Alright -- how's it going? This is my first time posting and I came across a rather weird issue today which I have not come across in my 6 years of officiating.

Adult league championship game -- 30 seconds left team A up by 2 and shooting 2 free throws -- team A occupies the second spot and Team B big man goes to match up with Team A big man -- Team A big man then goes to move across the lane and team b big man follows him so he can box him out -- Now mind you I still have the ball -- once team b big man positions himself team A big man starts to go back across to the other side -- its like free throw musical chairs -- i ask him the next spot he goes to he better stay there -- team b big man now stays across from him as i administer free throw #1 -- shooter misses first shot. team B big man now goes to line up next to Team A big man -- Team A big man begins to play same game and I ask him to stay at his next spot -- he then turns around because team b big man was following him -- I "T" him up (team A big man) since I had asked him 3 times by now to pick a spot and stay there. I clear the lane and his player now misses the second shot.

On the way down hes complaining that I cost them the game -- to which I reply "No you cost your team the game" -- I cannot find in the rule book who gets to designate the spots -- offense or defense -- so that this can be prevented.

Normal high School rules apply here. Now I "T'd" him up because a delay of game was not needed -- i had asked him 3 times and he kept pushing the limit -- In my opinion a delay of game warning would have been unfair to team b as they were just trying to get the best matchup and he was being disruptive to the game.

Hope this makes sense -- cuz it got me...

I think that you handled it well.
No warning for delay is applicable here because he is not doing any of the three things listed in 4-46.
RULE 4 - SECTION 46 WARNING FOR DELAY
A warning to a team for delay is an administrative procedure by an official which is recorded in the scorebook by the scorer and reported to the coach:
ART. 1 . . . For throw-in plane violations, as in 9-2-11.
ART. 2 . . . For huddle by either team and contact with the free thrower, as in 10-1-5c.
ART. 3 . . . For interfering with the ball following a goal as in 10-1-5d.


Calling a T is certainly appropriate. If you are ready to administer the FT and the player is preventing that, then he is delaying the game according to 10-3-6a.

RULE 10 - SECTION 3 PLAYER TECHNICAL

ART. 6 . . . Delay the game by acts such as:
a. Preventing the ball from being made live promptly or from being put in play.

Now there is one other way that you could handle this without issuing a T. Get everyone else set for the FT and when he is crossing the lane simply administer the ball to his teammate who is shooting. Do this quickly enough so that he is still in the lane when the FT shooter catches the ball, then blow the whistle and call a lane violation against him. His teammate loses a FT attempt. That should put a stop to his antics.

my opinion
 

I think this would be an interesting question to be addressed in the case book. A4 shooting and B1 following A1 along the lane. I have not found anything specific in the rule book.

If it were my game I would make team B occupy their spots first then allow team A get their spots. Two reasons for that: B must occupy the two lower spots and I would make them fill that requirement first. Everything else is optional. B also has the advantage of having up to four players along the lane while A can only have up to two. A is already at a disadvantage, why further penalize them by giving B the option of advantageous matchups? But I also realize that the 4 to 2 rule was instated to insure the defense had a clear advantage for free throw rebounding. To me, forcing line advantageous match ups for B is taking it too far. I realize there is no rule base for imposing my opinion in this situation other than the referee ruling on an aspect not specifically covered in the rules.

I would have imposed this ruling before handing out a "T" to anyone. Tell the players that their line up is final (which you did), but then you allowed B to move but did not allow A?. In a way I feel that letting B get the final advantage let the situation get out of hand. But at the same time the players did not listen to specific instruction from the referee, so you were not left with much of a choice at that point.

I've never had this stitch happen but often wondered how I would handle. With HS kids, it would probably be easier then in a men's league where they KNOW IT ALL.

I'd probably tell the D to get set and then tell the O players to get set and give the ball to the thrower. Coulda been easy on you if someone else on D woulda stepped up and said....I got him, just stay there.

I like the way you handled this. You allowed the players a reasonable amount of time to get set up in what they felt were the most advantageous positions. You let the players decide what those positions were. The constant tension between the offense looking for the advantage and the defence trying to neutralize that advantage is a natural part of the game. You drew your line in the sand, clearly. When one of the players crossed that line, you took care of it. What's not to like?

I'm in two minds about lane violation suggestion. I really like that the penalty is less severe. I think it would also send a pretty clear message, thus solving the problem. But it feels kind of "sneaky," like trying to ambush a player. I'd also be concerned about accidentally hitting the player with the ball while he's in the lane.

If you ever played the game then I'm sure you could "thread the needle". :-)

You could go with double T's here, since they're both part of the problem. With the double T, you don't give either team FTs, and (starting this year), you just pick up at the POI. So you haven't really done anything except told them that if they do it again, they're gone.

Because I can not find any rules that explicitly address this issue, I try to find a answer from the principles of basketball games.

IMHO, basically this case is about whether a player is allowed to choose his defender and whether a player is allowed to choose a player to guard.

So I think while a player is allowed to pick someone for him to guard, the one who is guarded does not get to choose who is guarding him.

Do you think this thought make sense?

Thanks.

I understand it, if that's what you mean. But as you point out yourself, there's no rules justification for it. It's just arbitrary. The defense gets to choose, the offense doesn't. Fine, if that's the rule, but without a rule to back it up, I don't see how I can arbitrarily impose that on players.

This just another example that adult league is full of jacka$$ players looking to manipulate officials and fellow participants. These are the guys who start 6' and under, or 40 yrs and over leagues because they cannot compete or they were cut from their HS team and think they were just disliked by the coach, when they were just a bunch of pain in the necks without any skillz.

I know there will be those who disagree, but since you have 6 years of experience under your belt, you should just not put up with the juvenile behavior of these "adult" league players. Doing things like that is also a sign of disrespect to the officials.

