Here's the sitch.

Near end of quarter, 3.6s left. Backcourt endline throw-in. Thrower-in bounce passes the ball to A2, who doens't touch the ball. I'm T, keep my arm raised and eye the clock, becasue as we know, many timers start the clock when they think the ball is touched, not when my arm comes down. So the ball is bouncing, as yet untouched inbounds, and my P, the R, with his back to the ball, sees that the clock is not running. He whistles it dead and tells me that the clock wasn't running. At the whistle, the ball was bouncing right at half-court, still untouched, and B has dropped down to a zone. After the whistle went, A2 picks up the ball, and my P turns around to see A2 has it.

Comments?

Tell your partner to turn his dumba$$ around and stop running with his head turned away from the play. :(

Then, go back and inbound the ball from the original throw-in spot.

By rule, it's an inadvertant whistle with no team control -- go to the arrow.

In practice, what Tony said -- and no one will complain.

convoluted solution
 

That's one good thing about the recent change in the NCAA team control rule. Since there is now team control during a throw-in, you don't have to use the arrow.

For NFHS, if you really want to get it right, you have to use the arrow, and if it is going the other way, you'll get to throw the coach out. :D

A funny solution which you could use, and still do it by the book, would be to administer the AP throw-in to the opponents and as soon as the kid passes the ball, blow your whistle. Now you have another accidental whistle and the arrow is going back to the team which had it in the first place.

If the first arrow allowed the original team to retain possession, then simply have an accidental whistle during the next AP throw-in and fix it that way.

The advertent inadvertent whistle. I like it.

It's actually false double inadvertant whistle. :)

Nothing like some old NFL mechanics working their way into NFHS basketball.

The added bonus of Nevada's "false double inadvertant whistle" that he fails to mention is that you get to toss BOTH coaches. :D

Are you sure about that??

My thought is that it is the rule to give it back to A.

A is originally due a throwin for some reason...an infraction. A gets the throwin due to the infraction unless another infraction occurs to supercede it.

Rule 6-3-3e: The ball becomes dead when neither team is in control and no goal or infraction or end of a quarter or extra period is involved.

If the whistle is blown before the throwin has been completed, an infraction is involved....the original infraction. A is still due a throwin for that infraction.

Tony is correct in this case on all points. Team A receivest the ball for a throw-in at the original spot of its throw-in with 3.6 seconds on the clock.

The officials do NOT go to the AP Arrow in this case because when the Dumba$$, I am sorry, the L sounded his whistle, Team A's throw-in had not ended.

MTD, Sr.

Just where is there a rule suggesting that the throw-in not ending has ANYTHING to do with this play?

CB 7.5.4 says otherwise.:rolleyes:

CB 7.5.4, R 4-12-6.;)

Agree. CB 7.5.4(c) to be a l'il more explicit.

JR and BZ:

I am glad that both of you know the definition of team control. But I am sorry, but NFHS Casebook Play 7.5.4(c) does not apply to this play because CB 7.5.4(c) involves a field goal attempt, not a throw-in. And while there is not team control during a throw-in, Team A's throw-in had not ended when the Dumba$$, I mean L, accidently sounded his whistle. There is no rule that allows the officials to go to the AP Arrow in this situation and possibly take the ball away from Team A. The L has to eat his whistle and tell Coach B that he screwed up and Team A keeps the ball for a throw-in.

Lets make this play even more interesting. Team A is winning the game by one point and the AP Arrow is pointing toward Team B's basket. Are you really going to give the ball to Team B for a throw-in with 3.6 seconds left in the game. I hope not.

MTD, Sr.

Cite a rule or case play that states that ending the throw-in is germane.

Leave it to you to say that the rules covering team control has no baring because the specific case play does not specically address no team control during a throw-in.

A new low even for you. Team control is team control and once again it's MTD's OPINION versus what is the actual rule book.

Gee, you don't want 7.5.4(c) to apply to this play, do you Mark? :D

What difference does it make if the inadvertant whistle occured during a throw-in or field goal attempt? In both cases, you have a live ball with neither team in control when the inadvertant whistle sounded. Both cases are covered under R6-4-3(e), which says that you go to the AP.

What rule do you plan on using to give a repeat throw-in?

PS- just for the record, in real life I'd do what Tony said to do too. Sell it quickly and get the ball back into play with a repeat throw-in. That's the fair way.

Maybe I'm missing something.

A1 successfully throws the ball in from the end line to mid court. The game ending horn erroneously sounds. You decide to take A allllll the way back to the endline again.

How is this fair to A again?

You are absolutely missing something.

