.

[johnny1784]

Originally posted by lukealex

Changed the wording:
So it is not unreasonable to return to the dressing room, but not required to return to the dressing room? Personally I do not feel I should call a T if a player changes his/her bloody jersey courtside, but if the rule tells me to I will.

What is the coaching box actually defined as?

Well, if you inform the player before they change, that he/she should change in the dressing room, then you had used sound game management preventing from issuing a T. Base your actions of the players intent, right? Was he/she purposely removing their clothing, exposing skin/underwear unappr0prialty and deliberately?

Per your NFHS Basketball Rule Book; Rule 1-13-2, page 16: The coaching box shall be outlined outside the side of the court on which the scorer's and timer's table and team benches are located. The area shall be bounded by a line 28 feet from the end line, the sideline, an line no more than 14 feet from the 28-foot line toward the end line, and the team bench. These lines shall be located off the court, be 2 inches wide.

Note: By state association adoption, the head coach may be off the bench in front of his/her seat within the confines of the designated coaching box to give instructions to his/her players and/or substitutes. State associations may alter the placement of the 14-foot (maximum) coaching box.

This is a State's option to utilize a coaching box and so is the mercy rule.

Ok?

[johnny1784]

D. Coaching box:[/B][/QUOTE]
What is the coaching box actually defined as? [/B][/QUOTE]NFHS rule 1-13 lays it out. [/B][/QUOTE]

I should have waited for a much shorter and wiser response.

[rainmaker]

Originally posted by johnny1784
Base your actions of the players intent, right? Was he/she purposely removing their clothing, exposing skin/underwear unappr0prialty and deliberately?.

This is a State's option to utilize a coaching box and so is the mercy rule.

It appears as though the T for removing the jersey is not optional. THe wording is quite clear in the comments. The wording of the coaching box and the mercy rule both state clearly that they are optional. So I don't think you can compare.

I'm not saying I agree with this interp. I think it's assinine to make a player walk clear to the locker room to change a bloody jersey. But if they say we have to, then we have to. Intent isn't mentioned except to say that it doesn't matter.

[M&M Guy]

Originally posted by rainmaker

It appears as though the T for removing the jersey is not optional. THe wording is quite clear in the comments. The wording of the coaching box and the mercy rule both state clearly that they are optional. So I don't think you can compare.

I'm not saying I agree with this interp. I think it's assinine to make a player walk clear to the locker room to change a bloody jersey. But if they say we have to, then we have to. Intent isn't mentioned except to say that it doesn't matter.

As already discussed, it's not an option, it's the new rule; the jersey cannot be removed anywhere around the court. Also remember, it's not our job to tell them to change it, or how to change it, or where to change it, it's just our job to tell them they cannot play with a bloody jersey. It's up to the coach to decide if they want that player back into the game, and how to do it if they do.

I've been wondering why the committee would impose such a restriction, even penalizing uniform replacements. I can see the taunting or disrespect issues of pulling off the shirt, but why penalize a simple changing of the shirt? Since I've been enlightened by a few volleyball people about their shirt issues, I just wonder if it somehow has to do with equality. People (fans?) complained about girls changing their shirts, so now it carries over to basketball. But, of course, the committee can't limit the penalty to girls only, so they applied to boys as well. Any other thoughts, enlightenments, bright ideas?

[cmathews]

I think the Fed is going a little overboard to make sure it gets called. If they make it as explicit as they have, then you have no choice or judgement. If they don't make it this explicit, it will boil down to: "well I don't think he/she was showing me up, they were frustrated with themselves etc so on and so forth" By making the changing a bloody shirt also a T they have damned sure removed the judgement of showing us up or not...It appears they are willing to trade a few bad "T's" to make sure they get the ones they want called.....

[blindzebra]

Originally posted by johnny1784

I do not think you would call a "T" just because of blood on a jersey and it needs to be changed. A "T" is used when a player deliberately removes his/her jersey while on the court, such as showing you up with acts of unsporting behavior or showing off his/her undies/boxers for the crowd. It is a judgment call based on the rules and pre-game conference with your partner. The solution when a player has blood on jersey or needs to change, would direct the player to change in a dressing room or away from the view of others, right?


Contact your association. Each has their own guidelines, just like some states allow a mercy rule with conditions while others have not adopted the mercy rule.

