jewelry in girls rec

[Junker]

I can't believe the director of the tournament would tell an official if they didn't like it to leave. There must be more officials willing to work that stuff where you are than here. I'd take off and make sure every official I know in the area hears that story. It will get difficult for them to find officials in a hurry.

[Dan_ref]

A few of you have said you're fine with the players leaving their jewelry in if someone else "takes responsibility". I wouldn't be so willing to do this. If you were driving the coach to the airport & he told you he's late & he would "take responsibility" for *you* driving 85 mph what would you say?

I doubt seriously that anyone's going to get sued for little Britney losing an ear during a basketball game but IF it happens the fact that you negotiated before breaking the rule would not help you one little bit.

Just a thought.

[canuckrefguy]

Grade Six Girls Rec League?

"Thanks, I'll be leaving. Have a nice day."

Unless you feel these games are vital to your schedule, ask that a**hole tournament director to show you the quickest way out.

[tjones1]

Originally posted by rainmaker

Absolutely not. If they were just done in the last few days, it's still pretty tender, and it can be a pain to get it back in. but it's not impossible, and it does no real harm.

Thanks Juulie. The statement Snaq provided is the excuse that coaches say at the lower level. I will certainly keep that in mind.

[Goose]

Jewelry..to be or not to be!

Let's see, after almost 5000 rec league games, I have been fortunate to see maybe a half dozen serious injuries, none of which were caused by jewelry.

Now I know it only takes one, to end up in court, but there are plenty of situations where we/I have been put on the spot. Many, many times!

If you travel very far to work these games, I hate to not play because of this because truth be told, I just spent a bunch of money getting here and now we don't play because player x can't get his wedding band off? Tape it!

Secondly, I always check with management, period. Let them know in no uncertain terms what the deal is. If game management wants to play and take on the responsibility, I can either walk or do the game. I will draw the line though with any dangling items in the hair, around the neck, or hanging from the ear.

My point is, if management is paying you and they want to play the game, you have but two choices.

I also liken this to other situations where many would play on. Such as, HS gym has leak in the roof and water is dripping on the floor. Do you play or not? Management says play the game and both coaches agree. Manager will wipe the floor. Team B has traveled 50 miles for the game, so do you play?

Again, home team A has jerseys stolen and can only come up with 2 white jerseys, but some players still have their away jerseys which are red. Visitors are wearing road orange jerseys. So, do you play with 3 mixed jerseys? This was a HS game I did, so in both cases, these were actual situations. Coach A and B both wanted to play and didn't see a problem. My view was simple. Any comment that my player got confused by the color of the jersey will not be addressed. And so we played on in both cases.

On the other hand, I worked for 2 years in a fantastic rec league that was absolutely the best run adult league I have ever seen, or played in. We had a forfeit because the 5th player for team A was wearing the right color shorts but the shorts had pocket in them. You see, you had to have a full uniform and wear it! Management would not budge and so I picked up 35 dollars becasue one guy had shorts with pocket in them. Now this is the exception and not the rule from what I've seen.

Then again, how many of us have started a rec game with 4 players? Management does not want a forfeit, and says play ball. Walk or run? If we start with 4 we break the rules, but? I can't tell you how many rec games I've started with just 4 players!

Lastly, I doubt from the replies here that many have worked deep in the inner city leagues where this stuff is rampant and difficult to control. Basically, the league directors want the games played, and you are at the mercy of what the league wants. Jerseys, no jerseys. Numbers, no numbers. Different colored jerseys on the same team, same color for both teams. I've seen a lot of junk that would not pass under normal circumstances, but if they want the game played, I have but two choices.

How is this that much different than assignors telling you what type of fouls he/she wants called and which ones you should pass on. In other words, you work for them and they tell you how they want the game officiated. Again, you can work or walk. I guess I have chosen to work, and taken my chances. Yes, I have heard of people getting earlobes torn, but have never witnessed it. I've seen teeth knocked out, knees blown out, a compound fracture, broken arms, legs, cuts, ect, but nothing caused by jewelry. I guess I've just been lucky.

Again, even I have limits, but if it can be taped so that it does not dangle, or is visible, in most of these cases, I'm going to play.

goose

[ref18]

Dude, I think you need to adjust your views on some things.

