Here's one for everyone: I was watching an AAU game last weekend and this is what happened. Jump ball to start game, A1 taps ball towards B's basket. A2 catches ball in stride takes one dribble, finger rolls a layup, that hits the back of rim and falls out. Everyone is yelling, so A2 realizes that he has shot at the wrong basket, so he grabs the ball and starts another dribble towards his own basket. What do we have and Why?
All players were confused as well as the officials.

By rule you could have a double dribble as soon as he caught the "rebound." However. In AAU, hit the whistle and give A the ball OOB clearly indicating who is going which way.

How is it a double dribble? :)

Tony,
Remember that A2 is shooting at B's basket. Therefore, it is not a try.

I'd call the double-dribble violation when he dribbles again. I know that throwing the ball off your opponent's backboard counts as a dribble, but I don't think that the ring is included.



[Edited by Nevadaref on Mar 23rd, 2005 at 12:36 AM]

I just checked. There is no mention of the ring in the rule.

Here's the exact wording:

RULE 4 - SECTION 4 BALL LOCATION, AT DISPOSAL

ART. 5 . . . A ball which touches the front faces or edges of the backboard is treated the same as touching the floor inbounds, except that when the ball touches the thrower's backboard it does not constitute a part of a dribble.

Thank you very much, I'll be here all weekend! Don't forget to tip your waitress!
 

Which is exactly why I asked Snaq why he would whistle a double dribble as soon as the player caught the "rebound."

It's okay, NV, I can wait for you to catch up. ;)

Sorry, I'm three hours behind you out here on PST. I should have noticed your :)

It's still an illegal second dribble when they dribble again.

The original post says they dribble once and then attempt a lay up. I suppose you can consider this an interrupted dribble, they then GRAB the rebound, which ends the dribble and then they dribble again.

Hmmm, doesnt seem like a double dribble to me either. A tap or try is the same on either end of the floor, wrong goal or not.

Sorry bud, but that's not true.

RULE 4 - SECTION 40 SHOOTING, TRY, TAP
ART. 2 . . . A try for field goal is an attempt by a player to score two or three points by throwing the ball into a team's own basket.


This play is a double dribble; it is just a matter of when.
Tony and I are saying that bouncing the ball off the ring at the opponent's basket does not constitute a dribble.

When the player catches the ball and dribbles again, that is a violation.

Case 4.4.5. If the ball hits the opponent's backboard, it is considered the same as touching the floor. If player A ,in all that play, never touches the ball with both hands, he may continue dribbling, however, if he caught the "rebound" (remember, by rule, this is not a "try"), with both hands and restarted a dribble, it is a double dribble, for touching the ball simoultaneously with both hands during a dribble. You may play the ball off your own backboard (if you deem it a "try"), but the ball coming off the opponent's backboard is considered a continuation of a dribble.

All well and good, Frank, but the ball never hit the backboard on this play. Go back and check the original post again. :)

Because A2 moved his pivot foot and recaught the ball? It's the same as A2 stopping the dribble, throwing the ball over B2, moving and recatching the ball. I think that's classified as an illegal dribble.

In any event, it is a violation and I disagree with snaqwells' comment to give the ball back to A (assuming the jumpers were lined up in the correct direction and A2 was the only one confused).

I could agree with that Bob. The ball never hit the backboard, so we don't treat it as hitting the floor, so it is not a legal dribble. If the player moved his pivot foot during this fingerroll action and then recaught the ball, that could well fall under casebook play 4.15.4 Sit D part (a), which makes it an illegal dribble at that point.

Just be a whole lot easier if the player could make a layup.

I wonder if the jumper tapped backwards or if both jumpers were set up facing the wrong direction. The orig post does not define but it doesn't make sense if the tap went backwards and the kid shot a layup. ??

Yeah, Yeah, Yeah, I know
 

That's what I get for reading too quickly. I saw "layup" and assumed backboard. Oops.
I was assuming, also, that everyone was confused. Otherwise, I'm calling the double dribble when he dribbles again.

Here's a twist.

Same situation.
finger roll after dribbling. Ball never touches both hands. Ball hits iron and bounces to floor, where A2 decides to just continue dribbling rather than gathering it in.
I'm thinking this is a carry from the finger roll, but not illegal until he continues the dribble. Right?

What about the lovely idea of calling a travel? It wasn't stated and since this kid couldn't make a lay-up in the first place this isn't a given, but he likely jumped (picking up the pivot foot involved) and then gathered the ball in again. He did all of this intentionally, so the only provision that would make this legal is calling it a fumble and that is ruled out because he did it on purpose. So to determine a course of action what situation is this similar to? I would relate this throwing the ball in the air and running 5 or 6 steps to catch it.

