Yes, I am writing a paper about girl's basketball in Michigan. I was wondering, now that both girl's and boy's basketball will be playing in the same season, can a referee only ref one game per night, or can the referee as many as they want?

At some of the small schools, people may do boys/girls DHs. And sometimes, they do frosh boys/girls DHs. It really depends on what the board of officials and the scholastic assn. want to do. [VT]

I don't want to be a nit-picker here, but actually, the seasons have not been switched yet.

The Supreme Court is to decide by month's end if they want to hear the case. If they don't, then it's expected that seasons will change for 05-06.

The MHSAA hs two season setups in place for 05-06 - The current setup and the setup required should the Surpreme Court decide not to hear the case (or should it eventually rule against the MHSAA).

#

With that said, different conferences are going to do different things should the seasons realign. Some conferences might play games on Saturdays, others might have boys and girls play opposite. The schools, through their conferences have the flexibility to do what they think suits them best.

Under the old arrangement, did refs ever work more than one game a night?

Well, I can speak from MI experience.

It is common to work multiple games in one day, typically a ref could work a city V game or a frosh game @4:00 then hit a V game @ 7:00 in the burbs or perhaps a MS game then hit a V game.

Yes, it is true that the MHSAA is awaiting the Supreme Court response but informed sources are advising not to hold out much hope for a positive answer. It will be likely that next season will see more refs working 2 games a night to just accomodate the need for game coverage. The conferences will decide what format they will implement on an individual basis.

However, it is unlikely that the public schools will play games on Saturday due to the prohibitive cost for supervision and custodial staffing needs. The early surveys suggest that Girls and Boys will play on the same nights; that is, Girls home and Boys away or Varsity teams play at home while the JV teams play away. The reality is that some schools will be forced to drop the Frosh programs due to coaching or facility limitations as well.

Juulie,
Outside of the big metropolitan areas (Detroit, Grand Rapids, other large areas), usually one game is worked per day.

Just got a fax from the MHSAA.
"The MHSAA has been notified that April 29h has been set as a date the US Supreme Court will conduct a conference regarding it's request to consider an appeal of the lower court rulings in the sports seasons litigation"
"It is likely that the Supreme Court will notify the MHSAA on May 2nd whether or not it will take the case"

What is the big deal?
 

Why is it difficult to play games on different nights or to get a different set of officials for each game?

Unless conferences are playing 50 games, can they not play games on specific nights? The biggest conferences might have 10-12 teams. The conference games are usually set on very specific nights. For example, Tuesday and Friday might be conference nights. Then Saturday is a typical non-conference night, which everyone does not always play. Now that is the boy's side. The girl's play basketball games usually on Monday, Wednesday and Thursdays. Some will play on Fridays and Saturdays as well. It has become popular to play Saturday afternoon games on the girl's side. Not only does it make it easy for the officials to work both a Girl's game and a Boy's game in the same day, but it also takes allows the crowds to support both if they choose to.

In my state teams are only allowed to play at the most 20 regular season games outside of tournaments or shootouts. At the most teams can only participate in 3 tournaments during the season. Unless a team goes deep into the playoffs, they will almost never play more than 30 games total.

It is not completely unusual that a school's program will only play once a week. Or the games are played on the weekends where more officials are available to work as a rule. I guess I am not understanding why this is such a difficult dilemma? I was also under the impression that Michigan does not work much 3 Person either. What is the problem? Why would it be so difficult to get enough officials to work a single varsity game?

Peace

Re: What is the big deal?
 

To dispel one impression, in Michigan, 3-man is used for most Varsity contests during the regular season.

There are many conferences that have 20+ teams. Basketball is HUGE in Michigan. Michigan 's total of 128,752 female participants rank only behind Texas , California and New York , the nation's top three states in total population and in females 14-17 years of age according to the U.S. Census Bureau.