I would also suggest one other alternative to the T. Give the ball to the shooter, while the player is moving back and forth, then call a lane violation. Afterall you told him to find a spot on more than one occassion. Rather than the T, the FT attempt would be waived off and his teammates would have gotten on him rather than thinking you cost them the game. In other words, put the ball in play.

my .02$ worth

deecee,
After crossing over the 2nd time for the gamesmanship delay, I would ask them to "Please, Stop. Hold your spots."

Stepping <U>into</U> the lane, to a foot in front of the basket, would emphasize your point.
mick

Finally, someone acknowledges that. What a vindication! :)

thanks
 

My view on free throw line matchups is the same as regular defensive matchups - the offense does not get to choose who guards them so why should I change that here.

I dont think a double T is necessesary here for a few reasons -- One Team B is just trying to get in the best possible position to box out the talles player on the court by a long shot. -- Two there is no need to penalize Team B as they are not the ones initiating the musical chair game. -- Three I had asked the offensive player to chose a spot and stick with it.

If this was a high school game I would have approached it the same way -- Heres why I would not bounce the ball and issue a lane violation.

Both teams violated (team A did not fake team B in) so essentially there is no real advantage as both the offense and the defense were disconcerting to the shooter. And also as officials we should not be bouncing the ball to the shooter while players are adjusting themselves on the lanes. In high school if a coach or captain does not step in and tell his player to hold his spot that's their problem -- I ask once, twice then ring up the player that is the cause of this.

Yeah, but it's just one more thing to worry about. Murphy's law seems to apply with greater force with each passing year :D

QUOTE]Originally posted by deecee
....
If this was a high school game I would have approached it the same way -- Heres why I would not bounce the ball and issue a lane violation.

Both teams violated (team A did not fake team B in) so essentially there is no real advantage as both the offense and the defense were disconcerting to the shooter. And also as officials we should not be bouncing the ball to the shooter while players are adjusting themselves on the lanes. In high school if a coach or captain does not step in and tell his player to hold his spot that's their problem -- I ask once, twice then ring up the player that is the cause of this. [/QUOTE]

Part of our job is to perform preventative officiating activities and game management. Your ringing up will only get your assignors phone ringing and thus your phone ringing. If this is the way you choose to work, enjoy the many years of rec ball that will be headed your way. I realize this seems harsh but if you are going to T people up because you cannot gain control of your game by any other method, please don't bring the trainwreck that is your officiating career to my games.

Use some common sense!

It's our job to make sure the game goes fair -- if i ask a player several times to do something and he doesnt and I dont do anything about it then I have NO control of the game -- if a coach or captain doesnt step in to fix the situation then I HAVE to.

If a coach or AD calls my assignor for this after I gave his player ample opportunity to fix the situation I am not in the wrong. Coaches and players need to learn that there is a line between playing basketball and being a jackass -- 1 of those I do not tolerate.

And also how was I not being "preventative" I offered Team A player the option to chose a spot 3 times -- It's not my fault that he doesn't understand english or chose to push the limits. To many officials "ask" players and coaches to many times to do something -- if i ask a player to stop hand checking once maybe twice and he doesn't adjust hes going to get called for a foul. If i ask a coach to move on after a close call and he keeps on it i offer him one last chance to let it go -- then i help him let it go.

short of my doing a dance to get this player to stay in a spot on the free throw lane -- he was up for a T. And it didn't hurt that half his team came up to me after the game to say it was a good T and he was being a jackass.

So far in my six years (4 for high school) i have only given out maybe 5or6 t's in a high school game. Usually for coaches who wont let some subjects die, players who think it necessary to curse at themselves when the mess up so loud that the whole gym hears it and players that just cross the boundary with other players. Unlike some officials I have worked with i have my line in the sand and teams and coaches know where it is -- Im not afraid to penalize someone for crossing it.

Part of our job is to perform preventative officiating activities and game management. Your ringing up will only get your assignors phone ringing and thus your phone ringing. If this is the way you choose to work, enjoy the many years of rec ball that will be headed your way. I realize this seems harsh but if you are going to T people up because you cannot gain control of your game by any other method, please don't bring the trainwreck that is your officiating career to my games.

Use some common sense! [/QUOTE]Fwiw, what you did is common sense imo, DeeCee. If preventive officiating breaks down and the players ignore you, you then have to have the balls to call a "T". I'm an assignor, and there's nothing the matter with the way you handled it imo. Personally, I have more of a problem with officials who don't really have the balls to call a "T" and then try to disguise that fact by using the ol' "preventive officiating" defense.

"It's our job to make sure the game goes fair -- if i ask a player several times to do something and he doesnt and I dont do anything about it then I have NO control of the game -- if a coach or captain doesnt step in to fix the situation then I HAVE to."

Our job is to administer the rules of the game, use common sense officiating (part of the college rule book). Fair? No. Being fair would require that for every team with a 6'10" athletic player, the other team should get one too, that a foul at one end is followed by another at the oppostite end so that its 'fair.' The officials control the game whether you believe it or not. We decide how the bigs will play, or what the guards can and cannot do. Coaches and players make adjustments based on your calls.

"If a coach or AD calls my assignor for this after I gave his player ample opportunity to fix the situation I am not in the wrong. Coaches and players need to learn that there is a line between playing basketball and being a jackass -- 1 of those I do not tolerate."

The reality of the matter is that the schools have input as to who works for them. In my neck of the woods, coaches can black ball officials, in areas where officials have to develop their own game schedules coaches will hire or fire you based on how they like the way you call a game and your game management skills. Look at some of the responsibilities that have been added to our duties, even this year. Example, that we have to deal with unruly fans through the site management. We have to further inforce bench decorum during timeouts. Look at the college game, those coaches have more power than almost every official because of the $$$$ that are on the line. In alot of cases the reason rules changes and POE are developed is because of specific concerns by coaches. I forget the game, but two years ago, a referee during the ACC tournament T'd up NC State for not coming out of timeout according to rule. He subsequently was sent home from the tournament.