You said earlier,"I agree with yours and JRutledge replies. I just do not understand why so many basketball official's can not comprehend the NFHS rule book and why do so many of us try to re-write or interpret the rules to their own thought process."

So which is it?

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally posted by johnny1784

D. Coaching box:

What is the coaching box actually defined as? [/B][/QUOTE]NFHS rule 1-13 lays it out. [/B][/QUOTE]

I should have waited for a much shorter and wiser response.

[/B][/QUOTE]For a shorter response, you shoulda waited for Chuck.

Wiser? Naw.....from my own experience, I just think that you learn more by looking something up and reading it rather than having someone just supply you with the answer. Works for me anyway.

[rainmaker]

Originally posted by M&M Guy
I've been wondering why the committee would impose such a restriction, even penalizing uniform replacements. I can see the taunting or disrespect issues of pulling off the shirt, but why penalize a simple changing of the shirt? Since I've been enlightened by a few volleyball people about their shirt issues, I just wonder if it somehow has to do with equality. People (fans?) complained about girls changing their shirts, so now it carries over to basketball. But, of course, the committee can't limit the penalty to girls only, so they applied to boys as well. Any other thoughts, enlightenments, bright ideas?

Someone pointed out to me that if it's only for disrespect, then we have to try to read intent. It might be obvious sometimes, but may not always be. A player could pretend it was just for blood in order to get away with disrespect, and a player could really be changing for blood, but have a sour look on their face. Personally, I think these are less problematic for a good ref to handle than trying to require that the player step away from the visual confines of the playing area. For me it's going to be good enough to step to the side of the bleachers and turn their back, or have someone stand behind them. But I'm waiting to hear what my assignor says. That's my motto in any gray area of the rules: What Would Howard Do? Hey, I like that... maybe I'll make tiny decals that I could stick onto the sides of my whistles, WWHD....

[johnny1784]

Originally posted by blindzebra

You said earlier,"I agree with yours and JRutledge replies. I just do not understand why so many basketball official's can not comprehend the NFHS rule book and why do so many of us try to re-write or interpret the rules to their own thought process."

So which is it?

NFHS rule 1-1.

[johnny1784]

Originally posted by rainmaker

It appears as though the T for removing the jersey is not optional. THe wording is quite clear in the comments. The wording of the coaching box and the mercy rule both state clearly that they are optional. So I don't think you can compare.

I'm not saying I agree with this interp. I think it's assinine to make a player walk clear to the locker room to change a bloody jersey. But if they say we have to, then we have to. Intent isn't mentioned except to say that it doesn't matter.

You are correct that it isn't an option when undressing within the confines of the playing area, as per NFHS rule 10-3-7h. And you probably thought it was asinine to give a T for leaving the court for unauthorized reasons (now it is a violation).

By removing the player from the game with the bloody shirt and asking that player to change in the dressing room, wouldn’t it serve a dignity purpose to all in attendance? You could ignore the new rule and allow any player to undress wherever.

Why do other official's apply an option with Rule 10-2 or Rule 10-3-3 for issuing a "T"? Matter of fact, why do many officials have options on violations, and fouls?

Maybe the answer is advantage/disadvantage, game management or even the term; holds your whistle, see through the entire play.




[Edited by johnny1784 on May 18th, 2005 at 03:10 AM]

[johnny1784]

Originally posted by M&M Guy

As already discussed, it's not an option, it's the new rule; the jersey cannot be removed anywhere around the court. Also remember, it's not our job to tell them to change it, or how to change it, or where to change it, it's just our job to tell them they cannot play with a bloody jersey. It's up to the coach to decide if they want that player back into the game, and how to do it if they do.

I've been wondering why the committee would impose such a restriction, even penalizing uniform replacements. I can see the taunting or disrespect issues of pulling off the shirt, but why penalize a simple changing of the shirt? Since I've been enlightened by a few volleyball people about their shirt issues, I just wonder if it somehow has to do with equality. People (fans?) complained about girls changing their shirts, so now it carries over to basketball. But, of course, the committee can't limit the penalty to girls only, so they applied to boys as well. Any other thoughts, enlightenments, bright ideas?

Only applies within the confines of the playing area, NFHS rule 10-3-7h.

[blindzebra]

Originally posted by johnny1784

NFHS rule 1-1.

You must have a different rule book, 1-1 is court dimensions in my rule book.