There are 763 total high schools and 826 junior high middle schools in the MHSAA (as of Jan. 1, 2005)....for the math deficiendo's that's 1,589 teams which translates into 1,589 weekly games (assuming two nights per week). The 2003-04 girls participation total was a Michigan record for the second straight year, and the overall and boys participation figures were their second highest ever.



Further, many refs only work one night per week or refuse to work girls' games.

Yes, this can be and is a dilemma.

Re: Re: What is the big deal?
 

Still doesn't seem to be any more a dilemma in MI as it does in say IN or IL.

I worked in MI for one year and never worked more than one game in a night, of course that was in the 98/99 season.

Re: Re: What is the big deal?
 

Illinois has over 800 High Schools (I do not have the exact number). In many school districts there are multiple JH compared for just one HS. I am not sure why this is any more of an issue than in my state or other places that have been playing both boy's and girl's basketball in the same season for years. Not sure why this would be a problem just in Michigan.

The issue is not the amount of players playing; the issue is the amount of games and coverage of those games. Basketball is huge here as well. Our state gives each class and genders their individual weekend to play their Championships. These games get covered. The main problem we have is officials are not as willing to work girl's basketball. The numbers are not the cause of that, the willingness to work girl's basketball is. Not much different than those that work baseball and softball. There are just people that have a preference and that is the way it is going to be.

Peace

It's more of an issue because previously the girls played in the fall and the boys played in the winter. Now there will be twice as many games to work in the winter with the same amount of officials. That's why it's an issue.

DUH!

What associations allow officials to "turn down" games?
AAR

Some conferences will want to play JV/V girls at one site and JV/V boys at the opposite site. When that happens, coaches are going to scream that the assignors are sending the better officials to the boys doubleheader. Mark my words, it will happen.

All this I am hearing is very strange to me. Where I come from it is the status quo that on tuesday and friday nights there are high school games in which one set of three officials referee a girls varsity game followed right after by a boys varsity game.

After hearing all this I now understand why officials are considered better in most other parts of the country than here in Tennessee. It is because we do a girls game and then a boys game, which are 2 totally different types of ball being played and it is so hard to be consistent when you have to pretty much change the way you officiate girls and boys.

Can we send the MHSAA a fax about their poor use of grammar?

Everyone in the country has to deal with the same thing. It should not be anymore of a problem for them as it is for everyone else.

DUUUUHHHHH!!!

Peace

Michigan must have a real shortage of officials, sounds like they are thinking of running the same way just about every other state does so a major shortage of officials could be the only reason they would have such a problem with that format.

From what I have been hearing in my part of Michigan, boys and girls games will be on different nights, say boys on Tuesday and Friday, girls on Monday and Thursday, just an example. Games are done with 2 officials. I have also heard from a few athletic directors and game assignors that are asking varsity refs if they also wanted to do the JV game (most schools don't have a frosh team, due to size). In my opinion, this is hurting the younger officials by taking many JV games that would normally be given to younger officials. I would like to see 3 man crews work both games, which would give valuable experience to the third man, who hopefully would be a younger official. On another note, most assignors are planning for the worst and preparing to sign officials to games if Michigan returns to its girls in the fall and boys in the winter schedule.

My two cents

They only stagger the seasons by a week here in VT. It used to be Boys t/f, Girls m/th, but then that was deemd unfair. [Hockey was W/Sat] Then some of the larger schools added frosh teams. So, there are games going on 6 nights a week. Or 5 nights and Saturday morning/afternoon to be more precise. The only strain on officials seems to occur with postponements due to weather. About 2/3 of the games at the varsity level are 3 man. JV has rare 3 man crews.

I guess my advice would be to recruit like crazy.

In Oklahoma we've been doing two varsity games a night (girls at 6:30, followed by boys)for many many years.

Wrong again. Virginia also had girls basketball in the fall and have now switched to the winter, so everyone in the country has not had "to deal with the same thing." It's a huge change for both states.

What you can't comprehende is that they've never had to deal with boys and girls playing during the same season. THEREFORE, THEY DON'T HAVE ENOUGH OFFIICALS TO SEND A SEPARATE CREW TO EVERY GAME. THAT'S WHY IT'S A PROBLEM!

