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Old Sat Mar 19, 2005, 11:47pm
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Looking for some feedback: I was listening to sports radio today and some reporter was talking about the T called against Syracuse for slapping the backboard (I think it was Syracuse). Anyway, he said Technical fouls in general were unfair for the game because in no other sport does an official's anger result in a chance for the opposing to team to score. His analogy was soccer where if the coach or a player gets upset at the referee they get a card but the other team doesn't get any goals for it. I think his argument is flawed for a couple of reasons:

1) We refs just enforce rules, we don't make them.
2) A shooter still has to make the free throws for a technical, the points are not simply awarded
3) If I gave a yellow or red card to a coach as quickly as soccer officials do for dissenting I don't think any coaches I had this year would have finished a game (and I'm pretty lenient).

Anyway, anyone think otherwise about this? Should we look to change the rules and penalize unsportsmanlike in some other way as opposed to awarding free throws? What if you just warn the coach and give possession back to the other team? If they already have possession give it to them in the frontcourt under the basket. I'm not an advocate for eliminating the technical fouls but I was wondering what others here think?

RAO
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Old Sat Mar 19, 2005, 11:54pm
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Quote:
Originally posted by johnnyrao
Looking for some feedback: I was listening to sports radio today and some reporter was talking about the T called against Syracuse for slapping the backboard (I think it was Syracuse). Anyway, he said Technical fouls in general were unfair for the game because in no other sport does an official's anger result in a chance for the opposing to team to score. His analogy was soccer where if the coach or a player gets upset at the referee they get a card but the other team doesn't get any goals for it. I think his argument is flawed for a couple of reasons:

1) We refs just enforce rules, we don't make them.
2) A shooter still has to make the free throws for a technical, the points are not simply awarded
3) If I gave a yellow or red card to a coach as quickly as soccer officials do for dissenting I don't think any coaches I had this year would have finished a game (and I'm pretty lenient).

Anyway, anyone think otherwise about this? Should we look to change the rules and penalize unsportsmanlike in some other way as opposed to awarding free throws? What if you just warn the coach and give possession back to the other team? If they already have possession give it to them in the frontcourt under the basket. I'm not an advocate for eliminating the technical fouls but I was wondering what others here think?

RAO
I agree with you that the official's anger has little or nothing to do with it. What a weird remark!

I also agree that the comparison between the T and the yellow or red card is flawed. I mean, in soccer, you only expect a score of 3 - 10 per team so a shot or awarded point would be huge. In basketball, where even a low score is 30 or 40, what's two shots?

I think T's ought to carry MORE penalty, not less. I like the rec league rule that a T is an automatic 2 points. But then, my opionion doesn't matter much -- my turn to play God doesn't come for another several hundred years or so!
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Old Sun Mar 20, 2005, 12:21am
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Most reporters are idiots.

Pay them no mind.
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Old Sun Mar 20, 2005, 02:24am
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Official's anger????????
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Old Sun Mar 20, 2005, 03:28am
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LOL.... that's funny.

I thought if you got a red card you had to play man down in soccer for the rest of the game? True or false because I know almost zilch about it.

If we had cards, I'd be giving yellow cards out like free food.
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Old Sun Mar 20, 2005, 08:47am
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Quote:
Originally posted by Snake~eyes
LOL.... that's funny.

I thought if you got a red card you had to play man down in soccer for the rest of the game? True or false because I know almost zilch about it.

If we had cards, I'd be giving yellow cards out like free food.
Snake,

You are correct, a red or two yellows and you lose the player for the game. I didn't think of that one at the time but it makes his case even more flawed. How about a basketball game that is 5 versus 3 because you red card two players on one team.
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Old Sun Mar 20, 2005, 11:46am
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My $0.02:

If you think the penalty is too harsh or will give the other team an unfair advantage, then behave. We don't just whack coaches because we feel like it, they have to earn it. If they don't do anything to earn it then they won't get disadvantaged by the technical foul.

There is nothing wrong with the rule, everyone knows about it going into the game, so they can't exactly say it's unexpected and out of the blue.

Don't complain, suck it up and behave.

Now to get off this soap box
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Old Sun Mar 20, 2005, 12:30pm
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If it was about official's anger, there would be a heck of a lot more T's in overtime games.
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Old Sun Mar 20, 2005, 12:47pm
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Question

What about penalty shots in ice hockey?

Ya know, I heard once there are also penalty shots in some other sport, but I think that's only in Europe, so it doesn't count.
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Old Sun Mar 20, 2005, 02:36pm
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Quote:
Originally posted by Mark Padgett
What about penalty shots in ice hockey?

Ya know, I heard once there are also penalty shots in some other sport, but I think that's only in Europe, so it doesn't count.
There's penalty shots in icehockey??????
That's news to me...