Let's see, after almost 5000 rec league games, I have been fortunate to see maybe a half dozen serious injuries, none of which were caused by jewelry.

I too have never had an injury caused by jerlwery, and there's a reason for it. I don't let them play with it on.

Now I know it only takes one, to end up in court

I think you've got this one right, and are you willing to take that chance??

If you travel very far to work these games, I hate to not play because of this because truth be told, I just spent a bunch of money getting here and now we don't play because player x can't get his wedding band off? Tape it!

This isn't a new concept, these guys in the mens leagues have been playing for years, the rule hasn't changed, if you don't remove it, you can't play.

Secondly, I always check with management, period. Let them know in no uncertain terms what the deal is. If game management wants to play and take on the responsibility, I can either walk or do the game. I will draw the line though with any dangling items in the hair, around the neck, or hanging from the ear

The deal should always be this, any player which is wearing jewlery cannot play or else there won't be an official to work the game.

My point is, if management is paying you and they want to play the game, you have but two choices.

In this situation your responsibility is for the safety of the players. No responsible official would officiate a contest where players are wearing jewlery.

I also liken this to other situations where many would play on. Such as, HS gym has leak in the roof and water is dripping on the floor. Do you play or not? Management says play the game and both coaches agree. Manager will wipe the floor. Team B has traveled 50 miles for the game, so do you play?

Again, the safety of the players is your top concern, the game gets cancelled. No questions. I compare this to football, if you see lightning in the distance do you play on because management says it's heading away from your location?? Absolutely not. Again no responsible official would officiate a game in these conditions.

Again, home team A has jerseys stolen and can only come up with 2 white jerseys, but some players still have their away jerseys which are red. Visitors are wearing road orange jerseys. So, do you play with 3 mixed jerseys? This was a HS game I did, so in both cases, these were actual situations. Coach A and B both wanted to play and didn't see a problem. My view was simple. Any comment that my player got confused by the color of the jersey will not be addressed. And so we played on in both cases.

Playing with the wrong colour of jersey does not affect the safety and well being of the participants of the game. Your primary responsibility should be to the players. This is completely different from a jewlery issue.

On the other hand, I worked for 2 years in a fantastic rec league that was absolutely the best run adult league I have ever seen, or played in. We had a forfeit because the 5th player for team A was wearing the right color shorts but the shorts had pocket in them. You see, you had to have a full uniform and wear it! Management would not budge and so I picked up 35 dollars becasue one guy had shorts with pocket in them. Now this is the exception and not the rule from what I've seen.

That rule has nothing to do with the officials or how we officiate the game, that is a call from the convenor, and if he says we don't play then we don't play. But if I say we don't play, he can't turn around and make me let'em play.

Then again, how many of us have started a rec game with 4 players? Management does not want a forfeit, and says play ball. Walk or run? If we start with 4 we break the rules, but? I can't tell you how many rec games I've started with just 4 players!

We have leagues where it's sanctioned for them to play 4 on 4 or 3 on 3 in the event that some players don't show up.

Lastly, I doubt from the replies here that many have worked deep in the inner city leagues where this stuff is rampant and difficult to control. Basically, the league directors want the games played, and you are at the mercy of what the league wants. Jerseys, no jerseys. Numbers, no numbers. Different colored jerseys on the same team, same color for both teams. I've seen a lot of junk that would not pass under normal circumstances, but if they want the game played, I have but two choices.

I could care less if they go shirts or skins, or they have pinnies, as long as I can tell the difference between the two teams I'm happy. The problem starts when you start risking the safety of the players by allowing them to wear items that could be potentially dangerous in a basketball game.

How is this that much different than assignors telling you what type of fouls he/she wants called and which ones you should pass on. In other words, you work for them and they tell you how they want the game officiated. Again, you can work or walk. I guess I have chosen to work, and taken my chances. Yes, I have heard of people getting earlobes torn, but have never witnessed it. I've seen teeth knocked out, knees blown out, a compound fracture, broken arms, legs, cuts, ect, but nothing caused by jewelry. I guess I've just been lucky.

I work for the assignors, not site management. I know my assignor will have my back when I put the safety of the players first. Remember the assignors are fellow officials, they know what they're doing, most site convenors don't know sh!t when it comes to officiating. I'll leave the organizational tasks to them, but they better not interfere with my officiating.

