against them? I did a men's league game last night and the PG was getting double teamed before his dribble. He started to dribble and itbounced off his foot right to a teammate standing underneath the basket. My partner blew his whistle and called a kicked ball and gave the ball to the defense. One of the players came up to me and said that the offense cannot have a kicked ball called against them. I just said that my partner made the call and we would talk about it.

We had a conversation and he said that it looked to him like the PG intentionally kicked it toward that player. I said that we would go with that and he explained to the "coach" what the call was. What is the rule? We are using NFHS rules.

Don't ever listen to players. The violation for deliberately kicking the ball applies to every player on the floor--all 10 of 'em.

Yep. If it was intentional it was a kicked ball.

BTW, a kick ball means more than just "kicking" it. It includes any deliberate act, such as grabbing the ball with your feet or legs in order to secure it.

Like you might see with a loose ball & players on the floor.

The key is intent, not offense or defense. Any player can be called for the violation if, in the referee's opinion, there was an intent to stop or move the ball with any part of the leg.

As for JR's comment about never listening to the players - you might want to listen sometimes. After all, they have a tendency to same some amusing things sometimes...;)

Rule 4-29 says, "Kicking the ball is intentionally striking it with any part of the leg or foot."

That is it. The rule is just that one line. It says nothing about offense or defense.

You might want to think of it this way. Do you think it would be fair for an offensive player to kick a loose ball away from a defensive player on a possible break away?

Peace

I would probably say that this is probably one of the rules that fans don't know -- that is they think it can only be called on the defense.

I called this on the offense about 3 times this year alone. One time an one of my partners tried to question what I saw. He obviously bought into that same idea about what the offense could or could not do.

Peace

I only saw it called once this year on the offense and I didn't call it. I would also say that they (fans) think just because it hits the foot/leg that is it an automatic violation. Of course we know beter. ;)

There was a book published this year by the NFHS that listed all of the rules that fans don't know. I believe it was called the "2004-2005 Basketball Rules Book." :D

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Dan_ref
[B]BTW, a kick ball means more than just "kicking" it. It includes any deliberate act, such as grabbing the ball with your feet or legs in order to secure it.

Where do you get this????

How do you interpret this from "striking" with leg or foot????????

This has been debated before.

The intent of the rule is making it illegal to gain an advantage by CONTACTING the ball with your leg.

The rule would be better served if it read intentionally contacting the ball and not intentionally striking the ball.;)

__________________________________________________ _________
Come on Tanner. You don't mean you really think there are fans who don't know the rules do you? After all, every howler monkey is a genius! Right? (LOL)

[QUOTE

This has been debated before.

The intent of the rule is making it illegal to gain an advantage by CONTACTING the ball with your leg.

The rule would be better served if it read intentionally contacting the ball and not intentionally striking the ball.;) [/B][/QUOTE]

I know this has been debated before and I don't buy the "intent of the rule" argument. If a player wants to hold the ball between his/her knees I don't see an infraction. I'll discontinue my post on this subject because I'm sure we'll only agree that we disagree.

I know this has been debated before and I don't buy the "intent of the rule" argument. If a player wants to hold the ball between his/her knees I don't see an infraction. I'll discontinue my post on this subject because I'm sure we'll only agree that we disagree. [/B][/QUOTE]

Whoa, hold on here.

Don't run away yet.

What if the player uses his foot to sweep the loose ball towards him? And then holds it between his knees?

He didn't "strike" it, did he?

:D

Maybe one out of a million! :)

A few years back when I was officiating a 2nd & 3rd grader's intramural game, the ball became loose and someone who was on the original offensive team kicked it away from the players trying to go for it, so I called a kick violation and commented to myself "gee, this is the first time Ive seen an offensive player called for a kick." :D

I know this has been debated before and I don't buy the "intent of the rule" argument. If a player wants to hold the ball between his/her knees I don't see an infraction. I'll discontinue my post on this subject because I'm sure we'll only agree that we disagree. [/B][/QUOTE]

As posted before, it's specifically in the NCAA book, and was in some old FED interp.

[/B][/QUOTE]

Whoa, hold on here.

Don't run away yet.

What if the player uses his foot to sweep the loose ball towards him? And then holds it between his knees?