There's penalty shots in Soccer and Women's Lacrosse.


Anyways, if the T is too harsh then don't act like a jackass.
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Old Sun Mar 20, 2005, 07:39pm
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Quote:
Originally posted by johnnyrao
Quote:
Originally posted by Snake~eyes
LOL.... that's funny.

I thought if you got a red card you had to play man down in soccer for the rest of the game? True or false because I know almost zilch about it.

If we had cards, I'd be giving yellow cards out like free food.
Snake,

You are correct, a red or two yellows and you lose the player for the game. I didn't think of that one at the time but it makes his case even more flawed. How about a basketball game that is 5 versus 3 because you red card two players on one team.
Not too sure this is true anymore. I stopped officiating soccer 4 years ago and seems to me I have heard/read something about a "soft" red where you don't play down a player. NevadRef still does soccer so he could bring us all up to date on this.
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Old Sun Mar 20, 2005, 11:29pm
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Quote:
Originally posted by dblref

Not too sure this is true anymore. I stopped officiating soccer 4 years ago and seems to me I have heard/read something about a "soft" red where you don't play down a player. NevadRef still does soccer so he could bring us all up to date on this.
I don't know about the current rules, but when I managed a HS soccer team (also 4 years ago), if you got a red card for two cautions, the team didn't have to play a man down.
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Old Sun Mar 20, 2005, 11:51pm
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Yes there is a "soft red" in soccer and when given you show both the yellow and red card simultaneously. The player is ejected and loses the next game, however, he/she can be replaced and the team does not play a man down. Soft reds are only for specific violations and are in NFHS play only. Not FIFA. There are also yellow cards (warnings) and "hard reds" - ejections, loss of next game, and you play the remainder of the game one man down for each red card given.

As for the comment by the announcer -- these guys have to fill up air time somehow -- even if their comments are idiotic. This comparison shows that the commentator knows nothing about soccer -- and his basketball expertise should comeinto question soon.
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Old Mon Mar 21, 2005, 12:07am
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In rugby union and rugby league if a player is penalised (he can be penalised for back chat) then the opposing team gets to choose if they want to tap the ball there kick for touch (and then get possession for where it goes into touch) or take a shot at goal. A player can also be sin binned for ten minutes completely sent off or put on report (a match review commitee will review the game tape in order to see whether to suspend the player).
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Old Mon Mar 21, 2005, 01:43am
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A little soccer primer for those who are interested

Quote:
Originally posted by Mark Dexter
Quote:
Originally posted by dblref

Not too sure this is true anymore. I stopped officiating soccer 4 years ago and seems to me I have heard/read something about a "soft" red where you don't play down a player. NevadRef still does soccer so he could bring us all up to date on this.
Quote:
Originally posted by refnrev
Yes there is a "soft red" in soccer and when given you show both the yellow and red card simultaneously. The player is ejected and loses the next game...
I don't know about the current rules, but when I managed a HS soccer team (also 4 years ago), if you got a red card for two cautions, the team didn't have to play a man down.
First we must understand that soccer is played under two entirely different sets of rules. There are the NFHS rules, which govern high school play, and then there is the United States Soccer Federation (USSF) Laws of the Game, which govern club play in the US and are quite similar to FIFA (the world governing body) Laws of the Game. The two groups are totally autonomous and have to connection with each other whatsoever. This means that there are cases where the rules of play differ vastly.

Both sets do use red and yellow cards. NFHS has a "soft red" (both the yellow and red cards are shown simultaneously) for receiving two yellows in a match or excessive celebration. (Taunting was also a "soft red" last year, but was just changed to a "hard red" for the upcoming season.) The player who receives the "soft red" is disqualified from that contest, but the team is NOT required to play a man down, which is case for a hard red. It is up to the state association whether the player must also sit out the next contest. In Nevada the player may play in the next game. We only make players sit for hard reds.

USSF and FIFA do not have the concept of a "soft red" and consequently also does not make reference to a "hard red." If a player receives two cautions (yellow cards) in the same match that equates to a red. That player is ejected from the match and his team plays a man down for the rest of the game.
USSF youth play is also governed on a state association basis (CA has two: North and South), but these groups have nothing to do with the HS associations. Almost all of them suspend a player for the next game for receiving an ejection. For adult amateur and professional play the league rules and governing board specify the suspension. Again almost all make an ejected player sit the next match.

At the professional level, cautions can accumulate over a period of league matches or during a tournament. For example, a player who receives a yellow card in his team's first match and then again in their third match, would not be ejected from either of those contests, but would have to miss their fourth match. This is the case for the World Cup. I like this rule as it significantly cuts down on rough play. I wish our state HS association would adopt this policy for league play.
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