WARNING!!! WARNING!! Annual off-topic baseball thread!!

[M&M Guy]

Originally posted by Dan_ref

Think I should sue him?

In this case, only if you can prove intent.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally posted by mick
[/B]

Still no one answers the questions of why, where, who.
Still no one questions the system.
Secrecy runs rampant.

Burn the Witch! Burn! Burn!
mick

[/B][/QUOTE]Mick, what are your suggestions then? Rafael Palmeiro shows up with a positive steroid test. Hell, any MLB ballplayer shows up with a positive test for any banned substance. Independant testing labs and a neutral arbitrator then confirm those test results as being accurate and true.

You've just been appointed Commissioner. What does Commissioner Mick do with Rafael Palmeiro now?

[mick]

Originally posted by M&M Guy

Actually, journalism is good practice for conversing with some of the people on this board...

I'm not sure the system is "broke". I wouldn't think Donald Fehr would allow anything resembling a defective system to be implemented. I'm not a big union guy, but I do recognize the MLPA is probably the most powerful union around, so it would be hard for me to acknowledge the union getting pressured into something "broken". So, it all comes back to Rafael and his choices.

You keep mentioning to burn the witch. You could be saying that about the system. Are you saying there's something you don't understand (the system), so let's get rid of it before it destroys us all?!

To me, this whole thing is like the day the skunk wandered into your backyard. The day was fine, then it started to stink. This whole mess stinks. I would rather (as much as it pains me) talk about how the Cubs will probably blow it again this year, than talk about steroids, cheating, gambling, whatever. It ruins the all-American game for me.

Care for any M&M's? I have plain, peanut, and the kind with sprinkles...(oops, never mind).

Burning the Witch is the easiest solution. Light the match and turn away. If there's another Witch, just get another match.

[Your metaphor of the skunk won't work for me in this case.
This Spring a skunk did wander through my back yard.
Not wanting it to take up residence, I killed it in my yard.
Mistake. Big Mistake!]

The Tigers have a tolerable schedule after getting pounded out West (Oakland, Seattle). Still looking for .500 by the end of the season.

Yes. M&M Peanut, please. ...And please, hold the sprinkles.
mick

[ChuckElias]

Originally posted by mick
This Spring a skunk did wander through my back yard.
Not wanting it to take up residence, I killed it in my yard.
Mistake. Big Mistake!

I tried to help you. . . but did you take my advice? Noooooooo!

[mick]

Originally posted by Jurassic Referee

Still no one answers the questions of why, where, who.
Still no one questions the system.
Secrecy runs rampant.

Burn the Witch! Burn! Burn!
mick

[/B]

Mick, what are your suggestions then? Rafael Palmeiro shows up with a positive steroid test. Hell, any MLB ballplayer shows up with a positive test for any banned substance. Independant testing labs and a neutral arbitrator then confirm those test results as being accurate and true.

You've just been appointed Commissioner. What does Commissioner Mick do with Rafael Palmeiro now? [/B][/QUOTE]

JR,
Find out why, how, where it happened.
Make certain the amounts found will actually affect the athlete. Treat each case on an individual basis based upon amounts, frequency and intent.
or...
light the match and turn away and go blindly into the night.
mick

[ChuckElias]

Originally posted by mick
or...
light the match and turn away and go blindly into the night.
mick

I thought it was better to light a match than to curse the darkness. . .

[mick]

Originally posted by ChuckElias

I tried to help you. . . but did you take my advice? Noooooooo!

Acually Chuck,
That was pretty much my precise wording.
mick

[M&M Guy]

Originally posted by mick
This Spring a skunk did wander through my back yard.
Not wanting it to take up residence, I killed it in my yard.
Mistake. Big Mistake!

The Tigers have a tolerable schedule after getting pounded out West (Oakland, Seattle). Still looking for .500 by the end of the season.

Yes. M&M Peanut, please. ...And please, hold the sprinkles.
mick

Did you light a match to it? Burn it! Burn it! (Ok, I'm done.) I do remember the "skunk skandal"; I wasn't aware, however, that it went up to the great zoo in the sky. Has the aroma ever left?

And at least the Cubbies are a game over .500. Well, as of now. It's too bad I still have to listen to Cardinal fans. I'm (almost) hoping if the Cubs don't make it, that Houston catches them, just so I can be a sore loser and rub it in.

[M&M Guy]

Originally posted by ChuckElias
I thought it was better to light a match than to curse the darkness. . .

...except if you're not sure your gas tank is empty...

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally posted by M&M Guy
And at least the Cubbies are a game over .500.
[/B]

Test 'em all!!!!!

Burn, baby, burn......

[M&M Guy]

Originally posted by Jurassic Referee

Test 'em all!!!!!

Burn, baby, burn...... [/B]

Yankee fans...Cardinal fans...

Same difference.

[Mark Padgett]

http://www.t-shirthumor.com/Merchant...bs/rndr_sm.gif

[Jurassic Referee]

According to the NY Times, which is noted for not printing rumors, Rafael Palmeiro tested positive for Stanozolol, which is a pretty heavy-duty 'roid. According to that story, Stanozolol is not present in any of the iffy over-the-counter supplements. Iow, there goes that excuse. Stanozolol is the steroid that the Balco boys were dispensing, according to the leaked grand jury testimony.

http://www.usatoday.com/sports/baseb...iro-test_x.htm

I didn't link to the NY Times story because that requires a membership.

Hmmmmmmm.......

How do you not knowingly take Stanozolol?

[Edited by Jurassic Referee on Aug 3rd, 2005 at 06:38 AM]

[M&M Guy]

Burn 'em! Steroid users! Cardinal fans! Even Yankee fans! Burn 'em all!

Wow, this crowd rage thing can be fun sometimes.