He didn't "strike" it, did he? [/B][/QUOTE]

My apologies to you all. I have never looked at the NCAA rules. I just looked up "Kicking the Ball" in the NCAA rule book and found the following:

A.R. 30. A1 is on the floor with the ball lodged between the upper part of the legs. B1
attempts to gain possession of the ball by placing two hands firmly on the ball; however,
A1 applies vice-like force with the upper legs, which prevents B1 from gaining
possession of the ball. RULING: A1 has committed a violation. The intent of this Rule
is to prevent a player from gaining an advantage by using any part of the leg.
Although A1 did not kick or strick the ball with any part of the leg, the player did
gain an illegal advantage, which may also lead to undue roughness. Since A1 was not
holding the ball in his or her hands, B1’s firm placement of his or her hands on the
ball does not constititute a held ball.

So, As hard as it is to admit...gulp....you were right and I was wrong.

What the heck are you doing? How am I supposed to get my entertainment watching arguments if one person just gives up and admits the others are right?

What's this forum coming to?

:D

Whoa, hold on here.

Don't run away yet.

What if the player uses his foot to sweep the loose ball towards him? And then holds it between his knees?

He didn't "strike" it, did he? [/B][/QUOTE]

My apologies to you all. I have never looked at the NCAA rules. I just looked up "Kicking the Ball" in the NCAA rule book and found the following:

A.R. 30. A1 is on the floor with the ball lodged between the upper part of the legs. B1
attempts to gain possession of the ball by placing two hands firmly on the ball; however,
A1 applies vice-like force with the upper legs, which prevents B1 from gaining
possession of the ball. RULING: A1 has committed a violation. The intent of this Rule
is to prevent a player from gaining an advantage by using any part of the leg.
Although A1 did not kick or strick the ball with any part of the leg, the player did
gain an illegal advantage, which may also lead to undue roughness. Since A1 was not
holding the ball in his or her hands, B1’s firm placement of his or her hands on the
ball does not constititute a held ball.

So, As hard as it is to admit...gulp....you were right and I was wrong. [/B][/QUOTE]

I get 1 right per week, although I kinda wish I could have saved it for my aau games this weekend. Oh well...

:)

don't leave just yet....
 

The original post states NFHS rules.....while the NCAA rule is clearly written the rule in HS is nebulous .
I would have a hard time calling a "kicked ball" if a player fumbled the ball and then held it between his thighs to hold on to it .....especially before last year when the upper part of the leg was included in the definition of a "kicked" ball .
As someone noted earlier I think the language needs to be cleaned up on this rule...

Re: don't leave just yet....
 

I don't know if this will help, but I remember reading somewhere (maybe comments on rules, or something buried deep in the casebook, perhaps notes from one of Dr. Naismith's classes, etc.) that basketball was meant to be played with the hands, not the feet. This was to distinguish it from other sports like football and soccer. That's why you can't kick (intentionally strike) the ball with the leg, offense or defense. That's soccer, not basketball. Granted, the NFHS rules aren't written as clearly as NCAA, but using that logic it should be easy to follow that holding the ball with the legs is not allowed as well.

Re: don't leave just yet....
 

Now that I'm on board with what appears to be the general consensus, I think the important thing to note is the word advantage. A player merely holding the ball between his/her legs may not be a violation but when that player uses his/her legs to prevent an opponent from gaining access to the ball it becomes an advantage and therefore a violation.

I would not rule holding the ball with their legs a kick. Absent of a specific ruling that would suggest that as the proper interpretation, I will just stick with a "striking" action as my general rule of thumb. I think that would be too broad if you penalized every player for holding the ball underneath them.

Peace

I would probably agree that I would have a lot of explaning to do if I called a violation just because a player was on the floor with the ball on their legs. But the NCAA does specifically address using the legs to hold the ball firmly. The violation wasn't just because the ball was there in the first place, but that the player then used the legs to hold unto it firmly while the defender tried to get it. That's certainly not "striking" the ball, but it is using the legs as an unfair advantage. It seems a lot like the errant pass going off a defender's leg - the ball hitting the leg is not a violation, but intentionally moving the leg into the path of the ball is. I would think that same line of reasoning applies to NFHS, even though only the NCAA spells it out.

