A buddy of mine says there is no difference.

Thanks in advance....


Greg

A common misconception is that a charge = a player control
foul and each are commonly called an offensive
foul. But a player control foul is any common foul
committed by the player in possesion of the ball, which
could be a charge, and there is nothing in the rule book
covering a so-called "offensive foul". The player with the
ball or a defensive player or a player on offense can commit
a charge, or any of the other common fouls. On a player
control foul we don't shoot free throws for the bonus so
this is more than just a technicality. But it does count as
both a team foul towards the bonus and a personal foul on
the player. I hope this helps!

Dan, I apologize. I'm very thickheaded. I didn't follow your reply. Will you try again? The charging call I'm speaking of is when A has the ball and runs into B who has established position. Can we look at this situation and compare charging vs player control foul?

Thanks for your patience.

Greg

I don't officiate by NCAA rules but I don't believe there is a difference in the terminology. I think they both mean the same thing. The player in possession of the ball comitted a foul.

The difference between HS and men's NCAA ball is when a player in possession of the ball has commited a player-control foul. In HS, an airborne shooter who has released the shot and not returned to the floor can commit a player-control foul. In NCAA college, once the shot is out of the shooter's hand, he cannot commit a player-control foul.

The major difference is this then. If A1 shoots and the ball leaves his hand and he then crashes into B1, HS rules won't count the shot (Player Control Foul) but NCAA men's rules will.

I hope I'm explaining this correctly. My terminology may not be exactly correct but I hope you get the idea.

Greg, being the president of the thickheaded club
I understand what you're going thu so I'll try again :)
The action you describe is a player control foul.
The signal for this is hand behind the head (you've seen it,
no?) In my original message I said it's a common
misconception that a charge is the same thing as a player
control foul (I used the equal sign). I also said that
some folks call this an offensive foul, but there's
nothing in the rules about an "offensive foul". So here's
the deal: there are 3 types of players on the floor:
defense, offense and the player in control of the ball.
(The rules tell us how to define each of these but don't
worry about how for now.) Any of these players can commit
a common foul (charge, block, hold, push). If the foul
is commited by the player with the ball then we have a
player control (PC) foul. This is a special case because
we don't shoot free throws for the PC if the defense is
in the bonus (don't ask why, it's just that way). But, like
any other common foul, the PC counts as a foul towards the
bonus and as a personal foul towards disqualification.

So, in your case the player with the ball has commited a
player control foul *because* he charged. But, he could
have just as easily (but more rarely) blocked or
held or pushed. In fact, sometimes you'll see the dribbler
clear out with his arm as he dribbles around a player.
This is a PC becase he pushed. But in either case the foul
is a player control foul. Again we care because there are
no bonus free throws on a PC.

Dan and Mike, you guys are awesome. Thanks so much. Just found this forum today and I really appreciate your time.

Take Care,

Greg

Dan,
I am not clear on why you believe that a defensive player can commit a charging foul. On reading NFHS rules, it is clear that a defender may not commit charging, even though the rules do not make an explicit statement of that fact. The only reference to charging anywhere in the rules (4-2-2 (a-d) and 10-6 (1 & 2)) refer to a player with the ball or a player who has shot and momentum carried him into defender. This is distinguished from pushing in 10-6-1, which happens when the defender runs into an offensive player in control of the ball. Nowhere is charging referenced with respect to any defender committing the foul, nor is that possibility suggested by the rules. While the momentum rule suggests there may be a subtle case in which a charging foul may not be player control (in the reference to momentum it does not say airborne shooter), in all other cases, a charge would be player control.

Technically speaking, you can have player control fouls that are not charges where the contact is not with the torso (an elbow to the face would qualify I guess). But any illegal contact with the torso by the player in control of the ball is charging. So the terms are fairly interchangeable in NFHS. The only difference between NCAA and NF that I know of is the airborne shooter rule which Mike referenced. Since this changes when you can call a PC foul, it may lead to more instances where charging is not PC - but I'd have to see an NCAA rule book to know whether they call a foul after release a charge. And I am not aware of a different NCAA definition of charging that allows a defensive player to commit this foul.

NCAA Definition
 

Greg,

<b>Rule 4-8 Charging</b>
Art.1 Charging is illegal personal contact by pushing or moving into an opponents torso.


