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Quote:

Originally posted by ChuckElias

Quote:

Originally posted by mick
I think I'll go with "tough call".

Well, it certainly was a tough call to make because there is no possible way that the umpire could've seen what he said happened!! He guessed! In the bottom of the 9th in a tie game of an LCS, he guessed! That bothers me just as much as missing the call.

Strikes are "guessed". Balls are "guessed". Tags are "guessed". Outs are "guessed". Catches and drops are "guessed". Replays are "guessed".

How do you fix that?
In Baseball - It is what it is.
mick

Quote:

Originally posted by mick
Strikes are "guessed". Balls are "guessed". Tags are "guessed". Outs are "guessed". Catches and drops are "guessed". Replays are "guessed".

All those things are judgments based on what the umpire sees. There is no way that the plate ump saw the ball hit the ground. Zero possibility. It wasn't a judgment, it was a guess.

Call it a guess if you want.

Quote:

Originally posted by ChuckElias

Quote:

Originally posted by mick
Strikes are "guessed". Balls are "guessed". Tags are "guessed". Outs are "guessed". Catches and drops are "guessed". Replays are "guessed".

All those things are judgments based on what the umpire sees. There is no way that the plate ump saw the ball hit the ground. Zero possibility. It wasn't a judgment, it was a guess.

He did not see the ball caught.
He judged the pitch was an uncaught third strike.
He signalled "live ball".
He signalled a strike.
The catcher fell asleep.
Oh, my!

Re: Call it a guess, since that's what it was.

Quote:

Originally posted by mick
He did not see the ball caught.

He therefore has no idea what happened.

Quote:

He judged the pitch was an uncaught third strike.

I won't argue semantics with you, Mick, but I don't see how you can make a judgment with no information.

Quote:

He signalled "live ball".

Nobody except the umpire crew knew that. In fact, now that I think about it, I don't even think the first base ump knew it. I will go watch the replay. But the only person that needed to know it had his back to the umpire.

Quote:

The catcher fell asleep.

The catcher did what he does after every caught third strike that ends an inning. That's not falling asleep.

Re: Re: Call it a guess, since that's what it was.

Quote:

Originally posted by ChuckElias

Quote:

Originally posted by mick
He did not see the ball caught.

He therefore has no idea what happened.

Quote:

He judged the pitch was an uncaught third strike.

I won't argue semantics with you, Mick, but I don't see how you can make a judgment with no information.

Quote:

He signalled "live ball".

Nobody except the umpire crew knew that. In fact, now that I think about it, I don't even think the first base ump knew it. I will go watch the replay. But the only person that needed to know it had his back to the umpire.

Quote:

The catcher fell asleep.

The catcher did what he does after every caught third strike that ends an inning. That's not falling asleep.

Finis.
mick

Listening to the interviews with all the Angels players and with Scioscia, they aren't really too hung up with that play...as Erstad said - "We didn't score enough runs. We shouldn't have put ourselves in a position where that could happen." Whether any of us think it was a bad call or not, sounds like the Angels are ready to go for game 3...

Quote:

Originally posted by rockyroad
Listening to the interviews with all the Angels players and with Scioscia, they aren't really too hung up with that play...

And that shows both class and understanding of the game. I'm not trying to say that plate umpire cost the Angels the game. All I'm saying is that he made a call that he had no business making. We constantly tell guys, "If you don't know, don't guess". The ump just picked a really unfortunate time to make a guess.

Quote:

Originally posted by ChuckElias

Quote:

Originally posted by rockyroad
Listening to the interviews with all the Angels players and with Scioscia, they aren't really too hung up with that play...

And that shows both class and understanding of the game. I'm not trying to say that plate umpire cost the Angels the game. All I'm saying is that he made a call that he had no business making. We constantly tell guys, "If you don't know, don't guess". The ump just picked a really unfortunate time to make a guess.

Pas finis.
In baseball, a call must be made.
Baseball umpires do no have the luxury of no-calling.

Given that the umpire did not see the out, yet the umpire is not allowed to stand there mute with a live ball, or dead ball with the participants running helter-skelter.

A call must be made.

Once a call is made the players should react accordingly, then after the play has ended the appeal process is in place to fix stuff.
If umps don't know the result of a play, they must guess, cuz the players are waiting.

mick

Quote:

Originally posted by ChuckElias

Quote:

Originally posted by rockyroad
Listening to the interviews with all the Angels players and with Scioscia, they aren't really too hung up with that play...

And that shows both class and understanding of the game. I'm not trying to say that plate umpire cost the Angels the game. All I'm saying is that he made a call that he had no business making. We constantly tell guys, "If you don't know, don't guess". The ump just picked a really unfortunate time to make a guess.

Sorry Churck but in baseball its the job of the plate umpire to call::

Ball and strikes

That's his most important job so you can't say he had no business making the call.

Secondly, he did know what happened because as an umpire you can see the ball hit the ground, you can see a short hop etc., especially calling with the big boys.

I'm not a MLB umpire, but I've called college ball and its amazing what you can see with a good catcher etc.,

Finally, if in doubt, signal the swing and look at the actions of the players. The batter took off immediately so that tells you something he saw.

And then you always have the 1st and 3rd base umpires to look at for help. I didn't see it shown on TV, but I'm sure the 3rd base umpire gave a signal.