Why is it that you have so much trouble understanding the simplest things?

http://pages.prodigy.net/hauxfan/Signs/Group_9/11.gif


Why is everyone so crabby?

I had seafood for dinner. :)

Groan....

Good for them. My comment was very general, not really specific. I knew there was another state that played games in the fall and changed. It is not a problem for most states in the country. I do not see Michigan or Virginia as special places with special problems that cannot overcome working both girl's and boy's basketball in the very same season.

The bottom line Tony, I am not asking you anything. I am asking those that live in Michigan. The last time I checked you do not live in Michigan. You do not even live in the Midwest. I have not read anything that states they do not have enough officials to work games. Other than assumptions and fears, nothing has been said that illustrates the lack of numbers to cover games. I am also asking because unless someone has some numbers that just jump out at you, not sure they are in any different position than most states. It seems to work in many other states, not sure what is going on in Michigan that is preventing them from doing the same thing.

Are we talking about fear or a reality? This is not something I am asking you at all Tony. <a href='http://www.smileycentral.com/?partner=ZSzeb008_ZSzeb008' target='_blank'><img src='http://smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/36/36_19_4.gif' alt='Rolling Eyes' border=0></a>

Peace

girls season
 

i officate in michigan primarily mid-eastern area around saginaw/bay city and the thumb area...we are being told that unless the courts reverse their decision that the season for the girls will change to match the boys...most assigners and athletic directors are preparing for both scenarios...problems arise with the different conferences scheduling the games on different days and times where non-league crossover games causing the most problems...many smaller schools will have problems with practice times due to 4 games a week seeing that they only have 1 gym...some are scheduling girls/boys contests the same day and many believe that the girls will suffer in crowd participation...change never comes easy and all of the afore mentioned problems can be corrected but at what cost...an often unmentioned problem will be getting good table help with 4 games a week versus 2 games a week. i look forward to the increased games on my scedule and the possibily of moving up the ladder.

I officiate in northern VA and we made the change a couple of years ago and believe it or not, the world did not come to an end when we changed. VA uses the A, AA, and AAA classifications based on school enrollment. Only the A & AA girls played in the Fall. We had a number of officials that chose not to work the "Fall Season" for one reason or another. I always worked it because it only involved 1, maybe 2 games a week.

About 4-5 years ago, my association used a Girls Commissioner and a Boys Commissioner (we now have one). I always thought this was a royal PITA! The rule was if you were "designated" as a boys official, you had to work at least 4 games on the girls side, and vice versa, in order to get district playoff games. It always amazed me that some officials would give up the opportunity to officate in the distric tournament by refusing to work girls games. We have games 4-5 nights a week and it is usually the boys F/JV/V at one school and the girls at the other school. About 25% of the time, we have BV/GV doubleheadrs. My varsity schedule is mostly girls, and I don't mind a bit. The pay is the same (3-whistle on all varsity) and at my age (I'll be 62 next month) it is easier for me to get up and down the court with the ladies -- and that is in no way a put-down of the ladies, just reality. I also find in most cases that the players and coaches are easier to deal with.

Yup, everyone should follow the Chuck Elias mellowing-out method:
http://www.comedy-zone.net/pictures/.../animal020.jpg

Okay Jeff, you've got it all figured out, even though you're not in Michigan. Good job.

But if you'll look, you'll see that there are MI officials here who are pointing out what the problems are.

[Edited by BktBallRef on Apr 20th, 2005 at 10:19 AM]

In the western U.P., it appears that newer/younger (1st,2nd year) officials are being assigned varsity girls' games, while more experienced officials are being assigned boys' varsity games and are having fewer assignments to girls' varsity.
mick

That's what I was referring to before, mick. Eventually, the girls' coaches will figure this out and they'll complain to ADs, conference comissioners, and assignors. Mark my words, it will happen.