No wonder he never came out and said, "It was all a mistake - here's the supplement I took - here's the lab's record of failed tests", etc. If this is correct, it certainly removes the cheater vs. stupid argument.

Now, here's another question I've been pondering: Does he still qualify for the Hall of Fame?

[Dan_ref]

A good article by Bob's cousin Lee:

http://www.nytimes.com/2005/08/03/sp...steroids.html?

August 3, 2005
Popular Steroid Is at the Center of Palmeiro's Case

By LEE JENKINS

The positive drug test that has left Rafael Palmeiro's legacy in doubt involved the potent anabolic steroid stanozolol, a person in baseball with direct knowledge of the sport's drug-testing program said yesterday.

Stanozolol, known by its brand name, Winstrol, was most notably linked to the Olympic sprinter Ben Johnson of Canada, who was stripped of a gold medal in 1988 after testing positive for that steroid.

Now Palmeiro, one of only four major league players with more than 3,000 hits and 500 home runs, is being associated with the same substance.

The person who said that Palmeiro tested positive for stanozolol did not want to be identified because the testing policy prohibits anyone in baseball from disclosing information about test results without authorization.

This revelation came on the day that Major League Baseball suspended its eighth player - and second in a span of 24 hours - for violating the drug-testing policy. Ryan Franklin, a starting pitcher for the Seattle Mariners, became the fourth major league pitcher suspended for steroid use. Like Palmeiro, Franklin appealed the suspension, but an arbitrator decided yesterday not to overturn it.

Palmeiro said Monday that he had never intentionally taken steroids, but stanozolol does not come in dietary supplements and is among the most popular steroids on the market. It can be ingested or injected and usually remains in a person's system for at least a month.

"It's a mildly strong to strong steroid," said Dr. Gary Wadler, a professor at New York University who is an expert in sports doping. "Potent is the word I would use."

Palmeiro, who testified in front of the House Committee on Government Reform in March that he never took steroids, spoke on the telephone yesterday with the committee chairman, Tom Davis, a Virginia Republican, according to Davis's spokesman, Rob White. Palmeiro said Monday that he tried to call Davis and planned on calling Henry A. Waxman of California, the ranking Democrat on the committee.

"Rafael was able to connect with Chairman Davis late this afternoon and assured him he will cooperate fully and provide his committee with any information it requests," Palmeiro's agent, Arn Tellem, said in a statement.

Yesterday, Davis and Waxman were considering sending two letters, one to Major League Baseball asking for all of the specifics on the Palmeiro testing, another to Palmeiro asking him to cooperate in releasing that information. A final decision on the letters had not been made as of yesterday evening, a committee staff member said.

Palmeiro is probably not at risk of perjury charges for his finger-pointing, categorical denial of using steroids in his sworn testimony because the positive test was taken some weeks later, the committee staff member said, speaking on condition of anonymity because official statements are supposed to come from members of Congress.

In 2003 and 2004, Major League Baseball reported 128 positive steroid tests, including 74 for the steroid nandrolone (known commercially as Deca-Durabolin) and 37 for stanozolol. But last year, only one positive test was for nandrolone and 11 positive tests were for stanozolol, an indication of a changing trend.

Dr. Harrison G. Pope, a Harvard professor, psychiatrist and steroids expert, said nandrolone is detectable in the body for a much longer period than stanozolol. Nandrolone also was common in dietary supplements before it was added to the list of controlled substances in 2005.

According to The San Francisco Chronicle, the sprinter Tim Montgomery testified to a federal grand jury in 2003 that Victor Conte, head of the Bay Area Laboratory Co-Operative, told him he had given Winstrol to the San Francisco Giants' star slugger Barry Bonds. The Chronicle reported that in testimony to the grand jury, Bonds admitted to using a clear substance and a cream supplied by Balco and believed to be designer steroids but told federal prosecutors he did not know the substances were steroids. Bonds's lawyer, Michael Rains, has said that Bonds did not take illegal steroids.

Sometime after Palmeiro returns from his 10-day suspension, probably on Aug. 12 against the Toronto Blue Jays, he will be tested again. Under the current drug-testing policy, every major league player is given one unannounced test a year and can also be subjected to random tests. Violators, however, are placed in a separate category. The health policy advisory committee sets up a schedule that ensures they will be tested at another unannounced date. So far this season, 1,000 drug tests have been administered in the major leagues - there are approximately 1,200 players - and 900 have been processed.

The suspensions of Palmeiro and Franklin came after one of the most anticipated weekends of the baseball season, featuring the Hall of Fame induction ceremony and the passing of the nonwaiver trading deadline. The timing is considered a coincidence because both Palmeiro and Franklin issued appeals and needed an arbitrator to hear their cases. While Palmeiro is the highest-profile player ever to be suspended for steroid use, Franklin is a little-known starting pitcher with a 6-11 record and a 4.63 earned run average this season. He told reporters yesterday that he tested positive in early May and negative three weeks later.

"There's got to be a flaw in the system," Franklin was quoted as saying by The Associated Press at Detroit's Comerica Park, before the Mariners played the Tigers. "I have no clue."

In a study conducted by The New York Times six weeks into this season, 63 minor league players had been suspended and 29 were pitchers. Now, half the players who have been suspended at the major league level are also pitchers.

Despite the stereotype of the muscle-bound slugger constantly trying to bulk up, many in baseball say pitchers may be using steroids to increase velocity, maintain strength over a long season, and recover more quickly between appearances.

"As a whole, we've probably been surprised by the number of pitchers that have been involved with it," Mets pitcher Tom Glavine said earlier this season. "I think there was a perception it wouldn't do anything for pitchers. I think we probably all realize we might be wrong."

Murray Chass and Duff Wilson contributed reporting for this article.

Copyright 2005 The New York Times Company