I'm hitting some college camps this summer and was just curious about this. I am not looking to officiate the ACC or SEC, but a realistic goal of mine is to some day be able to officiate basketball at the collegiate level (DII or DIII even). If I dare to dream higher, I would love to work the Big Sky, Big West, or Mountain West conference one day (men or women's)

How much harder am I going to have to work to beat out you 6-footers for this chance :) ... or is height not very relevant? :) Thanks,

I don't see in my experience that it hurts your chances (assuming you're not 4'8"). I know several officials that are between 5'5" and 5'8" that work college. If you're good enough (or even not in some cases) you can work most any level. Some may say otherwise and may be equally correct based in their experience and knowledge of certain associations.

Don't let it stop you.

You can actually use it to your advantage. It'll just give the coaches more reason to pick on you, and more reason for you to throw them out. :D (I worked with a partner once who always wore glasses while officiating just so the coaches had something to make fun of him with. He wore contacts everywhere else. :D)

Of of the greatest referees I've ever heard talk about the philosophy of refereeing and basketball was probably 5'6" at the most. Don't let it get to you. Enjoy it.

I appreciate the feedback and inspirational support!!! I was of the belief that if I was equal to another guy and he was 6'0 vs. my 5'6, then they'd take him. Thank you all for lifting me "up!"

Now I just got to DO IT! Thanks again,

It can.
 

Not to say that it is the only factor, but it is a factor. Of course there are exceptions, but many of college assignors are looking for "look the part" type officials. Tall, African-American, athletic look type are preferred by many assignors. It does not mean that individuals that do not fit that description. I can just tell you if you are taller you will have more chances of being hired if you are shorter. That is of course with all things being equal. If you can work, you can work. Unfortunately officiating basketball is not much different than the NFL Draft. You vitals matter almost as much as if you can play or officiate in this case.

Peace

Well. . .
 

I don't know if it will hurt your chances, but it's embarrassing trying to jump up and reach a stuck ball!

Where's Chuck when you need him?

Seriously, Chuck Elias who usually posts here quite a bit when he's not basking in the tropical sun, is not exactly tall (although in real life he's taller than that silly squirrel which some find so offensive!). There are several men who work in women's college ball who are fairly "altitude challenged". It may be a point against you in some places but it's only one consideration. At least, that's what I observe. I have a personal friend who works in the Pac-10 and he's only about 5'7", I think. So I don't think it's a big deal.

And now that I think about it, there's rockyroad, too.

The other issue is width. I'm 6' but, uh, shall we say a little wider than some think healthy? So my height isn't enough to overcome that item. If you're shorter, but narrower, you'll get games before I will, all other things being equal.

Re: It can.
 

I am sorry, JRut, but I must take exception here. I am not sure if you have it right about the "look." I mean what does a person's ethnicity have to do with the "look". Are you implying that all things being equal a person would get the nod over another simply because he/she is of African American decent. That would be a first for me, as an African American, I have never experienced a situation where it was an advantage in the way of job opportunities. It may be true, of some leagues, if so I would like to know so I can retire there. In fact, I have seen the opposite to be true. I am in the military and as a result I have had an oppoertunity to travel to a number of differnt cities in Kansas, Nebraska, and now in El Paso, TX...I can tell you that I never once got hired, because I had the "look"...probably because I did not "look' like most of the population, and despite that I was able to get assignments. I am not sure of the exact percentage of qualified African American officials who attend these camps, but I am sure they are being hired for more than just the "look"...

Dang - I was hoping to slide under the radar here (pun intended)...in all reality, your height will probably have an impact on your getting hired...you will have to work harder, be sharper, and run more athletically than your 6' or better competition at the camps...but so what? Go out there and out-hustle and out-ref all the others at the camp and you'll get hired! I'm not very tall, but I've never heard anyone tell me that I ref small...

Re: Re: It can.
 

You can take exception all you like. The reality is that in Men's and Women's basketball, there is a push to find African-Americans and Women to officiate at the highest of levels in college basketball. In the Women's game, if you are a women you will get a chance that men will not get. Whether any of us like it or not, well over 50% of many D1 and lower level college players is African-American. There is an effort to find officials that reflect what is on the court. This is the reason many women get opportunities at the Women's game that men in general do not. It does not mean that there are people that do not fit the "profile." It just means that in an ideal world and in their recruiting process, they are looking for a certain kind of official. Whether they find applicants that are available is another issue. Just look at the NBA. There was a time when I could only name one African-American NBA Official. It now seems like almost half or at least 40% of the officials are African-American.