Again, even I have limits, but if it can be taped so that it does not dangle, or is visible, in most of these cases, I'm going to play.

Your limits are way too low, you really need to tweak them. Remember, it's all fun and games until someone gets hurt, and by allowing participation while wearing jewlery, you're just begging for a jerwlery related injury. Our job is to put the players safety first, and some officials need to realize that it's better the game be postponed or cancelled then to have it played in conditions.

[Goose]

My point with the items I listed was to simply point out that we tend to bend the rules for all kinds of situations and circumstances which under (more) controlled circumstances we would not allow. As an official I think it is important to get the game played and be somewhat flexible. We work through all kinds of situations and this one is no different IMO.

With that being said, I can say, that in the case of jewelry, I do not bend the rules for high school and below level play. I am more open though to bend the rules for jewelry when it involves men. At least with men, they know the responsibilty and can take it. Ever see a league make the players sign an injury waiver? Just my point. Many adult leagues require each player to sign a injury waiver absolving the league form any type of legal matter dealing with injuries. So, if they can sign that away (technically no one can sign their right to litigation away), I feel that I am perfectly capable of adhering to what the league wants under certain circumstances.

When I first started out 20 years ago, I was told work! Work every game you can which was 200 or more games a year coming from my mentors. You can't do that, and you won't be asked to work if every time you show up to do a rec game things have to be run exactly by the book.

Another case in point involving AAU. I have worked AAU tournaments where there are 4 courts being utilized at the same time and are adjacent to each other with no throwin space on the sidelines or under the basket, and in one gym, the WALL is out of bounds! Unsafe? You bet, but yet this AAU tournament has 350 teams coming from all over New England, NY and NJ. So, you gonna not play? This is another example of something I would never allow in other games, but becasue of the magnitude of the tournament and the distance traveled, we will play, and as an official, I will do my best to insure that I keep the playing area as safe as humanly possible.

Again, another illustration. This involved the wearing of the Jewish yamicka. I happened to work what was termed as the Jewish Junior Olympics. This was another huge tournament that invovled hundreds of teams from all over the eastern U.S. Upon my arrival, the site director said, most of the boys will be wearing yamicka's. Do not mess with them. Now I know perfectly well that during HS play, they are permitted as long as they are not attached or kept in place with metal bobby pins etc. But in this case, the director said let them play, period, even if they have to use metal bobby pins to hold them in place. At that point, he goes on record for taking full responsibility and for what it is worth, every official that I know got the same instructions and followed them or they didn't work. Of course if you refused to work, you would never work for that assignor again, and that assignor happens to hand out about 80-90 percent of rec and AAU games.

Like I said, in my situations, you either compromised with conditions, or you didn't work. And if you didn't work, you didn't advance, or even get considered for HS work.

So the choice for me came down to sticking to my guns and working by the book which meant sitting at home, or working under uncertain conditions. I chose and choose to work.

goose

[wisref2]

Careful here - it doesn't matter what some game administrator or coach says. If you're playing under high school rules, no jewelry may be worn and nobody has the power to set aside rules (exception follows). It can't be more clear. No discussion, no debate.

If the league has a WRITTEN rule that jewelry may be worn (and the league is not formally connected to the NFHS), then go with it because you're covered. But personally, I wouldn't work that league because it's dangerous.

[Dan_ref]

Originally posted by wisref2
Careful here - it doesn't matter what some game administrator or coach says. If you're playing under high school rules, no jewelry may be worn and nobody has the power to set aside rules (exception follows). It can't be more clear. No discussion, no debate.

If the league has a WRITTEN rule that jewelry may be worn (and the league is not formally connected to the NFHS), then go with it because you're covered. But personally, I wouldn't work that league because it's dangerous.

Also...there's wording for religious dress exception in the nf & ncaa rules. IOW a yarmulka is OK, as I suppose a burka would be, or sandals for monks.

BTW, in a u17 (or u16?) boys game last weekend a kid came on the court with tape on his ear. We sent him off, both the player & the coach knew the rule & knew we were right, no fuss, no muss. If the director would have told us to let him play there would have been a game with no officials.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally posted by Goose


So the choice for me came down to sticking to my guns and working by the book which meant sitting at home, or working under uncertain conditions. I chose and choose to work.

That's your choice.