The only feasible solution that we found was to play a VG/VB doubleheader and send one crew to work both games. Quite honestly, two games on Tuesday and Thursday is a lot less taxing on officials than one game played nightly over a 4 day period. It's also better travel wise and is less expensive for the schools with regard to overhead.

Tony,
Agreeing here....
This is, in part, what I offered last October to the powers that be.
mick
<font color = blue><B><I>
"I would rather think that any members of Superior Officials Association will take, if possible, the games that they are offered with no regard to gender. Our allegiance should be to the ideals of the game and not necessarily to the quality of contestants.

Obviously some of our local officials will have NCAA conflicts in such a scenario. Many others will find a four night per week schedule either personally, professionally or physically challenging....

Alternatively, with the varying skill levels of officials, it may be worth considering Varsity games (both Boys and Girls) be held at one site while lower level games be held at another. Then, the more experienced officials will be available for the varsity contests regardless of gender. One school could host the varsity games while the other hosts sub-varsity games. With a Varsity/Junior Varsity-Two site scenario, the V/JV games could be held two nights per week, which may allow Middle School/Freshmen games to be held on two other nights. Of course, practice schedules need to be considered, but just taking into consideration the importance of having qualified officials at Varsity games and eliminating the need for any official to be gender specific, administrating Double-Varsity evenings could eliminate gender bias. Of course, the schools and conferences will have their specific parameters as to their particular priorities....


Whether running a V/JV double or a Girls'/Boys' double, using three-official mechanics is undoubtedly the best way to employ the use of the available of officials. The quality of officiating can easily be maintained for the two games, because of the reduced fatigue on any given official. The opportunity of adding a lesser experienced official to work on a crew including two established Varsity officials would add to the number and quality of officials throughout the area. There may be a certain training necessary to bring newer officials up to speed, but Superior Officials Association should be able to bring all of its members up to speed on current mechanics within a few hours of training.
On this note, 3-official crews would exhibit better continuity and consistency, if the crews were maintained (minimally) throughout a given season for Varsity contests, as opposed to the game-by-game, random selection process of pick and choose to put a crew on the floor. Ideally, each crew would have one contact person for the schools or assignors, and each crew would be responsible for putting a full crew on the floor of every contracted game. Through the proper use of pre-gaming, post-gaming, and other meetings, as necessary, a proper, productive and consistent product will be put on the floors."</font></B></I>

I guess I want to ask this of the folks from Virginia: Did the number of officials grow when the girls season moved to coincide with the boys?

This I want to ask of the Michigan folks: Are the number of officials that work both seasons, as opposed to one of the season proportionally high or what? I'm still having a little trouble grasping the shortage issue here.

That is want I am thinking as well. I know officials that can only work one sport because their families and job have a problem with so much time away. If the girl's season was normally in the fall, I am sure some football officials were not available to work. If you combine the seasons, then not many has to worry about another sport (popular sport) to get in the way. It would seem to me the numbers would grow.

Peace

In my opinion, there is a "perceived" shortage of officials, but not a "real" shortage of officials.

I know good officials with fewer games scheduled for the upcoming dual-season.
mick

mick, you are completely on top of it. They would be wise to heed your words.

Ref Ump, I'll let those guys address your questions but I'll point out what I've gathered from conversations with officials from both states.

It's not that there are fewer officials. It's that there are more games to cover during the same period of time that need to be officiated. Let's say that a local association had 50 games on a given night with a staff 125 officials, 100 of whom are working. But now you add 50 more games. You either have to:

1- add more officials if you want to continue playing on the same that you have in the past,

2- play doubleheaders on the same nights,

3- play games on different nights.

In either 2 or 3, the existing staff is going to work more games during a week. The logistics of working out scheduling and assigning is the nightmare. Games will be covered. But it's the headaches of working everything out that's facing these folks.

Actually that is what it seems like to me.