I cannot and will not speak for your situation. I have no idea how good of an official you are or what you look like. I also never said this was the only factor for getting hired. I know if you want to work as a D1 official, where you live and what you job is can be just as important. I know that if you live in a big city is a huge plus to getting hired. They higher ups want officials that can without much effort get on a plane and fly anywhere. I know a few Big Ten officials (in football and basketball) and they can leave without much hassle. All of them live relatively close to airport and can fly out easily. Most also have jobs that allow opportunity to get away. Usually most of these officials are in sales, education or management, where they either have more control over their hours or they can leave at earlier times and not conflict with their jobs to officiate. If you are in the military I am not sure you have the flexibility to just leave when you want to. I know many officials that are in the military and they have problems working local HS games. I have no idea if you have that flexibility that they are looking for.

If you are short, white, male (in the women's game) and do not have the right job you still have a chance. You just better be head and shoulders above those that "fit the profile" if you want to work the highest of levels in basketball. I watch the newer NBA officials and they are in better shape than many of the NBA players and have more muscles poking out their shirts than many boxers and wrestlers. I am also not talking about the officials that have been around for 20 and 30 years. Those officials have already proven they can officiate. The newly hired officials are the ones that are looking more an more like the profile I was describing.

Peace

I agree with Rut. At the first classroom meeting of the first camp (Women's side) I went to, the clinician (Doug Cloud) stated we are looking for officials in this order: 1. African-American females 2. White females 3. African-American males and 4. White males.


At other camps they have also stressed "the look" and living close to a major airport.

Can you still get some college games? Sure, I got picked up in JUCO, DIII, and DII and I'm a 5'6" white male.

JRut has pretty much said what I was going to say, except he types faster. Many assignors and clinicians at camps have told me the same things. The assignors have said repeatedly they have been told by their bosses (conference presidents, etc.) that they would like to see a mix of officials that more accurately reflect the players in that league. In men's b-ball, that means more African-American males. On the women's side, that means more women. Their reasoning is that, all other things being equal, they will give these individuals the first shot. So, as a short, white male, you need to prove yourself a little more to get that same first shot. Affirmative action would probably be the closest way to describe it. Is it fair? We could argue that all day and not come up with a solution, but it is the reality. Now, maybe that individual doesn't pan out to be a good official in the long run, and won't stay on staff as a result, but they will get that first shot.

I have been told I have the "look" that is wanted at many levels. That does not mean I will walk into a D1 camp and just get hired. You also have to have the right people pulling for you. You also have to have to be in the right place at the right time. Sometimes that means you have to live in an area that does not have a lot of officials on staff. Many things have to go your way, not just one attribute. This is not about affirmative action or race-based hiring. You still have to be able to do the job and officials are fired every year for making mistakes. It is one thing to get there. It is another to stay there. I am sure the needs and wants of the SWAC and MEAC leagues are different than the ACC and SEC. There are a lot of factors that go into getting hired, race and gender is just one of them.

Peace

What if you're a tall caucasian male who tans well, runs athletically and is married to a woman who works with a black female that lives near a major airport?

Can you officate?

Peace

You might as well take up lacrosse reffing!

WOW...I guess, it is a geographical thing...because in all my years as an African American male, I have never been told that I have the look. I have also attended Div. I college level clinics, and I have never been told that I have the look. I am 6'1" 185 lbs. with less than 10% body fat. I can see your point at what the clinicians are saying. I am not here to defend that, because in my mind that is an indefensible argument, but I will say that I, as well as many other officials I have known, have been denied opportunities, which on the surface seem to be racially motivated. Additionally, JRut makes a goood point about the military. I have had the plesure of working in a # of associations, and I have never felt like I was welcomed with open arms by the senior officials in the association, simply because I was in the military. I can only assume that see me as an interloper trying to horn in on their prime time games. While, I have only one agenda, to get better and bring credit to the science of officiating. I enjoy it immensely, and my love and passion for the game is what keeps me going despite those obstacles.

Sorry - tanlines will be your downfall.

:D

I can only relate my own experience; but my experience reflects exactly, and I mean exactly, what Rut has said. I'm 5'7", 162 lbs and the first time I went to camp with the hope of impressing a D1 assignor, this is what happened. . .

First day of camp, the assignor stresses that he is there to teach officiating, not to hire officials. He hopes to tell guys what they need to do to reach the "next level", whatever that means for each official. He looks right at me and says, "Now you, you need to grow another 6 inches". First day!

