Van Gundy fined for comments about playoff officiating

[Goose]

to JRutledge:

>That is just crap. Shaq and Tim Duncan foul out a lot. These are two of the best big men in the >game and they foul out in big games and when the spotlight is the brightest.

Purely an assumption. IÂ’d like to see the stats. As I said, when they do foul out, it makes news all over the papers and this thread proves my point. When was the last time that Steve Nash fouling out made headlines?

As for bigmen or centers in general, how many times did Wilt foul out? None! DonÂ’t recall Kareem fouling out a lot either, and Duncan is not even in the same league as those two. Again, the issue remains that the NBA NEEDS their stars to stay in the game or there will be a collective 'click' heard throughout the land.

Now, does baseball survive without Barry Bonds who is arguably the best player in the game? Could the NBA survive without Shaq? That was the big question after Jordan left as to who would now carry the torch. This only appears in the NBA from what I can tell. Baseball will exist, and exist on a high level without Bonds, Pedro, Manny, Mantle, Ryan, Mays, Rose, etc. The NFL will florish without Peyton, or Brett. In fact, it just keeps getting better while the NBA continues its downward spiral. IMO it has sacrificed the game for the sake of entertaining the fans.

>Perimeter players like Michael Jordan or Allen Iverson are >not going to foul out. They do not block shots and they >are not the last line of defense in or around the basket.

But Jordan was regarded as the best defensive player at the time, or at least was on the all defensive team many years. I would suspect that anyone that was regarded as such a great defender would commit more fouls. As you have stated, it is the defenders that are/do commit more fouls. But I guess he just moved his feet better.

>Does it ever occur to people that stars do not foul or get >fouled because they make better decisions?

And it just could be, could be, that Jordan was pumping in millions of viewers in the same way Tiger Woods does for the PGA. What would the ratings have been if Jordan constantly got in foul trouble, or didnÂ’t play? The ratings dictate a lot and what makes anyone think that it doesnÂ’t play a part in the NBA.

To Chuck:

>John, Have you ever watched a USBL game? CBA? Whatever >that women's league was that competed with the WNBA? All >worse than the NBA. Even assuming that you meant the worst >officiated pro basketball league in the US, your statement >is still pretty clearly false.

Chuck,
I stand corrected. Basically you should have known that I was talking major pro leagues. Does the CBA even exist any more? I believe my point still stands from the 4 majors. The NBA is the worse. As with the other majors, you see the college ranks serving as the minor leagues so to speak for officials, and when they are good enough, they move up to MLB, NFL, or NHL. Don't know the stats, but it is rare from what I have seen where a great college official moves up to the NBA. If the NBA were on the same level as the others, you would see great college guys fighting to get in. Maybe it is happening, but I haven't seen it.

>Do you have even one shred of evidence to support that?

Are you serious? You can’t actually believe that the NBA hasn’t been billing itself as entertainment. Why even in their commercials, they label themselves as “FAN-tastic”.

>B/c I happen to know a few of these "inept" officials from >camp and I know a little bit of the scrutiny they undergo >before, during and after every single game. I'm not saying >that they're perfect -- b/c they're obviously not. What I >am saying is that they are not out there to turn their >heads away when somebody is about to get hit on the head >with a folding chair. And that's what you're saying they >do. Trust me, they don't.

Look, I never said that they were inept in that they did not know the game. There are other forces at play here and clearly they are in a position to do little about it, seeing that they are literally biting the hand that is feeding them. No one is saying they have to be perfect either and who said they turn a blind eye to flying chairs?

The game is what is at fault here, not the officials. From where I stand, their hands are tied. Given that though, and knowing how politics plays a part in everything we do including officiating, how much political rangling is going on? How much pull do you think a coach has in dictating who works his games? You and I know, that even at the HS level, the coaches call most of the shots, so why would it be any different in the NBA. Along with that, do you think a player such as Jordan would/could have influence on who might work his games? Personally, if he could have called Stern up and said, “Chuck is awesome, I wish he could work more of my games..” Do you think the league would have tried to move Chuck to more Bulls games? Conversely, if Jordan thought Chuck was a bum, and addressed the front office about Chuck, how long would Chuck have lasted?