And then you could see first base umpire moving into the field for the play at first, so he knew it hit the ground also.

Just my take on a crazy play.

Thanks
David

I don't check onto this discussion much, and I didn't see the game last night, but I'm wondering if anyone knows from past situations how this might affect the ump's career. Are MLB umps pros, like in the NBA? Or are they "contractors" like in the NFL? Is every MLB game watched on tape like NBA? Is this guy done for the season? Done forever? Or is it no big deal?

Great sign spotted in the stands during last night's game....obviously being held by an Angels fan still ticked off at the umpire's call t'other night...

Chicago White Sox

Cheating Since 1919

Re: Not all true!

Quote:

Originally posted by David B

Quote:

Originally posted by ChuckElias

Quote:

Originally posted by rockyroad
Listening to the interviews with all the Angels players and with Scioscia, they aren't really too hung up with that play...

And that shows both class and understanding of the game. I'm not trying to say that plate umpire cost the Angels the game. All I'm saying is that he made a call that he had no business making. We constantly tell guys, "If you don't know, don't guess". The ump just picked a really unfortunate time to make a guess.

Sorry Churck but in baseball its the job of the plate umpire to call::

Ball and strikes

That's his most important job so you can't say he had no business making the call.

Secondly, he did know what happened because as an umpire you can see the ball hit the ground, you can see a short hop etc., especially calling with the big boys.

I'm not a MLB umpire, but I've called college ball and its amazing what you can see with a good catcher etc.,

Finally, if in doubt, signal the swing and look at the actions of the players. The batter took off immediately so that tells you something he saw.

If you do college ball then you should know... If in doubt he's out. Why would you key on batter runner? I would trust my catcher (especially at the higher levels) to know whether or not he caught the ball. Rolling it to the pitcher would most probably "sell me" that he caught the ball clean.

And then you always have the 1st and 3rd base umpires to look at for help. I didn't see it shown on TV, but I'm sure the 3rd base umpire gave a signal.

That play is hard to see from the bases. Third base umpire has the righty batter and catchers leg in the way. First base umpire has catchers leg in the way. If replay can be judged as inconclusive I doubt from over 100 feet away you could expect help from your partners in this particular case.

And then you could see first base umpire moving into the field for the play at first, so he knew it hit the ground also.

First base umpire moving easily explained. He has BR running to first and still has a possible call to make. It doesn't necessarily mean he saw the ball hit the dirt.

Just my take on a crazy play.

Thanks
David

Poor communication resulted in a "Three Stooges Episode" breaking out.

Re: Re: Not all true!

Quote:

Originally posted by gordon30307

Quote:

Originally posted by David B

Quote:

Originally posted by ChuckElias

Quote:

Originally posted by rockyroad
Listening to the interviews with all the Angels players and with Scioscia, they aren't really too hung up with that play...

And that shows both class and understanding of the game. I'm not trying to say that plate umpire cost the Angels the game. All I'm saying is that he made a call that he had no business making. We constantly tell guys, "If you don't know, don't guess". The ump just picked a really unfortunate time to make a guess.

Sorry Churck but in baseball its the job of the plate umpire to call::

Ball and strikes

That's his most important job so you can't say he had no business making the call.

Secondly, he did know what happened because as an umpire you can see the ball hit the ground, you can see a short hop etc., especially calling with the big boys.

I'm not a MLB umpire, but I've called college ball and its amazing what you can see with a good catcher etc.,

Finally, if in doubt, signal the swing and look at the actions of the players. The batter took off immediately so that tells you something he saw.

If you do college ball then you should know... If in doubt he's out. Why would you key on batter runner? I would trust my catcher (especially at the higher levels) to know whether or not he caught the ball. Rolling it to the pitcher would most probably "sell me" that he caught the ball clean.

And then you always have the 1st and 3rd base umpires to look at for help. I didn't see it shown on TV, but I'm sure the 3rd base umpire gave a signal.

That play is hard to see from the bases. Third base umpire has the righty batter and catchers leg in the way. First base umpire has catchers leg in the way. If replay can be judged as inconclusive I doubt from over 100 feet away you could expect help from your partners in this particular case.

And then you could see first base umpire moving into the field for the play at first, so he knew it hit the ground also.

First base umpire moving easily explained. He has BR running to first and still has a possible call to make. It doesn't necessarily mean he saw the ball hit the dirt.

Just my take on a crazy play.

Thanks
David

Poor communication resulted in a "Three Stooges Episode" breaking out.

When in doubt call em out? haven't heard that since little league.

Actually its quite the opposite - look at the definition of catch. Its up to the fielder to prove to me that he caught the ball - in this case F2 didn't prove it.

Without complete knowledge that its a catch, the call is "no catch".

Same as a diving catch in the outfield.

If I as umpire am not 100% sure I have a catch, then I'm relying on player reaction and my partners but I'm NOT calling an out.

Thanks
David

DArn....with all the bosox and yankee talk this year, it is hard to imagine that the Astros and white sox are still standing when everybody else has headed back to wherever their green cards say they are from. :)

Quote:

Originally posted by bigwhistle
DArn....with all the bosox and yankee talk this year, it is hard to imagine that the Astros and white sox are still standing when everybody else has headed back to wherever their green cards say they are from. :)

Yabut........does anyone care though? :D