Mick, does the state of Michigan have a uniformed training program that deals with 3 Person mechanics? My state requires that all officials attend camps every 3 years to become eligible for license purposes. It is required that those wanting to work post season attend a 6 hour clinic (floor and classroom) in order to be eligible to work the post season. If officials do not attend those clinics, they cannot work the post season at all.

This program was put in around the time our state went to 3 Person for all playoff games (in 97-98 season). Does your state have a similar program in place? I can tell you it really helped officials here learn 3 Person mechanics in the last few years.

Peace

Rut,

Each "Approved" Basketball Association has an MHSAA certified trainer on it's roster, but there is no state mandated training that is required. Training schedules are required to be submitted to the state, but participation is not necessary, except for personal development on an individual level.
All the trainers are told the same thing, that is to follow the NFHS guidelines. Individually, each Trainer will teach three-official mechanics based upon the officials manual, personal experience, training and education.

Until a couple years ago, the MHSAA provided a limited "pre-tournament" training clinic for officials working the Quarterfinal, Semifinal and Final games because three officials were employed at that level only. Now, that clinic has been deemed unecessary because three-official mechanics is quite common, instead of the exception, in the Lower Peninsula.
The Regional Tournament (winners to quarterfinal) now use 3-whistles. Mandatory training is absent; experience is shown to be adequate.
mick

Thanks Mick for you answer.
 

Now I have a question for those states that work both girl's and boy's varsity games in the same night.

Do the officials just accept this procedure to work two varsity games in one night? Or is this something that officials complain about much like pay or locker room accommodations, but these things never change?

Where I live there are some conferences that schedule officials to work the JV game and then the Varsity game in one night. Most of the time if we can get out of the JV game, we do. I personally think it affects our ability to work the varsity game, because we are more tired then we would be normally. We work it if we have to, but we do not always like it.

Peace

Re: Thanks Mick for you answer.
 

I have never heard any complaints from my fellow officials. This is the way that it's always been and none of us know any better. In Oklahoma every team is in the post season tournament. We have Districts, Areas, Regionals, and State. Even through Regionals officials will still work two games per night. During the state tournament we only work one game.

In GA, GV and BV play on the same night, with the GV starting at 6 and the BV staring at 7:30. We always work 3 man and do both games. If the teams are close to one another, there will also be two JV games at the same site. A crew of two whistles work both of those games.

No one has brought up the idea of only working one game. I assume because only working one would cut the pay in half and we do seem to have a shortage of officials (most who call in my HS group also work college).

Re: Re: Thanks Mick for you answer.
 

That is what I kind of figured. Officials around here would have a problem with that (the area I currently live) because they are not used to that kind of procedure. Where I started officiating, it was not totally uncommon to work two games in one night, but officials did what they could to not work both games. We would bring what we called a "runner" to work the JV game and the varsity officials would either alternate quarters or halves. Sometimes officials would just get two officials to work the JV game and pay the "runners" out of what the school paid the assigning official. It is all about what you are used to I guess.

Peace

Speaking only for my association in Northern VA, it did not make much of an impact at all. Being in the DC area, we have a fair amount of military/government people and we do experience a lot of turnover. In my 12 years with the association, I have seen some of the officials (particularly military) come and go 2-3 times. As I mentioned earlier, a lot of our officials did not work "fall ball" before the change. I did work that season.

Did you have any pasta with the seafood?

Seafood and pasta provide a nice combination of taste for an inquisitive palette.

This week, the Chuck Elias method consists of getting a small plate of salmon and perhaps some fettucini alfredo from the lunch buffet and then taking a few laps in the adults only pool, while the kids splash away in the kids pool, completely out of earshot.

51 degrees in NYC this morning, huh? Gee, that's a shame. :(

The water between St. John's and St. Thomas is an unbelievably beautiful shade of blue, BTW.

[Edited by ChuckElias on Apr 21st, 2005 at 08:37 AM]

Attaboy, Chuck!

Git U.P. temperature was 28.7F with a beautiful, sparkly, glistening silver rime.

Yes.

Shrimp fettucini.

It was divine.

:)