So, if you charge with control of the ball, it is a player control foul.
If you charge without the ball, it is a common, intentional, or flagrant foul.
Ultimately, charging may be the same thing, only different.

mick

Since I don't have my book here with me I can't argue this
subtle point but I will say that the push & charge signal
are the same. I realize this doesn't address what you're
saying but in practice there's in fact no difference. I'll
get back to you after I look at the book. As for your
second pont, I did give a specific example of a PC that is
*not* a charge, but a push. Another case is the almost
unseen ilegal screen by the ball handler, which might be
a block or maybe hold. So I think I've shown how a PC
could be something other than a charge (the big torso-to-
torso bodies crashing to the floor that we all know & love)
A case of a charge that is *not* PC is the pass & crash.
Finally, the difference in the airborne player rules between
HS, NCAA men & NCAA women does kinda complicate things
but I don't think it has all that much to do with the
original question ("Is there a difference between a PC
and a charge").

Good discussion!

I don't see your example as anything but a charge. Rule 4-7-2 defines charging. Parts a-d give examples of situations that are charging.

d. The player with the ball may not push the torso of the guard to gain an advantage to pass, shoot or dribble.

Your push-off, when done by a player with the ball, is a charge by rule and PC.

I don't see how finding examples of a PC that is a charge
means that a PC is by definition a charge, or vice versa.
Because they are not. There are examples of PC fouls that
are not charges and there are charges that are not PCs.

Thanks for this... it saves me asking about a couple of plays I saw today in the Gonzaga-Virginia game, which I was unsure about. Now instead of asking, I can nod knowingly, or better yet, correct someone else when they mention it!! Just another reason to stay on this web...

Re: NCAA Definition
 

OK, with that definition, that brings me to a question...
A1 has the ball dribbling toward the basket. A2 has set up a screen for B1 who is closely guarding A1, B1 doesn't see the screen and plows right into him (see this all the time). Acc. to the above mentioned rule, that would be illegal contact by moving into an opponents torso. So, do you call it or is it a no-call

--Denny

dhodges
Have to look at advantage/disadvantage on that call or no call, as well as severity of the contact. If B1 plows over A2 and gains a defensive advantage, should be a pushing foul in NFHS and perhaps a charge in NCAA (not clear as to context in NCAA rule that Mick gave). If A2 manages to prevent B1 from getting through, then B1 gained no advantage, so you wouldn't call it unless he has a particularly hard foul that you feel needs to be called. Incidental contact.

Dan,
I have already agreed that not all PCs are charges, and not all charges are PCs, especially in the NCAA. All I was addressing was 1) your statement that defenders can commit charging (they cannot, at least in NF) and 2) your example of a non-charge player control foul. To commit a charge, you must either have the ball or have recently released the ball with momentum carrying you into the defender, so defenders and offensive players moving off the ball cannot commit a charge. However, to be clear, grabbing with the off hand would be a hold and PC but not a charge, and pushing or striking the other player other than in the torso is also not a charge but is PC. By NF rules, 99% of calls that are defined as charging are also PC, and probably over 95% of what is called as PC is a charge. So I was merely trying to show why these terms are used so interchangeably, and in most cases, correctly so.

easy rule of thumb
 

If a player has the ball and commits a foul, it is a player control foul. If a player without the ball pushes or crashes through a player of the other team, it is a pushing foul.

If a player who has had the ball, then passes the ball off just prior to crashing into a player of the other team and fouling, commits a "pushing foul" this would be considered a charging foul. (NFHS and Womens NCAA) (For Men's NCAA, releasing the ball on a try prior to crashing into defender would fall into this category also.)

If a player commits a PC foul, there can be no free throws for the foul. If a player commits a charging foul, there can be free throws if the other team is in the bonus.

Do not call a charge on the defense! The criteria is the same as a push, so use the PUSH when reporting to the table.

This discussion is a good example of why, we as officials, must use the rule book language in disscusing rules with layman.

As was noted earlier the term "offensive foul" is used is when describing fouls in games being played under NCAA, NFHS, or FIBA rules. There is no such thing as an "offensive foul" in these rule codes. An "offensive foul" is found in only the NBA and WNBA rule codes.

NFHS and NCAA Women's rules state that a "player control foul" is defined as a common foul committed by a player in control of the ball or by an airborne player and NCAA Men's rules state that "player control foul" is a common foul committed by a player in control of the ball. The penalty for a player control foul under all three codes is the same.

Player control fouls do not exist in FIBA rules. FIBA treats all personal fouls committed by a player whose team has control of the ball the same as the NCAA and NFHS does player control fouls.