"And also how was I not being "preventative" I offered Team A player the option to chose a spot 3 times -- It's not my fault that he doesn't understand english or chose to push the limits. To many officials "ask" players and coaches to many times to do something -- if i ask a player to stop hand checking once maybe twice and he doesn't adjust hes going to get called for a foul. If i ask a coach to move on after a close call and he keeps on it i offer him one last chance to let it go -- then i help him let it go.

short of my doing a dance to get this player to stay in a spot on the free throw lane -- he was up for a T. And it didn't hurt that half his team came up to me after the game to say it was a good T and he was being a jackass."

If it takes you 3 times on the first shot and then proceeds this routine prior to the second, then the players already don't respect you and you have lost control (of this moment). Players and coaches don't want referees to decide the outcome of games on T's that are less than obvious.

"So far in my six years (4 for high school) i have only given out maybe 5or6 t's in a high school game. Usually for coaches who wont let some subjects die, players who think it necessary to curse at themselves when the mess up so loud that the whole gym hears it and players that just cross the boundary with other players. Unlike some officials I have worked with i have my line in the sand and teams and coaches know where it is -- Im not afraid to penalize someone for crossing it."

If a player moving back and forth from lane line to lane line is your 'line in the sand' thats fine, but don't expect to be commended or rewarded for it. State tournament games are not handed out for this type of line in the sand mentality. There are plenty of other ways to deal with a player you are having difficulty reaching. In the context of your situation,the T was an abuse of power.

id love to see how you handled it
 

i can guess if i were working with you we'd still be at the game as these two players kept switching sides...

Fwiw, what you did is common sense imo, DeeCee. If preventive officiating breaks down and the players ignore you, you then have to have the balls to call a "T". I'm an assignor, and there's nothing the matter with the way you handled it imo. Personally, I have more of a problem with officials who don't really have the balls to call a "T" and then try to disguise that fact by using the ol' "preventive officiating" defense. [/QUOTE]

Mr Jurrassic,

During my time on this forum, I have in general sided with you. I will just ask you this, if this is the state championship game and you have assigned this game, would you want this call made in a two point game with time running out? If your answer is in the affirmative then I would like to know how you could possibly support the official that made this call. How can you answer to the newspaper reporter, the coaches, the fans of this game? Are you really going to say it was the right call at the right time and that it improved the game?

It's not about balls to make this call, it about how to prevent the situation from coming to this point since there was no apparent lead up to this. A great game literally went down the tubes.

This situation could/should have been handled differently.

Re: id love to see how you handled it
 

NO! Because I would have taken care of it much sooner.

you still are just blowing air
 

HOW would you have handled it earlier??????????

It's easy to say "Oh i would have handled it earlier -- and done it correctly"

well please explain...

I have already explained it, as have others here.

I am not saying my way is the best way, I just don't believe a T at this time did anything to improve the game.

Tell a teammate/coach/captain to get him to stop, they might have replaced him on the lane. Tell the player "don't cost your team in this situation." We'll never know, but I would think there is a better alternative in this situation.

interesting
 

so after i ask this player 3 times and he doesn't listen -- i have to walk to a coach or captain and now ask them -- how does this make the crew look to the other team (a) and fans (b) -- i think you lost all credibility when you ask a player and he doesn't listen and then you go and hunt down the captain/coach and ask him -- if the coach or captain cannot see that you are trying to talk to a player who is not listing and they dont step in then the T to the player could vey well be handed to the coach/captain for not doing their job as well.

and in a situation like that -- The ref did not decide the outcome of the game, the player did. Just because its a close game and an important one doesn't mean the player/coach can start acting like know it all jackasses. If you T him up is sucks for his team -- well if you don't T him up then it sucks for the other team who didn't do anything wrong.

I really think it absurd to ask the coach/captain for help here after I have asked this kid/adult -- there are consequences for actions and they know when they are pushing the limit, they always know when they get "T'd" up that it was coming. Don't make this a bigger deal than it would be in a game by running around and asking coach/captain/kids parents for help in controling him -- after all we are the authority on the court act as such.

Re: interesting
 

deecee,
And that <U>3 times</U> is the problem that I see.
One time should have been plenty.
Make them believe the first time. Let them get to know and to believe you "right now".
mick

What exactly is your better alternative then precisely?

You don't have any rules backing to make either of those playes actually be replaced on the lane. Please tell me that you really aren't gonna stop the game and go over and ask a coach or a captain to handle something that is <b>your</b> responsibility from the git-go. <i>"Please, Coach, make him stop doing that"</i> Lah me. What are you gonna do if the teammates/coaches/captains ignore your pleas, like the 2 players that keep switching positions?

To be quite honest,I can't think of another way to handle this other than what DeeCee did. If the players are blatantly ignoring your explicit instructions- especially twice, then it's on them- not you. I'm all for preventive officiating, but I really need help on this one as to what else you do when your preventive officiating fails. What other alternative do you have except a "T"?

That "T" is preventive officiating imo. It should make those clowns think about challenging you or ignoring you in the future.

[Edited by Jurassic Referee on May 11th, 2005 at 03:37 PM]

The double T. No shots, no change of possession. But you screw around one more time, you're gone. Now let's play ball.

Re: interesting
 

I am not saying go hunt down the coach, just merely presenting alternatives which I thought you wanted to hear. I am sure there are others that were not even presented, but there were other alternatives that could have been employed.