Fwiw, I agree completely with Ref18. In our area, we make the choice for our officials. We will never assign our guys to games where they will knowingly be asked to bend safety rules. We supply each official with sheets listing the applicable safety rules of each ruleset they will be using. We inform all leagues and teams that we service, including rec leagues and rec teams, that safety rules will not be waived for any of their games. Our members are also told that if someone asks them to bend or ignore one of those safety rules at a game, their answer will always be "no", and they are expected to walk out the door if that answer isn't acceptable. They are further told that if they want to make an individual decision to do that game anyway - hey, that's fine- but their membership in our association will be terminated if we find out about it. As an association, we are liable if our members ignore plainly written safety rules.

It works for us; it takes the decision off of the back of the individual official and lays it on our association. If someone doesn't like it when one of our officials refuses to ignore a safety rule, they just get told by that official to "call my assignor".

Personally, if I had to make an individual choice at a game, then I'd be outa there every time. I'm not taking any chance of having an injury to a player on my conscience that maybe was related to my deliberately ignoring a safety rule in favor of making a few bucks.

[Goose]

>That's your choice.

As I stated, it is my choice to work or not, and I've never not worked a game in 20 years due to a safety issue. That's not to say never, but it has yet to happen.

>Fwiw, I agree completely with Ref18. In our area, we make >the choice for our officials. We will never assign our >guys to games where they will knowingly be asked to bend >safety rules.

This is fantastic, but unfortunately, I am not used to this. Most assignors do not work for our board, or any board. Some do and the ones that do, well, if you refuse to work, you won't work at all.

>We supply each official with sheets listing the applicable >safety rules of each ruleset they will be using. We inform >all leagues and teams that we service, including rec >leagues and rec teams, that safety rules will not be >waived for any of their games.

This is also great, and you should be commended, but in states where I have and am currently working, you are considered a private contractor and 90 percent of the time, the board has no jurisdiction over any of the leagues or tournaments unless the assignor was/is a board member. So, being a hired gun so to speak, I dodn't have those luxury's all the time.

>As an association, we are liable if our members ignore >plainly written safety rules.

Once again, as a private contractor, our board, or say your association has nothing to say about when and where I work. If I chose to "remove my shirt" as we used to say, then my association is off the hook and it all falls on me. If a league wants to hire my services, it is up to me whether I take the job or not. My association has no authority over my jobs, unless they have been contracted to supply officials.

Again, how often have you worked with non-association officials? I am an IAABO member, but I've worked with many officials who do not belong to IAABO. In many cases you do not know who you are working with when assigned to an AAU tournament or rec league. Perfect example is this weekend in City X where I will be working with an unknown covering the state AAU finals. When/if you travel out of your association or board boundaries, things can get fuzzy as in my case.

In my earlier example of full uniform, that league was run in Hartford, and they had their own set of rules. Neither FED nor NCAA, but more like a cross of both with a mix of the NBA. My board had no say in whether I worked there or not.

>If someone doesn't like it when one of our officials >refuses to ignore a safety rule, they just get told by >that official to "call my assignor".

That again is wonderful, but I haven't had the opportunity to work for a perfect association\board or assignor. Not to mention that if the assignor says, work it, or you can forget about working any longer.

Here is a direct quote from a guideline document I have been sent concerning an upcoming tourney in a different state:

"From time to time the tournament director may ask a question about a situation. Explain the best you can and follow his directive. He is the boss. If he is not happy, I’m not happy. If further discussion is needed, let me do it later after you talk with me. Always, inform him or her of the rule before you explain your call"

Notice the "he is the boss", and "if he is not happy, I'm not happy." If he says, play, well then I have two choices, again.


Lastly, this issue has been completely blown out of proportion and it is partly my fault. I do not want folks to think that every time I work, I am somehow bending safety rules just to get the game in. Nothing could be further from the truth. I have stated repeatedly that there have been, and I'm sure there will be, times in the future that I will be asked to compromise by letting a adult player tape an earlobe. If it means playing or not, I will have them tape the earlobe as long as both coaches and administration agree, and we will play. I will not, and have not compromised on sub-adult levels.

As I said, this is not an everyday/everygame event. These are exceptions and hardly what I run with. It's just that I have always been taught to be as flexible as possible.

I really am glad that some of you have a better handle on these situations, because this is not the norm I have seen over 20 years.

goose