Situation this weekend in a tournament using NFHS rules:

4.1 seconds on the clock with second of two freethrows being attempted. Second shot is successfull with ball rattling around the rim. Timer starts the clock as it touches the rim. Non-shooting team takes ball out and passes ball to half court just as buzzer sounds.

Question: Since the timer clearly started the clock too soon, can this timing error be corrected? Please provide a rule reference.

when did it get noticed
 

When did the officials notice the mistake? If they noticed it when it occured they could have stopped it right there reset the clock and moved on...if they didn't realize it until the buzzer went off, they may not have definite knowledge, and without that there is no way to reset it...however if they had a count in the back court or the oob portion of the play, and had only gotten to 2 they may have knowledge....in short we need a little more info

I was lead official on this play, and knew there were 4.1 seconds left on the clock since I checked the time before the second FT was administered. The buzzer went off immediately after the player at half court received the ball on the long inbound pass. Timer admitted that she started the clock when the ball hit the rim.

You can correct the timer's error in this case because you had exact knowledge of the time involved. Put 4.1 seconds back on the clock and give the ball to the non-FT shooting team on the endline for another end-line throw-in. You can't give the ball to the non-throwing team at half-court because you <b>don't</b> have definite knowledge of how much time elapsed on the first throw-in.

NFHS rule 5-10-1.

JR is right, as expected. Good thing that the basket was good, otherwise you would have a tough time with definite knowledge. In this situation, because of the good basket, you know that no time should have elapsed between the second free throw and the first legal touch in bounds after the throw-in. Make sure you let them run the end-line on the throw.

That is exactly how we did it, but I couldn't find a reference in the rule book or case book to back me up. Can you provide one?

Funny story follows: After much arguing by the team who just shot the FTs and after putting the 4.1 back on the clock, the inbounding team attempted a long pass and hit the curtain that divides the main court into two side courts! The team that argued wound up getting the ball back under their basket with another opportunity to score. Funny how things work out like that.

If the buzzer sounded while the ball was in the air then yes.

What if A2 caught the ball at mid-court before the buzzer sounded? You going back to the endline with no time run off?

That's the rule I'm looking for. Thanks.

I am not so sure
 

I am not sure that you can correct this. The definite knowledge in this case is not the 4.1, but the time elapsed when the player caught the ball...I do think if you correct it you move it to half court and put up the difference of 4.1 and what your 5 second count was up to assuming you had one going...if it was at 3 when the buzzer went off and there should have been little to no time run off I would go with 3 seconds at midcourt...However with all that said if the buzzer goes off before the player touches it I agree 100% with JR, put it at 4.1 and run the endline boys...

Re: I am not so sure
 

Mathews -- the clock wasn't running during the throw-in. So there should have been 4.1 when the player at mid-court caught the ball. If the buzzer sounded right as that player was catching, a do-over is within the rules...

... unless you want to have another 12 page thread complete with MTD heading up to the attic and roto-rootering out another 50 years worth of old rule books from 9 different organizations!

LOL no 12 pg thread
 

remember this one happens with 4.1 as opposed to 2.8 so there is no 12 pg thread needed LOL...Juulie I agree with you if the buzzer sounds before or just as the player catches the ball, however if it occurs after the player catches it, and I believe it does, then you need to move it to mid court, and this is where the definite knowledge comes in, decide how much time is on the clock..if you had a count at 3 from the OOB play when the player touched it, then the buzzer goes off, you then know of at least 3 seconds of time that was running when it shouldn't be...set it at 3 give them the ball at midcourt and go...

Aw, geeze, you just started up the same ol' dumb argument again. :D

How can you possibly leave the ball at center? You'd then have to take some time off the clock to allow for the catch at center on the throw-in, wouldn't you? Now, how can you take any time off the clock when you don't have a clue as to how much time elapsed <b>exactly</b> on that throw-in catch. R5-10 won't let you put time back on the clock unless you have <b>exact</b> knowledge of how much time to put up. Well, in the case of a catch at center, you <b>don't</b> have exact knowledge. You'd have to guess at the elapsed time, and the rules won't let you guess.

The only spot in this play sequence where you do have <b>exact</b> knowledge of the time remaining is at the point where the throw-in occurred on the end line. If you're gonna correct anything, you gotta do it there.