It is obvious you don't really want an opinion but rather support for your call. I think I made it clear that I do not support this call. Feel free to make this call at a camp where you are trying to get picked up. I guarantee that you won't hear many positives about the call. I doubt the assignor is going to say "now that's the kind of calls I want my staff to make." I doubt anyone else here will deny that.

If it will help you sleep, then I say "Great Call that was one we had to get or we were going to loose control of this game."

[Edited by icallfouls on May 11th, 2005 at 03:47 PM]

Chuck, that woulda been my call exactly. Both players were doing it. Both players shoulda been penalized equally. I also shoulda explained my position a l'il bit better or clearer. Thanks.

i see the double t as a possible reason
 

but why should i T up the defense when its the offensive player that initiated this and its him that i asked to pick a spot and stay there and then have the defense match up accordingly.

all the defense wanted to do was match up their bigman with the offensives bigman -- if you could explain why you would give a double t in this case i would appreciate it as i do hate to be the deciding factor in a game (in this case they ended up winning so the T didnt decide the game).

Agreeing here, JR and Chuck.
<B><font color = green>Equally</font></B> is right!
But first, I'd tell 'em <U>both</U>, in the lane. :)
mick

I don't see how this double T is warranted. Player A started all this non-sense and when the officials didn't address it right away, Player B only did what was being allowed. Now that player is being penalized (could be his 5th or 2nd T) without even a warning to hold his spot.

Here's a solution....don't work men's leagues.

If you must, then I'd go with the double T for delaying the game and we'd play. If 3 times of telling isn't enough, sooner or later you gotta drop it on them. If they were both delaying the game, then they both deserve T's. How many times do you tell your kids to stop jumping on the couch before punishing? Tell them once, make em believe you, if they continue you discipline. If the kids are smart enough to figure this out then so should the men. Well...ummm....at least they should....you get the point.

Player A may have started it, but they both delayed the game. Whack 'em both. That sends the necessary message with the least disruption to the game.

Come on Chuck! There is no way you are going to call that in a college game, and you know it. Be honest.

I would love to be there to hear your explanation. "Mr. Assignor, I couldn't get them to hold their spots on the lane for a FT so I whacked them." Can you honestly say that your assignor is going to say "I am glad you were there to take care of it."

In a college or high school game, the player's will listen to you. This is typical rec boolsh*t.

What's your alternative then when the players don't heed your warnings? AFAIK you still haven't told us.

If it came to that it would be more like "Mr. Assignor, they were out of control and f'ing up my game so I whacked them."

Of course this is something you would only see in a men's rec league, but you knew that already.

Jurassic,
I did present a couple of ideas that I thought would be better in the situation. Get the lane violation. Another would be issue a delay of game (since they are using NFHS rules) as per the rules. As I have said, there are some that I may not have even thought of, but to T the player up for this? Believe me, the players would police the guy before having to give out a T.

My understanding of the event was that these options were not even considered, leaving me the impression that since the crew lost control of such a minor situation, they went out and made a call that could have been avoided. The crew used a big stick when all that was needed was a firm hand.

Since it is generally acceptable to issue the warning first before a T or double T in this case, I wonder to which player the warning should be given?

If the warnings should be given to both players, then at what moment should they be asked to stay in their spots? at the moment when they are walking toward the same side or when they are at the different sides?

Please note that, if the warnings are for both players, the timing of the warnings actually mandate the postions they are going to stay to avoid the Ts.

Thanks.

Jurassic,
I did present a couple of ideas that I thought would be better in the situation. Get the lane violation. Another would be issue a delay of game (since they are using NFHS rules) as per the rules.
[/B][/QUOTE]What NFDHS rule(s) are you gonna use to either(a)call a lane violation or(b)a delay of game warning?

I'm not aware of any rule(s) that are applicable and could possibly be used.

What NFDHS rule(s) are you gonna use to either(a)call a lane violation or(b)a delay of game warning?

I'm not aware of any rule(s) that are applicable and could possibly be used. [/B][/QUOTE]

Bounce the ball to the shooter while Player A is moving, call lane violation.

Preventing the ball from becoming live promptly.

[Edited by icallfouls on May 11th, 2005 at 06:29 PM]

Bounce the ball to the shooter while Player A is moving, call lane violation. [/B][/QUOTE]Do you honestly think that you're gonna avoid confrontation by trying something like that? Any half-a$$ed knowledgable coach is gonna be all over you for not letting his players get set. And know what? I don't have a clue what you could possibly say in your defense when they do get on you.

What do you do if one player happens to get in his spot before the FT shooter gets the ball, and their opponent is still in the lane? You can then call one violation only, by rule. How fair is that?

Can't agree at all with that tactic. It's wrong imo. It's goes completely against the mechanics that we're supposed to use on FT's.

ok so lets end this
 

basically what i wanted to know was who gets to chose who matches up with who -- lets say A1 wants to match up with B1 in a game and B1 tries to move across and doesn't want to match up with A1 -- I just want to know now is it ok to just tell the players that the defense gets to chose the matchup in the lanes? Since thats how regular matchups occur -- the defense picks who they guard.

There is no warning in FED rules for this situation, unless you consider walking through the lane to be "huddling".

Do you honestly think that you're gonna avoid confrontation by trying something like that? Any half-a$$ed knowledgable coach is gonna be all over you for not letting his players get set. And know what? I don't have a clue what you could possibly say in your defense when they do get on you.

What do you do if one player happens to get in his spot before the FT shooter gets the ball, and their opponent is still in the lane? You can then call one violation only, by rule. How fair is that?

Can't agree at all with that tactic. It's wrong imo. It's goes completely against the mechanics that we're supposed to use on FT's. [/B][/QUOTE]

Fine, don't agree. But don't try to sell to people here that you would T in this situation and expect that to be the better solution that any coach will understand when no other solutions were attempted. You know what kind of reputation an official will get for this type of call.