Well, for the rest of camp, I worked as hard as I could and I had a good camp, but that comment gnawed at me. So on the last day, I went to the assignor and asked him point blank how badly my lack of height would hurt my chances at ever cracking D1. He said (as close as I can remember it), "It used to be that if you were a 6'3" athletic black guy who could run, you'd be a home run. Everybody hired those guys b/c it was the look they wanted. But now, they're more interested in whether you can call the game well and consistently. Five, eight years ago you probably wouldn't have had a shot. Your chances are better now."

So just to mirror what Rut said, the look is important; but not as important as "Can you call a game?" Again, that's just my experience.

You're 5'7"????

And all these years I thought you were short because of the jokes that get made around here. 5-7 isn't short.

There are 3 officials here in Ontario that ref CIS (our NCAA) and they are about 5-3, 5-5 and 5-5. When they do a 3-person game, it is really funny to watch. LOL

Next thing I know, I'll find out that Rut really is black. ;)

Why does this ording not outrage everyone? I thought the goal was equality and hiring without regard to race or gender.

What if someone were to state that they were hiring in this order: 1. White Males 2. White Females 3. African-American Males 4. African-American Females. There would be no end to the ourage (and rightly so).

Why is discrimination right if it occurs in one direction bu not in the other?

What if the teams were required to have a composition that matched the area of the team. If that were the case, most teams would have to replace over half of their players.

All jobs...players, officials, coaches, etc. should be filled strictly based on ability...NOT gender or race...EVER.

[Edited by Camron Rust on Apr 28th, 2005 at 05:17 PM]

All jobs...players, officials, coaches, etc. should be filled strictly based on ability...NOT gender or race...EVER.

[Edited by Camron Rust on Apr 28th, 2005 at 05:17 PM] [/B][/QUOTE]

I do not think this is the correct forum to argue the merits of affirmitive actions. However, I will agree, that jobs should not be filled based on gender or race, ever. The key word being ever. Affirmitive action was/is a program put in place to rectify the wrongs of a system that had oppressed those individuals who had been denied opportunities in the past. Most officials do not understand this concept simply because they are driven by ideas such as fair play, morality and integrity. However, there are still those among us, who unfortunately see the color of a person's skin before they can hear they hear the blare of his whistle...Unfortunate...but true.

The province of Ontario went through this for a period of at least 5 years. I've heard they're getting away form it, but I will believe it when i see it.

The mentality was that if you could run and blow a whistle at the same time, and had *!*$, you're bound to move forward.

Many men could officiate circles around these women.

Actually, the smaller you are, the faster you appear to be moving, even if you're moving at the same rate of someone bigger. :cool:

Uh-oh....this is where the thread goes off the rails....

But your contribution to the conservation of momentum is decreased, unless your width is increased to make up for the decreased height. :D

I look at it this way: At least the camp evaluators and assingors told you the deal. I don't necessarily agree with it, but if you let me know what the rules of the game are, I can decide how to play.

Tell that to Ole' Miss several years back. They specifically and publicly asked for an African-American Head Basketball Coach. They wanted an African-American because of the school's history and racial tension. Most of the Mr. Basketball winners in Mississippi happened to be African-American. Being the flagship university for Mississippi and losing the top players to other state universities, the Ole' Miss made a decision to hire only an African-American as their basketball coach. Why, because an African-American in their mind would be better for the job trying to recruit and create and environment for African-American players. Ole' Miss hired and African-American coach and he worked there for several years. I think his replacement was African-American as well.

Qualifications are always subjective. If I run a school district in a largely Hispanic community, I know I would rather have Hispanic teachers than a white male if I had a choice to teach those kids. I think assigns look at this the same way. You do not have to like it. But it is the reality. I know if I want to hire a contractor to work on my house, I know I can pick only African-American contractors if I am spending my money. I can hire any independent contractor I like.

Peace

I meant to say this in my previous post, but just forgot. Your height may be an issue in getting to the D1 level, but I doubt seriously that it would be much of an issue in just getting into D3 and juco ball.

The original question, I think, was about getting into a college schedule of any sort, not just D1. And the answer to that question is, I don't think your height will hurt you much.

Moving up the ladder may be a different question.

I think Chuck you make a great point. Division 1 basketball is a different animal than working than D3 or JUCO ball.