The 5-second throw-in count would end as soon as the ball was released by the thrower towards the court on the throw-in.

Mathews -- It doesn't sound like there was much time if any between the catch and the buzzer. It may have even buzzed while the ball was in the air. I say, Do-over.

Good point JR...this kills any definite knowledge here because once you stop the count when the ball is thrown, you have no knowledge as to how long the ball was in the air.

As I said in the response to the other post, you wouldn't have a count going when the ball was caught at center. The 5-second throw-in count ended when the ball left the thrower's hand(s) on the throw-in.

There's still no definite knowledge available to take exact time off the clock and then give possesssion at center.

What if we're smart enough to anticipate the clock foul up & keep a count going between the time the ball is released & the time the buzzer sounds?

Then what?

you do have knowledge
 

You have the knowledge of how long you had the count for, if it was at 2 when it was released then you go with 2 seconds....I do agree that if you can possibly convince yourself and/or others that the buzzer went off in the air, by all means do so and put 4.1 on the clock and go...if however it was clearly after he caught it, the only definite knowledge you have is the counts you might have been administering...

Re: Re: I am not so sure
 

WILL IT NEVER END??


B1 makes the second of two free throws. A1 throws the inbounds pass to A2 who catches A1's inbounds pass at the division line. The game clock starts when the ball is touched by or touches A2. PERIOD!! It does not matter if the game clock was incorrectly started and the game clock horn's sounded before or as A2 was catching A1's inbounds pass; the sounding of the game clock's horn does not stop play. Only the officials can stop the play in this situation. A1's inbounds pass to A2 is not negated by the fact that the game clock was started incorrectly. Team A receives the ball for a throw-in nearest the spot that A2 caught A1's inbounds pass and the game clock is set at 4.1 seconds.

We can debate whether the game clock should be set at 4.1 seconds or 3.8 seconds per the NBA/WNBA rule, but since NFHS and NCAA does not use the NBA/WNBA rule, the game clock must be set at 4.1 seconds.

This play is not a do-over. I REPEAT: This play is NOT a do-over.

MTD, Sr.

Here we go. The over/under is 4 pages, I got $5 on over.

http://www.vail.k12.az.us/cwehome/ba...ll/popcorn.png

is this a conflict of interest???
 

Hey Dan,
since you are involved in the thread, isn't it a conflict of interest to be involved in the over under bet?? Oh wait sorry I will go post this in the moral question thread.....my bad :D

Push?

This play is not a do-over. I REPEAT: This play is NOT a do-over.

[/B][/QUOTE]There is no rules basis to support the above statement. I REPEAT: There is no rules basis to support the above statement.

If you ever find a rule that will support your fantasy and negate R5-10, Mark, please cite it.

You have the knowledge of how long you had the count for, if it was at 2 when it was released then you go with 2 seconds....I do agree that if you can possibly convince yourself and/or others that the buzzer went off in the air, by all means do so and put 4.1 on the clock and go...if however it was clearly after he caught it, the only definite knowledge you have is the counts you might have been administering... [/B][/QUOTE]And the count you were administering was 2 seconds <b>plus</b> an indeterminate, unknown amount of time the ball spent in the air after it left the thrower's hands until the horn went. You do not have definite knowledge of that exact time the ball was in the air from the cessation of your count until the sounding of the horn. If the ball was caught, you also don't have any exact knowledge of how much time it took to catch the ball until the horn then sounded either. That's why you cannot use R5-10 in this case and place the ball at center. That has always been the flaw in MTD Sr's argument.

JR, I don't disagree that there is not exact knowledge, but the two seconds or whereever the count was, is the closest thing to definite knowledge that you have...Again I say if you can reasonably say that the horn went off in the air then bring it back and go with 4.1 and repeat, but my assertation is that if it is obviously after the catch you have to go with the time you definitely know should not have come off the clock....and the only thing you can know is that the count you were at is the time that should not have come off the clock...if it is 2 seconds that is your definite knowledge, if it is 1 then that is it...Like I said it isn't exact knowledge, but it is definite.

I'll take the under.

And, to summarize: Depending on how you read the rules / cases, there either is or is not rules support for almost anything you might or might not do.