As far as I can see, this topic has run its course.



[Edited by icallfouls on May 11th, 2005 at 06:51 PM]

As others have said, I doubt it would come to that in a college game. But if it did, I don't see what could be wrong with handling it with a double T. Both players were delaying. Neither would listen to my instructions. Why shouldn't I whack 'em? If a coach is on the floor and I tell him 3 times that he needs to find his box, but he doesn't. . . whack! I don't see how this is different.

And as I said earlier, you send exactly the message that you want (Knock it off now, or you're done!) without disrupting the game (no FTs, no change of possession). As far as I can tell, it's a win-win solution. What am I missing? :confused:

If I tell him it was necessary, then yes, I believe that he would say "Way to keep the game moving."

i guess i have more to say
 

Chuck,
Beleive me, I can see where everyone is coming from on this, but for this situation when there were no apparent other game management techniques used, the punishment does not fit the crime. Heck yes, send a message, but don't send the wrong message either, that the crew expended all reasonable options before the T, not in this case. Suppose it is on tape. At least with a coach who is on the floor, it is easy to tell that you are trying to get them back to the box.

Now, when the second player started to move and without receiving any warning to have a double T called. The officials, imo, would be out of line.

I am sure that there are many of us out there that have seen two players get tangled up, or tied up on a jump ball and we could see things flaring up, but rather than T them, we used a different game management technique. I know I have, especially when the situation wasn't going to lead to something more. The transgression in these situations warrants a T more than Player A who won't hold his spot because the crew didn't take charge.

My only suggestion on this has been to use more game management skills and common sense before issuing a T here. I can honestly say that this would not happen in my game, at any level and I would not have to give a T to make my point.

[Edited by icallfouls on May 11th, 2005 at 07:18 PM]

i still dont see how we didnt take charge
 

short of me jumping on his back and riding him like a bronco -- and im 6'6" 230 -- to his spot on the lane i only say pretty please once -- i dont like players trying to walk over me and ill put them in line in a mens/high school/rec/college game if i think they are trying to walk over me.

you still havent explained how we didnt take charge and your solutions so far i find absurd -- a) bounce the ball and then just whistle a violation (which is not proper mechanics and bad officiating anyways) and b) to ask the coach and captain (its not my job to ask for help if i ask the player -- or tell the player what to do).

i just want to know who gets to chose matchup -- offense or defense in the lanes. In 6 years this is my first time coming across this and i went through the rules/case book and didnt find anything addressing this. As far as how i handled it -- i dont doubt the validity of how i handled it since it was one player that i was adressing and only one player that was initiating this. Please dont make this a philosophical discussion anymore i just would like to know defense or offense.

Re: i still dont see how we didnt take charge
 

I have explained how I think you could have better managed this or handled it before a T was needed. I would have told the guy not to cost his team right now. He can infer whatever he wants from the statement. Issue a delay of game warning for not allowing the ball to be put into play. T's are generally the last technique to employ, I just don't see how the T in this game was the last/best resort.

If you have retrieved the ball after the first throw and you let him go back and forth 3 times after having told him to hold his spot, just make the ball available to the shooter. Once you said to hold your spots this indicates that the ball is going to be put in play. His further movement becomes a violation.

AS FAR AS WHO CHOOSES. In general, the defense usually makes the choice. Example: When I played, I used to be the defensive/rebounding specialist, I got the leading scorer. I went where he went. If we were shooting FT's then their best/tallst rebounder would find me. If they were shooting, I would find my guy, unless he was shooting or out of the game, then I would look for their next best player.

1) None of Icallfouls' solutions are backed up either by rule(s) or approved mechanic(s).

2) <b>No one</b> gets to choose match-ups when lining up for FT's. The defense <b>must</b> fill the bottom 2 slots. Period. Rules reference is R8-1-4(b). The shooting team has the option of 1,2 or no players filling the next slots up. Period. Rules reference is R-8-1-4(c). If someone wants to "match up", they have to do it without delaying the game. Whether they actually do delay the game or not is a judgement call by the administering official. If he feels that a player(s) is delaying the game, it's a "T". Rules reference is R10-3-6(a). There are no other applicable rules, AFAIK.

Quit worrying. You done good imo.

Issue a delay of game warning for not allowing the ball to be put into play.


[/B][/QUOTE]There is <b>NO</b> rule that will allow you to issue a delay-of-game warning in this situation. Iow, very bad advice.

Re: i guess i have more to say
 

Jim --

I'm not sure you see the picture clearly of the sitch. It appears to me as though

player A stepped across the lane
player B stepped across the lane
then player A stepped back again
player B stepped back again
here, I suspect, ref said, "Hey, guys, enough."
but they both stepped across again
ref then says, "Next spot is it."
player A then stepped across again
Now ref bounces ball, and shooter misses.
then they start stepping back and forth again!

It appears to me that this all happened in one free throw, not over several free throw sets over several minutes.

At what point would you have issued a warning? When would you stop the free throw sequence to track down the captain? Would it make the game better to stop everything and ask the coach to talk to his player? Which coach? When all this action happens so quickly one thing on top of the other, does it make sense to stop everything to get the coach involved? Or were you thinking they had done this several times during several free throw sets? How is the ref forfeiting control to tell the players to stop it and then issuing a T when they don't stop? It seems to me that it's taking control, not giving it up. I don't understand your point of view.