In either case the dribble ended when the player finger-rolled the ball the released the ball. To finger-roll the palms will be facing up and the ball comes to rest therefore dribble has ended. If he is the first to touch the ball after losing possession of the ball after the dribble ended then he is guilty of the violation. whistle and give the ball to the opposing team.

Addendum to previous reply:

My current rule book are in my car but in the 2203-04 Case book look at 9.5 Situation on page 66.

The ruling there is that after the dribble ended if A1 throws the ball against an opponent backboard (or floor, or official for that matter, ie anything other than another player)this constitutes another dribble if A1 is first to touch. See Rule 4-15-2; Fundamental 19.

Call foul on B!
No free throws since A1 not in act of shooting.
Give A throwing at spot nearest the foul.

Before giving A the ball for a throw-in I will tell thrower to hold the designated spot and remind both teams which direction they are going on offense.

Double dribble violation.

His first dribble ends during the lay-up. (ball come to a rest at his hand), so he can not start another dribble with 3 exceptions. touching the wrong ring is not one of them.


HS 9-5-1 "A player shall not dribble a second time after his/her first dribble has ended,
unless it is after he/she has lost control because of:
ART. 1 . . . A try for field goal.
ART. 2 . . . A bat by an opponent.
ART. 3 . . . A pass or fumble which has then touched, or been touched by, another player."

But then what if he catches his "rebound" without more dribble?

I believe it is still a violation, but not sure what the right term is for this. still "double dribble"? What is the official term of intentional "self-pass" without ball hittig the floor?

Thanks.

I think you could rightfully call a travel on this as soon as he touches the ball again.

To both you and BoomerSooner,
This is NOT a travel. In order to travel the player MUST be holding the ball (with one goofy exception, 4.43.5 SitB last sentence).

RULE 4 - SECTION 43 TRAVELING
Traveling (running with the ball) is moving a foot or feet in any direction in excess of prescribed limits while holding the ball.

As Bob Jenkins pointed out earlier in this thread, the correct call here is an illegal dribble violation. It is that same signal as a double dribble, but a slightly different concept. See casebook play 4.15.4 Sit D that I cited earlier for the explanation.

The "right term" doesn't matter to anyone except overly-anal officials. Blow the whistle, flail the arms as you like, point the other way and get the game going.

Explain it to the coach in five words or fewer as you run by.

You guys make a simple play entirely too complicated.

[Edited by BktBallRef on Mar 24th, 2005 at 08:44 AM]

When a player lifts his pivot foot, he is limited to what he can do. I will assume he jumped for the layup, lifting his pivot foot. Once he does that, he must either shoot, pass, or call timeout. If he starts a dribble, it's a travel. If he passes and retrieves his own pass, it's a travel. So, if it hits the backboard, he has started a dribble and it will be a travel when he touches it again. If it just hits the rim, it's a travel as soon as two things have happened: his pivot foot has returned, and he has touched the ball again.

I'm feeling overly anal this morning. :)

Why? Where's the disadvantage? He's not shooting, so there's no disadvantage there. All he can do if he touches the ball again is violate, so you're not putting him at a disadvantage there.

The only person being disadvantaged is B1, as he is trying to prevent A1 from giving his team two points.

Adam,
Since you wish to be precise, I'll tell you that you have brought up a great point about travelling also including starting a dribble after lifting the pivot foot.

However, the play in question (hit the opponent's ring, not the backboard, and catch the ball WITHOUT it hitting the floor) is still an illegal dribble and not a travel because the ball never hit the floor.
Therefore, the player never dribbled, so you can't call him for travelling due to starting a dribble after lifting his pivot. Case play 4.15.4 Sit D is still the best ruling.

Also, if the player never jumps, but "shoots" at the wrong goal from the floor, and then runs over and catches the ball off the ring, you can't make that case for travelling.

Unless the ball hits the floor, I believe that illegal dribble is the only correct call.

If A1 jumps in the air, throws a pass, and retrieves it without the ball hitting the floor, it's a travel. That's what I have on this case. It's not a try for goal, so it's got to be covered under the same rules as a pass.

If this isn't a pass, then it's a shot. I don't see a third option under the rules. If it's a shot, then the player can proceed to dribble and you can't call anything even if he airballs it. If it's not a shot, then he travels if he gets the rebound on a jump shot to the wrong basket.

Very nice! I think I can get you a match with the Devil . . .

Re: Thank you very much, I'll be here all weekend! Don't forget to tip your waitress!
 

Do you really tip the waitress after eating out?

LOL!!!