As far as a charging foul is concerned both NCAA and NFHS rules are literally the same, the only difference being that the word "caused" comes immediately after the word "contact". Therefore, there is no difference in charging under NCAA and NFHS rules.

And as far as deciding when to call a foul a charge or a push, the NCAA and NFHS rule books do not give us any direction in this regard but the FIBA rule book does. FIBA actually defines pushing as: personal contact with any part of the body that takes place when a player forcibly moves or attempts to move an opposing player who has or does not have control of the ball.

I do not know if this helped clear up this discussion but it is very important to talk in rule book language and not layman terms. By doing that it will reduce misunderstanding among the people discussing the play as well as confuse coaches because we all know how well versed in the rules they are.

Well, I hear you saying it but I don't see anywhere
that it's written this way. Here are the NFHS
rules, NCAA men/women similar except for the airborne
shooter:


4-7-2
...Charging is illegal personal contact caused by pushing
or moving into an opponent's torso.


Parts a, b, c & d tells us what this means with respect to
the player in control of the ball & those defending him.
It does not imply a charge is only committed by the
dribbler and it certainly says nothing about players who
just released the ball.


4-19-6
...A player control foul is a common foul committed by a
player while he/she is in control of the ball or by an
airborne shooter

(this last part differs for NCAA men)


4-19-2
...A common foul is a personal foul which is neither
flagrant, nor intentional nor committed against a player
trying or tapping for a field goal nor a part of a
double or multiple foul.

I agree with Dan. Although the plays cited in the rulebook are committed by the offense, there's nothing that says a charge has to be committed by an offensive player. If a defensive player runs through a screener, he has charged. Whether you call it a push or a charge, it's the same thing. It's simply semantics.

Dan,
4-7-2 a-d is very relevant. Parts a-d give 4 examples of charging, each of which involve a player with the ball causing the illegal contact with the torso. This seems a compelling reason to believe that the defense pushes, the player with the ball charges. But there is more, as I stated in my first post. Please refer to my second reference, 10-6-1, on contact. This is the only other place in the rules where charging is mentioned (I have an electronic version of the rules and used the "find" feature, so trust me on this). In 10-6-1, charging is mentioned once. I will quote the last two sentences:

"It is a form of pushing when the player holding the ball is contacted by a defensive player who approaches from behind. Contact that is caused by the momentum of a player who has thrown for goal is a form of charging."

We have a definition followed by 4 examples involving a player with the ball that are charging (and no examples of charging without the ball). We have a statement that a defensive player running into the player with the ball commits a push (not a charge) and then a clarification that the term charging also extends to the player who released the ball on a try and subsequently made illegal contact due to momentum (giving a specific exception to the general rule that charging applies only to a player with the ball). How can you come up with a different interpretation of these sections? Where do you find any rule or case implying that a defensive player can charge, or an offensive player off the ball for that matter?

Re: Re: NCAA Definition
 

I found a pertinent section under NF rules - I am sure NCAA has the same but don't have those rules. Knew it was there but missed it the first time.

10-6-3
In cases of screens outside the visual field, the opponent may make inadvertent contact with the screener and if the opponent is running rapidly, the contact may be severe. Such a case is to be ruled as incidental contact provided the opponent stops or attempts to stop on contact and moves around the screen, and provided the screener is not displaced if he or she has the ball.

So much of what you see that is hard contact may just be incidental contact.

Nah, you're just reading too much into it. Take a look
at your passage from 10-6-1 with my emphasis included:

"It is a form of pushing when the player holding the ball is contacted by a defensive player who approaches from behind. Contact that is caused by the momentum of a player who has thrown for goal is a form of charging."

10-6-1 doesn't define the only way to push, it gives one
example. It doesn't define the only way to charge,
it just gives an example. But I have even more compelling
evidence: if Tony & I agree, you can take it to the
bank! :)

me, too
 

All we have to do to understand that a charge can be a foul, other than player control, is to look at the foul signals.

NFHS: #10 Pushing or charging and NCAA: #20 Pushing or charging are identical.