Re: Re: i guess i have more to say
 

deecee - <I>"Adult league championship game -- 30 seconds left team A up by 2 and shooting 2 free throws -- team A occupies the second spot and Team B big man goes to match up with Team A big man -- Team A big man then goes to move across the lane and team b big man follows him so he can box him out -- Now mind you I still have the ball -- once team b big man positions himself <B><Font color = red>team A big man starts to go back across to the other side -- its like free throw musical chairs -- i ask him the next spot he goes to he better stay there</Font></B> -- team b big man now stays across from him as i administer free throw #1 -- shooter misses first shot. team B big man now goes to line up next to Team A big man -- <B><Font color = red>Team A big man begins to play same game and I ask him to stay at his next spot</Font></B> -- he then turns around because team b big man was following him -- <B><Font color = red>I "T" him up (team A big man) since I had asked him 3 times by now to pick a spot and stay there</Font></B>. I clear the lane and his player now misses the second shot."</I>

Jewel,
Looks to me like the focus was on one player.
Team B was not addressed.
Wasn't equal attention.

mick

Re: i still dont see how we didnt take charge
 

The referee gets to choose. I always (the two or so times this has happened) put the defense in first.

Re: Re: i still dont see how we didnt take charge
 

Finally someone who agrees with me. Defense has to occupy the two lower spots. Put them in first, make them stay. Then add offense if they want their slots, then add defense. It is not hard. Does the rules cover this specifically? no, but logic allows us to use this reasoning.

I believe the double T is the best solution under this circumstance. Thanks for sharing your insights.

But I still have some questions:

1.What if this happens early in the game when the T does not decide the outcome of the game? is double T still the preferred solution?

2.the rules require the defense fill the bottom 2 slots, and give the shooting team some options to choose. But is the order of the events implied here by the rules? i,e, the defense has to set first, then offense choose their spots? (at first glance, I think the order is implied. but when I read it again, I am not really sure now.)

If the order is implied by the rules, then should the defense side be given the warning first?

Thanks.

There is <b>NO</b> rule that will allow you to issue a delay-of-game warning in this situation. Iow, very bad advice. [/B][/QUOTE]

Jurassic,

If you are saying that a T is the correct call here, I disagree. I have tried to suggest other ways to address this matter. I presented to you the identical situation in a state championship final and another example at the college level where an official T'd up a team for violation of time out readiness. You have said that you are an assignor. You know, referees get reprimanded, suspended, and fired for such things and for you to suggest otherwise is irresponsible to the future career of such an official. You may not like my ideas, and I did not say it was the best, just an alternative and that something like this would never happen in my game because it wouldn't have gotten so far as I would have managed it differently.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by icallfouls

Quote:

Originally posted by Jurassic Referee Quote: Originally posted by icallfouls Quote: Issue a delay of game warning for not allowing the ball to be put into play. There is <b>NO</b> rule that will allow you to issue a delay-of-game warning in this situation. Iow, very bad advice. Jurassic, If you are saying that a T is the correct call here, I disagree.

That's not what he's saying. He's saying what I said yesterday on page 3 of this thread, which is: There are only 3 delay warnings in FED rules.

• Interfering with a ball after a made basket;
• Breaking the throw-in plane by a defender; and
• Huddling in the lane before a FT.

So your possible solution of issuing a warning for delay in our scenario is not allowed by rule; unless, as I said yesterday, you consider walking through the lane to be "huddling".

You have said that you are an assignor. You know, referees get reprimanded, suspended, and fired for such things and for you to suggest otherwise is irresponsible to the future career of such an official. You may not like my ideas, and I did not say it was the best, just an alternative and that something like this would never happen in my game because it wouldn't have gotten so far as I would have managed it differently.

[/B][/QUOTE]Where I assign, officials get reprimanded, suspended and fired for making up their own rules and not following the written ones that we have. The future career of any official that might wanna try to make up his rules instead of following the ones we got could be an awful short one. Jmo.

There is no rules justification or backing that I know of for the ideas you are proposing . If I received a written complaint about your actions(such as issuing a warning where the rules don't allow one), I really can't think of a valid response that I could make in your defense.

We disagree. No big deal.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by ChuckElias

Quote:

Originally posted by icallfouls Quote: Originally posted by Jurassic Referee Quote: Originally posted by icallfouls Quote: Issue a delay of game warning for not allowing the ball to be put into play. There is <b>NO</b> rule that will allow you to issue a delay-of-game warning in this situation. Iow, very bad advice. Jurassic, If you are saying that a T is the correct call here, I disagree. That's not what he's saying. He's saying what I said yesterday on page 3 of this thread, which is: There are only 3 delay warnings in FED rules. Interfering with a ball after a made basket; Breaking the throw-in plane by a defender; and Huddling in the lane before a FT. So your possible solution of issuing a warning for delay in our scenario is not allowed by rule; unless, as I said yesterday, you consider walking through the lane to be "huddling".

I agree with your reply.

I think too many times, a basketball official misuses his/her authority on implying the NFHS rules. We also tend to misunderstand the use of game management techniques.

Re: Re: i guess i have more to say
 

Rainmaker,

Read my example about the same play in the state championship final, are you going to make this call? You cannot convince me that this is the right call for any championship game. If there are two perpetrators, then why didn't both get whacked for this as others have suggested here? Team A was un"fair"ly penalized in this situation and the referees wound up having a direct impact on the game.

I believe that these officials were having a great game and this call was not the right call at the right time, or place.

Now, if this is my game. Player A moves to their spot of preference, but Player B follows. I say "hold your spots" and bounce the ball to the FT shooter and I back out. If A starts to move, A is violating. It doesn't seem too hard to take care of to me. Player A was being difficult, but had come to a set position as Player B was following. Once B got positioned, A decided to move again. Put the ball into play, be more efficient with dead ball situations is my suggestion to stop the insanity.

There are other tools we can use for this situation and these needed to be explored first.

I want to reference 8-1-4f. I would guess that in this game since it was close, that all lane spaces were filled. Thus moving to an occupied space is not possible in this situation. Further, if we examine Rule 8-1, you can call the violation or double violation. Player A's delaying tactic was not warned in this game. I liken this tactic to a huddle in the key which prevents FT administration (thus an official warning would be called first).