Peace

I might add here that if you took the average height of all the men's D-1 officials and compared it to the average height of all the women's D-1 officials (men only, for comparison sake), I'm pretty sure the average on the women's side would be shorter. If you're under 6', you'll probably have a better shot climbing the ladder in women's ball. Perhaps this is because women's players on average are shorter than men's players. I don't know, but I'm sure these statistics would pan out.

The more I read these posts, the more I think "So what?"...I agree with the things Chuck and JRut have posted, but when it comes right down to it, a person's height is not one of the things they can control. Chuck and I can't do anything about the fact that we are both 5'7" (altho I've got about 10 pounds of "muscle" on him)...we CAN make sure that when we go to a camp we are among the best of the group - we can out-hustle, out-ref, out-mechanics, out-whatever all the others there so that the assignors think "Now that's the kind of official I want on my staff"...control the things you can control and don't worry about the things you can't control!

If your cash register drawer is often less than the amount shown by the register totals, then you will have a hard time officiating at the college level, since many retail outlets and even some fast food chains will prosecute, and this will show up on the NCAA background check.

Oh, not that kind of short?

Never mind.

(In memoriam, Gilda Radner, 1946-1989)

Rocky, Chuck, JRut, and everyone else...THANK YOU so much for your in-depth thoughts, analysis, and opinions. I was looking for understanding and clarification and I got it...I think! :)

And yes, I wasn't talking about D1, but rather JUCO or DIII for starters. Sure, I'd LOVE to (someday) make it to the Big West, Mountain West, or Big Sky Conference, but I realize that's far down the road and not very realistic (yet)! :)

Thanks again all for the good discussion and inspiration, I sincerely appreciate the feedback guys!

As a sub-5'10", white, male official, I can relate my experience of attending a camp last year for the assignor of the Big 12, C-USA, Sun Belt, Southland conf's. I've been told that this assignor prefers taller officials, but he (and his camp clinicians) continually stressed he will hire officials that do the "little things" - mechanics, judgement, game management - all the time/everytime.

There were guys from Orlando, FL. to Boise, ID. at this camp and many "looked the part" (6'3", 220lbs, and large upper body builds). Physically, these guys were impressive, but they have watched WAY too much TV; their mechanics were a combo. of the NBA and ACC/SEC. They won't get hired if they continue that.

Here's the advice that I've received from "shorter" officials: work tall (arm motions, hand signals, etc. should all be higher than you're used too - make yourself seem taller); use a commanding voice (sound big and have a larger prescence); move extremely well to be in the perfect position everytime; and finally (here's my favorite), wear a shirt one size smaller than normal (makes your arms look bigger) and make sure your pants are tailored to the correct length (you never want your pants to look too long - it makes you look even shorter).

If you can work, you can work and you'll get hired.

Hmmm, is it possible to "work thinner?" :D

Make your stripes wider, so you have less of them on your shirt! :D

It's good to hear that the pedulum is starting to swing back a little from 5-6 years ago. My personal experience was supervisors and clinicians were telling me "the look" was important to getting hired. Since then, in a couple of my JUCO leagues there were a couple of officials that certainly looked the part, but they were not very strong officials and therefore did not stay in the league. I think conferences were starting to notice that just having "good-looking" officials was not preferable to having good officials. So, as many people have stated already, if you know how to work, you will find a place.

I was just trying to think of something to say about the stripes.

In Earl Strom's book I remember him speaking of a part of his mechanics book that told the referees never to stand parallel or perpendicular to your out of bounds line for the sole reason that it looked bad on TV.

Personally, I may be a nice tall 6'2" or thereabouts, but I only weight 125 pounds, yet I can take on anyone. :D

:p

Not all look the part
 

Basketball officials are like a kettle of fish. There are large fish, medium fish and small fish. Large fish are alway the first one notice and then medium and small. It's the small fish that gave the good fight. The one that worked so hard not to be caught and taken.

I have been a coordinator for the past 5 years at the collegiate women's level. I would say, that I am partial to developing women official because it's their game. But I will add, there are many good men official who can officiate at the Division III level. I have not chosen officials because of their size but there compentence to officiate college basketball day in and day out.
I made to the pro's, Division I and Division III. I attended many camps before given the chance to move up at the different levels. It is a process that has been around for many years. Pay your dues and be ready when you get the call to work the next level. You do not move to the next level because of the years you have been officiating. If you thing you are that good then get to a college camp and see how good you are. High school clinics are good but not as good as a collegiate camp. You will be very humble after attending a college camp because of the talented officials.

Spoke my piece.