I understand why you feel that way, but for this discussion I am not talking about the NCAA rule. Even at the NCAA level, it has got to be pretty obvious a player is doing that. The NF has not addressed this kind of action (at least in the casebook they have not). I have a hard time trying to translate NCAA rulings to NF games or rules.

Peace

I would be in big trouble if I tried to apply most NCAA rulings to HS. But I think I understand the logic the NCAA is trying to use in this case, which is the game is meant to be played with the hands, not with the legs. It was just giving an example of using the legs without actually "striking" the ball. I would think the NF would be using this same logic as well. Now we're back to the well-worn discussion of just because a set of rules does not specifically outlaw an act, does that mean it is actually allowing it? It would be interesting to get an opinion from the NF - anyone have a direct line to Mary Struckoff? From a practical standpoint, I'm not sure I've ever actually seen this situation happen, because usually the player on the ground is trying to grab the ball with their hands as well, and not just trying to hold on with only their legs. So, like you said, it would have to be real obvious what's happening to make that call.

The holding the ball play is pretty rare, but the one you will see is when the ball is loose and the player is on the floor and "pulls" the ball in with their foot or leg.

To me this is clearly intentionally "striking", again contacting the ball with the leg is much better.

[Edited by blindzebra on Apr 22nd, 2005 at 04:51 PM]

I will never assume the NCAA and the NF want the exact same application when the NF says nothing about it. Also remember the NF just changed their rule a little on this issue. This could be something that just was overlooked. It is one thing if I apply the rule, but that might not be what others think the ruling is. I would feel more comfortable if the NF had a ruling that I could refer to that was consistent with the NCAA. I cannot tell a coach or an assignor, "The NCAA Rules state......" That will not fly with the people I work for.

Peace

And I would never say the same as well. It even bugs me to see an official wear a CCA jacket at a HS game, much less try to explain a call by using NCAA rules. I was just trying to point out that this idea of using the legs seems to lean a little more towards the "basics" of the game of basketball, like dribbling, passing, and shooting, which is the same between the NCAA and NF, rather than issues of shot clocks, number of time-outs, and those types of items that are different between the organizations. Like I said, I'm not sure I've ever seen that exact situation, but I would be interested in finding out if that's the intention of the NF as well.

Dittos

That drives me crazy when I see guys do that.

Peace

It even bugs me to see an official wear a CCA jacket at a HS game... [/B][/QUOTE]
__________________________________________________ _________
I plead stupidity here. Tell me what CCA stands for. I'm sure it isn't "Can't Call Anything!" Inquiring minds want to know.

__________________________________________________ _________
I plead stupidity here. Tell me what CCA stands for. I'm sure it isn't "Can't Call Anything!" Inquiring minds want to know. [/B][/QUOTE]

It may since IAABO means "I am a blind official".

Collegiate Commissioners Association

It may since IAABO means "I am a blind official". [/B][/QUOTE]

These are the jackets required when working college games.

Peace

For argument sake, one could potentially call a technical foul in NFHS if a player were to deliberately hold the ball between his/her legs. The officials have the power to enforce anything that's not clearly outlined in the rulebook.

The act of squeezing the ball between the legs is unsporting and not part of the game.

You are right, just for argument sake. If someone did that, it would be one of the dumbest things I would see an official call. We could do a lot of things, does not make it right or make any sense.

Peace

I did see a young kid hold it between his calves and jump once. That made the situation pretty easy,

Travel? Not too shabby, as the rule states "while holding the ball," but doesn't specify where/how the ball is being held.

Seriously, though, if someone holds the ball between their legs, I'm calling a kick ball violation. If someone asks, I'd tell them that basketball is played with the hands, not the legs, and if anyone presses further, my reference is 2-3.

Also, thanks everyone for pointing out that the offense can have a kicked ball called on them. I got screamed at quite a bit over this a few years back - by my co-workers, nonetheless - and love to see people correct the myth.

__________________________________________________ _________

I'm with you MD. Just remind them that this is basketball, not soccer.

If someone is holding the ball between their legs, they must have a lot of time on their hands or the defense is real slow because that is a steal just waiting to happen.