Also, reference NCAA manual 8-1-2, "After allowing reasonable time for players to take their positions, the official shall put the ball in play ..."

9-1-2f will also help to explain my position. Specifically, delay the free thrower.

This has been a great discussion, but no one here has convinced me that they would call a T or support this call in a championship game. If they would, I don't think that they are being honest.

[Edited by icallfouls on May 12th, 2005 at 12:17 PM]

Please, can someone at least tell me "I understand it"?

kinda
 

I don't really agree with the double t here as i had only adressed the offensive player since he was the one initiating this whole farse.

From a standpoint of not effecting the game I can see why we would go to a double T however that's not fair to the defense who i never explicitly asked to hold their spot -- I didn't feel as though what the defense was doing was wrong they were just matching up and the offense was the one tooling around.

Re: Re: Re: i guess i have more to say
 

Jim -- thanks that makes your position clearer. In the original situation, the T came after the first free throw. It sounds as though it wasn't so much for delaying as for deliberately disobeying the referee. I think if I were lead in this situation, I'd give The Look to players A and B as soon as the ball was shot. Then quickly get the ball back in play, as you suggest. However, if either of them moved before I had a chance to accomplish that, I'd say something short, and then if they moved again, I'd whack them. Yes, I think I'd do that even in a state tournament game. (This may not be something I'll evr have to worry about). I can't imagine Brad Smith letting his players get away with this kind of crap. I can't think of a state tournament coach that would. (Although the Jesuit girls' coach would yell at the refs when they called it, and then yell at the player later. She yells about everything!)

Ya know what's great about this thread?

After all these pages the only thing that icallfouls and deecee can agree on is that they both disagree with Chuck!

:D

Re: kinda
 

DC

If two players square off as if to fight, are you just going to T up one of them? I doubt you would. You and I T them both to let them know both were caught. If T'ing a player(s) is your solution then you are better served getting both.

I know that we have gone around and around on this, and I guess we will just have to say that we handle some things differently. But look back at these posts (60+ responses and many more reviews), I don't see alot of support for your T in this situation from more of the "senior" members, because they know that the call did not improve the game. A more aggressive approach to putting the ball back in play might have gone a long way to preventing the entire thing. The call in question is a rarity because we as officials generally won't let it get as far as it did. My only point has been to offer a different way to handle things regardless of who thinks its right or wrong. We as officials are allowed to make rulings on items not specifically covered in the rules. I think that was a take charge situation that could have been better handled.

As far as who gets to decide who guards who. Most situations on the lane have an offensive player that finds their spot, the defense will then adjust. Example, 6'5" stud for the offense takes the right lane line, the intial defender is 6'0" and average, coach is telling kids to switch up. Other defender is 6'4" or a better rebounder or whatever, then moves to better position themselves so that Team B have a better chance at the rebound.

Fine.
Call that in your state high school championship game and it will be your last high school championship game. Talk to the vets in your area and ask them if they make that call. The answer is no, better game management would have solved this.

Just cause they've posted a bunch of psychobabble on chuck's annual baseball thread doesn't mean they deserve more respect then the rest of us. "SENIOR MEMBER" don't mean squat other then it shows you got too much time on your hands.

[/B][/QUOTE]Ooooooooo.

Ol' BushRef has still got that burr under his butt.

Got a new name picked out yet for your next return? :D

Ooooooooo.

Ol' BushRef has still got that burr under his butt.

Got a new name picked out yet for your next return? :D [/B][/QUOTE]

I suggest Angry Little Boy.

btw...you posting psychobabble on Chuck's annual baseball thread again? I thought we got you to cut it out.

Re: Re: Re: kinda
 

Understand that neither player in my example was going to fight. Check your definition of a fight. It requires an attempt to hit, among other things. Watch some of the NCAA games where this happens. No one gets tossed, unless punches are thrown, for squaring off. Talk to anyone who has been there. Ask them, tell them about the free throw situation, and then tell them about this one. You've got to understand the game grasshopper.

Senior members, I was refering to the referees who actually know how to officiate under big time pressure, officials that have worked the state playoffs/championships, or college tournaments/playoffs, etc. We have some here.

Its time to golf. L8R

Hell, my middle name is pychobabble.

Woody Pyschobabble Jurassicref.

Btw, ol' BushRef is a Cubs' fan.

Kinda appropriate, dontya think?

You've got to understand the game grasshopper.

Senior members, I was refering to the referees who actually know how to officiate under big time pressure, officials that have worked the state playoffs/championships, or college tournaments/playoffs, etc. We have some here.

[/B][/QUOTE]I have seen the error of my ways. Let me apologize to all of the <b>big time</b> referees out there that support your stance. Gee, when I grow up, I can only hope and dream that I might possibly learn to be able to officiate under <b>big time</b> pressure too.

Yup, us l'il grasshoppers have got their <b>big time</b> hopes too.

I hereby defer to your brilliant officiating knowledge.

We are not worthy!
http://deephousepage.com/smilies/respect.gif

Gee, <s>when</s> if I grow up, I can only hope and dream that I might possibly learn to be able to officiate under <b>big time</b> pressure too.
[/B][/QUOTE]

Fixed it for ya.

Fixed it for ya. [/B][/QUOTE]

Is there any popcorn left or should I go make some more? :rolleyes:

Fixed it for ya. [/B][/QUOTE]Well.....I'm damn well doing my best <b>not</b> to!

I'm gonna live in Neverland.

Nope, not the one where I have to sleep with Mikey in lieu of paying rent. :eek: The other one.

Well.....I'm damn well doing my best <b>not</b> to!

I'm gonna live in Neverland.