From the origional post:

So the ball is bouncing, as yet untouched inbounds, and my P, the R, with his back to the ball, sees that the clock is not running. He whistles it dead and tells me that the clock wasn't running. At the whistle, the ball was bouncing right at half-court, still untouched, and B has dropped down to a zone. After the whistle went, A2 picks up the ball, and my P turns around to see A2 has it.

A successful throw-in has not happened.;)

You into the herb again tonight?

This play is about an inadvertant whistle during a throw-in, not a horn during or after a throw-in. Completely different animals. Different rules too.

Iow, You're in the wrong thread, Bozo.

Oh.

Never mind.

http://northcoastcafe.typepad.com/ph...ized/gilda.jpg

Does it matter that the clock is running in one sitch and not the other?

No, because this has nothing to do with time or a timer's error it's an accidental whistle.

JR and BZ:

Since there is no team control during a throw-in are you going to go to the AP Arrow if the L accidentally sounds his whistle while A1 is still holding the ball out of bounds. In both this case and the original play, the throw-in has not ended and there is no team control therefore according to your interpretation, the officials must go to the AP Arrow and if it favors Team B, Team B will receive the ball for a throw-in at the spot that A1 was making Team A's throw-in prior to the L accidently sounding his whistle.

MTD, Sr.

Mark, nothing has changed from my post of 8:31pm last night. Nothing!

Are you ever gonna answer the question put to you in that post? It's repeated above in this post too. Again......What rule do you plan on using to justify a repeat throw-in?

How about CB 7.5.4(d) to be a l'il more explicit.....

"..even though, by rule, there is no team control during this dead-ball period, the ball would be given to (the thrower-in team)...The thrower-in team would have clearly received the ball had the official not accidentally sounded his/her whistle."

I think this can be applied to this situation, it sounds like a common sense judgement/correction (as illustrated by MTD's example of A1 still holding the ball OOB when the whistle sounds.)

And guess what we did...
 

I never did say what we did with the sitch.

Now that some discussion has been posted, here is what we did:

We talked about it and two points were brought up:

(a) re-do the throw-in from the original throw-in spot
(b) have an A throw-in from a spot nearest to where the ball was when A2 was 1 foot from the ball and team B players were no closer than 25 feet from the ball

I know that I've done some odd things in the past, and I didn't deviate much from that with this situation. We went with option (b). Team A throw-in at half-court. :cool:

If anyone wants the rationale, ask.

Re: And guess what we did...
 

Please, share your rationale. :)

We knew that it was reasonable that A could secure the ball without difficulty, and should not be penalized for an official's error.

It was surmised that (a) B clearly was giving A the real estate, as they immediately went to a zone defense, and (b) B didn't mind that A was trying to preserve time on the clock by not touching it until absolutely necessary.

You're right. That's certainly an odd way to handle it.

Re: convoluted solution
 

You're my hero! This may have been one of the best posts ever.

Re: convoluted solution
 

There is a problem with this solution.

If you were to go with the arrow, the arrow is not reversed until the throw-in is completed. Since your solution means blowing the whistle before it is touched inbounds, the only other method to reverse the arrow using a rule, is to claim that the new throw-in team has violated the throw-in provisions. :D

Re: Re: convoluted solution
 

What about timing the whistle with the first touch inbounds, before the receiver has the opportunity to control the ball. Throw-in ends with the touch, no team control has been established.

Re: Re: Re: convoluted solution
 

That could work, only if the player doesn't catch the ball cleanly.

Using the premise that the shot clock and the game clock start simultaneously when she does catch the ball cleanly, the same premise applies to our little twist.

Argh! WHAT ARE YOU WE GOING TO DO! :D :D

Rats, you're right. Good thought by BITS, but I agree that doesn't quite do it either.
That's what I get for trying to be creative.

Glad stmaryrams liked the post though. Makes it worth the time.

But what are the chances that a coach will know this rule? :D

This is so much simpler than the 3 pages of posts suggest.

Parallel Situation: Held Ball. Arrow to A. Official erroneously gives ball to B. Before the ball is touched inbounds, the official realizes the error and blows the whistle. The ruling is to give the ball to A for the deserved AP throwin. If the ball had been touched inbounds, it would be too late.

The case being discussed here is EXACTLY the same. A whistle is blown when the ball is not in control of either team. And, there is a presribed throwin due to one of the teams as a result of the prior infraction.

If the whistle is blown before the throwin ends (and it is not due to a new infraction), you revert to the original reason that a throwin was occuring to begin with and start it over. No AP involved at all unless the original throwin was supposed to be and AP throwin.