team control and and player controp foul humm

[tomegun]

BZ, I'm not trying to be funny, is there someplace in the book that says we are supposed to report a team control foul to the table?

This is one area where I'm wrong because I don't even use the signal with my hand behind my head. I just use my voice with a point for an offensive foul. I know it is wrong but I haven't got dinged for it yet by an evaluator.

It seems like many things trickle down from the NCAA so I don't think the NF will add another signal for TC.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally posted by tomegun
BZ, I'm not trying to be funny, is there someplace in the book that says we are supposed to report a team control foul to the table?

All fouls have to be reported to the table.

NFHS rule 2-9-1--"The official shall designate the offender to the scorer....".

[tomegun]

Originally posted by Jurassic Referee

All fouls have to be reported to the table.

NFHS rule 2-9-1--"The official shall designate the offender to the scorer....".

Hmmmm I never knew that!

I mean go to the table and say "black, 21 team control foul" instead of "black, 21, holding."

I will assume a smiley face on your post JR.

[ChuckElias]

Tommy's question is "Are we supposed to signal a TC foul at the table?" And I think the answer is yes. I think the NCAA didn't do a good job of laying down the exact mechanics when they introduced the TC foul, but oh well. I think that you give the TC signal, just like you would if it were a PC. When you report a PC, you don't give the "charge" (push) signal at the table; you put your hand behind your head. Same thing with the TC. I think.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally posted by tomegun

Hmmmm I never knew that!

I mean go to the table and say "black, 21 team control foul" instead of "black, 21, holding."

I will assume a smiley face on your post JR.

I think maybe- just maybe- I read your original post wrong, Tom.

Change that "maybe" to "surely".

[JRutledge]

Originally posted by rainmaker


you and Jeff must work with a lot smarter parents, players and coaches than I do. I foresee nothing but trouble if there's only one signal.

Honestly Juulie, I do not care if these people are confused. As BZ said, they want shots on PC fouls a lot of the time already. I have even had coaches say, "The basket has to count the foul was after the release." So if they cannot get the current rule right now, what makes you think another signal is going to change things with the new rule?

Peace

[tomegun]

My question was about what is verbalized at the table but the signal at the table is a question mark too. I have not been giving a team control signal at the table or verbalizing team control. If the foul is a hold on the offense I will verbalize this at the table, or an illegal screen for an illegal screen, etc.

I think the NCAA should/could do a better job of specifying some things. One play I especially don't like is a defender knocking the ball away, their momentum causeing them to take one step out of bounds and they come directly back in to get the ball for an open layup. I hope I explained that clearly but it is a violation. I don't think that is the same thing as a shooter purposely going out of bounds to use a double-screen so they can get a wide open shot. Maybe for different thread but something I don't like.

[JRutledge]

I really do not see the big deal here on what you say at the table. You either report what you have normally, then say "team control foul." Or you say, "Team control foul," then report what kind of foul took place. Either way, I think it is essential that you report to someone that you have a team control foul. Especially if you could have a rebounding foul that might require bonus shots. It really does not matter what sequence you use, just say the words somewhere.

Peace

[tomegun]

Originally posted by JRutledge
I really do not see the big deal here on what you say at the table. You either report what you have normally, then say "team control foul." Or you say, "Team control foul," then report what kind of foul took place. Either way, I think it is essential that you report to someone that you have a team control foul. Especially if you could have a rebounding foul that might require bonus shots. It really does not matter what sequence you use, just say the words somewhere.

Peace

This is why I asked the question. I do NOT think it should be reported as a team foul. I think that will be followed by "what did he do" from the coach even though communicating to the coach is not a concern. I do not report it as a team foul and (knock on wood) it has never been a problem. I originally wanted to know if it is written down somewhere that we are required to report it. If not, I will continue to leave that part off at the table. By this time coaches seem to understand that they will not get to shoot free throws if the other team had control. At least they understand it where I work.

[blindzebra]

Originally posted by tomegun

This is why I asked the question. I do NOT think it should be reported as a team foul. I think that will be followed by "what did he do" from the coach even though communicating to the coach is not a concern. I do not report it as a team foul and (knock on wood) it has never been a problem. I originally wanted to know if it is written down somewhere that we are required to report it. If not, I will continue to leave that part off at the table. By this time coaches seem to understand that they will not get to shoot free throws if the other team had control. At least they understand it where I work.

Signal 24 of the NCAA rules has the hand behind the head for both PC and TC fouls (men). Women has the fist/punch in the direction the ball is going.

Seems to me the signal is there for a reason.

For me communication is the key. If you are vocalizing at the spot of the foul about the specific act that caused the foul...hold, grab, push, illegal screen, hook, clear out, etc...you will have fewer questions as to why when you give the PC/TC signal at the table.

You are probably doing 3 whistle anyway, so you will be going tableside if more clarification is needed.

[Mark Dexter]

Originally posted by blindzebra

If you are vocalizing at the spot of the foul about the specific act that caused the foul...hold, grab, push, illegal screen, hook, clear out, etc...you will have fewer questions as to why when you give the PC/TC signal at the table.

But make sure you give the PC/TC signal at the table! I hate thinking we're in 1-and-1 because the ref signals a hold (particularly when it's close on team control/no team control) and I have to either repeatedly ask if it was team control or signal 1-and-1 to be waved off like an idiot.

[tomegun]

Mark, your partners aren't being really helpful then. If I call a hold foul at the spot and give you that spot you will probably know that it was TC. I do not report these fouls as TC to the table and I can't remember any of my partners doing it either. An evaluator hasn't said anything about it to me or any one I've worked with. I know my mechanics aren't really by the book but I think I do a pretty good job of communicating what I have. I think we all deviate in some area.

[blindzebra]

Originally posted by Mark Dexter

But make sure you give the PC/TC signal at the table! I hate thinking we're in 1-and-1 because the ref signals a hold (particularly when it's close on team control/no team control) and I have to either repeatedly ask if it was team control or signal 1-and-1 to be waved off like an idiot.

Again communication and game awareness should fix that.

If I have a TC/PC I'm giving you the spot of the throw-in. It's whistle, fist, illegal screen...or whatever...red ball here, with a point to the spot, then off to the table.

If it's not a TC/PC, I have whistle, fist, whatever the foul is, and red 23 is my shooter, then off to the table.

[rainmaker]

Originally posted by blindzebra

Again communication and game awareness should fix that.

If I have a TC/PC I'm giving you the spot of the throw-in. It's whistle, fist, illegal screen...or whatever...red ball here, with a point to the spot, then off to the table.

If it's not a TC/PC, I have whistle, fist, whatever the foul is, and red 23 is my shooter, then off to the table.

Mark is speaking from the scorekeeper's point of view, not a floor partner's.

[blindzebra]

Originally posted by rainmaker

Mark is speaking from the scorekeeper's point of view, not a floor partner's.

That makes a difference how?

If the whistle blows I hope the table is paying attention just like my floor partner.

If I'm saying it's red ball or red 23 is my shooter the scorer should have the answer, no?