Nope, not the one where I have to sleep with Mikey in lieu of paying rent. :eek: The other one. [/B][/QUOTE]

http://web.bvu.edu/students/hughbra/HomeAlone.JPG

LOL!!

Thanks, now I'm sleeping with the lights on tonight.

You must have a pretty good (if not ugly) imagination if you're seeing a little boy getting molested in that picture.

What do you see in here I wonder??

http://www.medical-library.org/journ...ach/sld002.gif

Did you pass or fail?

You do have a way with words, dont'ya, Bush?

Unbelievable.

Oh geez, please don't tell me that. The rest of us aren't feelin' too well these days as it is... :(

tmp44 - there's another batch in back - do you want plain or seasoned salt?

What keeps getting passed up in this argument is (gasp!) maybe both sides are right. There are calls that are made or passed on in a rec league game that are different in a HS championship game. Just like there are calls made or passed on in a 6th grade game that you will never encounter in...are you ready Dan?...the SEC. The correct call in this adult league game was the T. In the HS game the kids will be much better coached, so this will not occur. If it did, preventative measures will work in the HS game, but not as much in the rec game, so the calls are made accordingly.

Now, let's get on with it, my popcorn's gettin' cold.

:D

M&M, I don't care what they say about you, you're OK!

:D

Been away for a few days...too much work. :( Looks like I missed a good one!

My opinion...no T's. Definitely not on just one player.

I've got two possible solutions

1. When ref is ready to administer FT, there better be no players in the lane. I tell them to find a spot. If they had a time to get to a spot and are still in the lane when I'm ready to bounce, it's a delay of game warning.

2. Instead of a delay warning...tell them to find a spot.."I'm bouncing the ball to the shooter in 3 seconds. If you're in the lane when the ball gets to him, it'll be a violation." Bounce it on 3. Call the violation. They had the chance to find a spot.

Hate to have to repeat myself but:

1) There is <b>no</b> NFHS rule that will allow you to issue a delay of game warning. If you think differently, please cite the rule.
2) Doesn't the mechanics manual tell us that the L isn't supposed to administer the FT until all players along the lanes are set?

There's no rules justification for either suggestion of your's.

The spirit and intent of the delay of game warning it to get players out of the lane in order to administer the FT. The overwhelming instance of this is the "huddle".

Teams don't get a free timeout. They don't get an infinite amount of time to find a spot

There is no more of a justification or need to issue a T for entering the lane or for requiring that either team pick their spots first.

Whether you use the delay warning direclty or use 2-3 (since this situation is quite clearly NOT covered in the rules) it doesn't really matter. A T is overkill for this. Some action is necessary otherwise we'll be there for weeks.

10-1-5b. Delay the game by preventing the ball from being made promptly live or from being put in play.

This article goes on to mention the RPP, but that doesn't mean it applies only to the RPP. It clearly shows that it's a T to prevent the ball from becoming live.

Exactly. There is rules backing for the issuance of a "T". There is no rules backing for the issuance of a warning. Gotta use what we got, not what we wished we had.

How is that really relevant to this situation? You're talking about a mechanic versus a rule. Apples/oranges. If they ignore your whistle following the TO, that's when you start applying the appropriate rule.

Missing the obvious solution
 

Guys, I finally got around to going through this whole thread, and everybody is missing the obvious solution. How about just standing there, and watching the jack@$$e$ go back and forth, back and forth until everyone in the gym yelled at them to KNOCK IT OFF! I'd get a kick out of waiting to see how many times they'd go back and forth before they finally realized that they weren't accomplishing anything.

Well, see, just another example of using the rules, and mechanics, at your own discretion. Forget this letter of the law stuff. Let the players decide the game. The best ref is the one you never notice. Don't break the flow of the game (in this case back and forth across the lane) with an arbitrary whistle. I AGREE WITH ROB!!

They're not preventing it. That rule is for when a player grabs the ball after a made bucket and tosses it into the stands or to the other end of the floor or when a the ball is knocked OOB and then do something similar. It's not for being in the wrong location when the ref has the ball.

Camron -- your lysdexia is showing. You've got your b's and d's mixed up. Item "d" is for "interfering with the ball following a goal after the team warning for this delay". I quoted item "b" which says nothing at all about a made basket or a warning. Furthermore item "b" does refer to the RPP which implies to me that it in fact applies to any time players are doing something which keeps them from being ready for the ball to be made live.

No, Juulie, I don't have them mixed up.

Item "b", while saying nothing about after a made goal, doesn't place any restrictions on when it may or may not occur. It may very well occur after a made basket.

Interfering with the ball is tapping it aside a bit to slow down the other team...a delay of game item. Item b is when they knock/throw it into the stands or the other end of the court...a technical foul

No, Juulie, I don't have them mixed up.

Item "b", while saying nothing about after a made goal, doesn't place any restrictions on when it may or may not occur. It may very well occur after a made basket.
Item b is when they knock/throw it into the stands or the other end of the court or hang onto the ball and refuse to give it to the official...a technical foul

Interfering with the ball is tapping it aside a bit to slow down the other team...a delay of game item.

No restrictions, eh? Then why doesn't it apply to the sitch under discussion?

It could. I had said it was overkill...not wrong. I believe there are better less heavy handed was to get them to stop being silly. It's not really a T-worthy behavior.

Here I am standing with the ball, and the darn players keep waltzing back and forth in front of me. I finally caution them, they settle down, and I administer the first free throw. As soon as the ball hits the rim, they are at it again. Before the ball gets back to me, I give them the look, say, "Knock it off!" and then catch teh ball. Now they step across yet again. What do you suggest??

Tell them ball is coming in, hold your spots, and bounce it to the shooter.

The mechanics manual assumes the players are not doing anything goofy. Take control when they're being goofy but don't throw the book at them.