NFHS: #12 Player control and NCVAA: #22 are identical

If charging was only PC then it wouldn't be the same signal as Pushing; it would be the same signal as Player control.

mick

Charge/PC foul
 

You guys below me got it right. Basic rule of thumb is if he/she has the ball, it's PC, if not, it's a push. The "OFFENSIVE FOUL" stuff that everyone is getting confused by is what we hear on TV from the commentators of NBA games. In the NBA, CBA as well as Pro-Am leagues that use NBA rules, an offensive foul is ANY foul that occurs by the offense. This could be a foul AWAY from the ball as well. No shots and here we go the other way. Also, in the NBA, a PC foul results in NO BASKET!!( Just like HS.)Dosen't matter when he releases it!! Happy Officiating!!

You have to be careful. A player with the ball CAN commit a foul which would not be a player control foul. The player can commit an intentional or flagrant personal foul or a technical foul.

Now what are some examples of this? I can't see anyone who has the ball commiting anything other than a PC... unless the commit a T by there language or throwing the ball at someone to injure them...

--Denny

Here's one. One of my partners called it in a game and in our post game eval we all thought our supervisor was gonna kiss him he was so excited. A1 dribbling the ball and being very closely guarded (short of contact) by B1. A1 takes his right arm(he's dribbling with his left) and shoves B1 away from him (like a hook but with much more force). It was not a hook or a punch, A1 was clearing space in a very forceful manner. B1 was shoved to the ground (flop?!? some might argue yes). My partner immediately blew his whistle and signalled an intentional foul. Of course Coach A was initially very excited. My partner explained to the coach that the call was an intentional personal foul and why he ruled it as such and then we shot two shots and gave B the ball at the spot. The coach was fine with the explanation (the call happened in front of his bench) but boy was he upset with his player for commiting such a stupid foul. Our supervisor told us that the act was too severe just to call it a PC and move on and said he absolutely agreed with the call. The only other alternative he said would have been to rule the act a punch which constitutes fighting and eject the player.

here's another
 

Airborne shooter smashes defender in the chops, or rakes his face, on the way down.
mick

Didn't think of that...thanks mick.

--Denny

Re: here's another
 

I saw that happen, and it worked! including a bloody nose. I tossed the girl. Also tossed another player in that game who undercut an airborne rebounder, with the clear intention of injury. Coach went postal about both DQs; it was easy to see where the girls got their attitude!

Were you ready to toss the Coach? :)

What is the definition of a common foul?

What is the definition of a player control foul?

What is blocking?

What is charging?

A player control foul is a COMMON FOUL committed by a player while he/she is in control of a the ball (NCAA Men's/Women's and NFHS) or by an airborne player (NCAA Women's and NFHS). When we officiate we must first determine if a contact foul was committed and if a foul was committed we have to decide the following things:

Was the ball dead or live? Live: personal foul. Dead: technical foul.

If the foul is personal, is the foul a common foul or not a common foul?

If the foul is not a common foul, is the foul a double personal foul, an intentional foul, a flagrant foul, part of a multiple foul, or a foul committed against a player trying or tapping for a field goal (in this case is the foul blocking, charging, hand checking, holding, illegal use of the hands, or pushing?)?

If the foul is a common foul, is the foul blocking, charging, hand checking, holding, illegal use of the hands, or pushing? And then if the foul was committed by a player in control of the ball we then signal a player control foul.

When it comes to common fouls, a player control foul is just the result of one of the six type of fouls common fouls committed by a player in control of the ball.

At one time the prescribed mechanics for signaling and reporting a player control foul was the same as anyother common foul: signal one of the following: blocking, charging, hand checking, holding, illegal use of the hands, or pushing, and follow that with the player control signal. I think that we should go back to this mechanic because it would better communicate to coaches what the player did.

Charging is not the only type of foul that usually ends up as a player control foul. How many times 1) Have we seen the ball handler back the defender down and then use his/her free hand to hook around the defender's waist to hold the defender in place and spin around the defender. 2) Or the ball handler uses his/her free hand or arm to push the defender away. 3) Or the ball handler uses his/her free hand or arm to knock a defender's hand away from attacking the ball.

In 1) you have a holding foul. In 2) you have a pushing foul. And in 3) you have an illegal use of the hands foul. But in all cases the foul is also a player control foul.

To describe a foul as simply a player control foul is not enough when trying to teach a new official, player, or coach the rules. We must read, write, and speak the language of the game. I hate to sould like a lawyer but it is true. I am a structural engineer, and I have to speak in the language of mathematics as well as the dicipline specific language of structrual engineering. We have to do the same in officiating. This protects us from coaches and sports journalists, who like do not know the rules, from twisting our words or misquoting us.

Thanks!!!!!!
 

Thanks so much for that explination!!