>You and I both know that we hear this same thing in our HS >games. So do we give HS players preferential treatment? I >don't. Do you? I doubt it seriously. So why do you suppose >that the NBA refs do it?

I know you donÂ’t, but that does not mean others donÂ’t. Personally, this winter, I heard it mentioned that number x had 4 fouls on him, so letÂ’s make sure the 5th is a good one. So, if guys at the HS level try to insure that the last foul is a good one, what makes you think it is any different at the NBA where millions are riding on each game. Face it, I have never been under that type of pressure and from what I know, you havenÂ’t either. So, I donÂ’t know what I would do in a similar situation if working in the NBA. I might pass on a few suspect calls if it meant sending Shaq to the showers in 4th quarter of a playoff game. But that does not make it right, right? If it is a foul in quarter one, then it should be a foul in quarter four.

Then again, remember the plight of one Gregg Kite. Maybe I'm wrong but it appeared when this Celtic stepped on the floor, he was good for 2 or 3 quick ones, whereas Bird, or Mchale would do the same things and got a pass. You also must have missed the recent article that spoke of this very subject where most NBA players past and present said there was a 2 tier system. Surely growing up in NE listening the the Celtics, you had to hear the perferred treatment comments. This notion has been around a long time in the NBA and much more so than in the other major pro leagues.

>Not sure I agree with this. Most of the good NCAA programs >go about 9 guys deep on a regular basis, and have 3 or >4 "practice squad" guys who only see mop-up time. NBA >teams go 8 or maybe 9. Neither level uses all 12 guys (or >even 10) on a regular basis, I don't think.

Again, you canÂ’t really believe that the NBA and College benches are comparable can you? The NBA bench is rarely used for foul troubled players and mostly used to gain a rest. The college bench is used for that too, but in many more cases, a coach has to go to his bench because his star is saddled with foul trouble. Case in point is the NCAA tourney where most games deal with players in foul trouble where the coach is required to coach, unlike the NBA where given 6 fouls, a player is rarely in real foul troble.

>They question the refs anyway. They don't need to see >somebody foul out.

You missed my point. It had nothing to do with a call, but the fact that it was making NEWS that Shaq, Duncan, Lebron, etc. actually fouled out! ItÂ’s like, how could that happen?

>I can tell you that it's very real to the men and women in >the gray shirts. I don't think you have any real evidence >that the officials are simply there to stay out of the >way, like in the WWE.

Again, you are missing my point. The comparison to the WWF/WWE and is it real has to do with the marketing of the NBA. Can the NBA exist without its stars? I think not. Now, can baseball exist without its stars? I think AAA, AA, A, D, etc. level baseball answers that. The NBA has no such mass appeal. Can the NFL exist with out Peyton, Brett, etc.? Yes, and on a weekly basis. QBÂ’s etc. are always hurt and in many cases out for the year. Then in steps a QB like Big Ben in Pittsburgh and the interest never wanes. I just wonder how many would watch the NBA if the stars were absent? In other words, is it the game or the stars that make the game? IMO, the stars are the game in the NBA, not the game. Whereas in College, the game takes center stage over the players and still manages to captivate a nation.

>You can say they stink if you want, and we can debate the >accuracy of their calls. But when you say that the NBA >officials are the equivalent of WWE refs who intentionally >fail to enforce the rules or intentionally miss plays, >then you've gone over the line. JMHO.

Never said they stink/stunk. Again, you are missing the point. They are stuck between a rock and a hard place. On one hand, enforce the rules, and on the other, deal with a league that is trying to appeal to a mass audience.

Now, do I think the NBA refÂ’s could be better? Of course, just like I feel I could be better, but I never said that they stunk. And the reference to the WWF is not a comparison to the refÂ’s in the WWF, but the marketing of the WWF and the NBA. It had/has nothing to do with the officials.

And besides, everyone knows that the WWF is realÂ…


bruno samartino a.k.a the living legend