I just finished my first ever adult,(or so they said) Church tournament. I'll never make the mistake of taking those games again. They can't pay enough. No one knows the rules (except 2 former college players that were a breath of fresh air the 2 times I had them), everyone whines and moans, no one can move to play legal defense, and of course it was our fault that every team that lost, lost. I saw the warnings on the forum, I should have listened. I had a moment of weakness when I was driven by greed and the quick money this tournament offered. I'm going for a beer.

It never hurts in a siutation like this! ;) At least you made it out.

I Feel Your Pain
 

Several years ago, I agreed to officiate an alumni tournament at our local high school. Most verbal abuse I've taken since my wife accused me of not paying enough attention to her.

Haven't made either mistake again. :D

Sven

Re: I Feel Your Pain
 

Really? She's always been nice to me. :D:

Re: Re: I Feel Your Pain
 

I really really want to add a comment here but I'm going to choose the high road.

Men's league did me in. After a particularly bad experience a couple of weeks ago, I'm shutting it down and re-evaluating whether or not I ever want to officiate another basketball game. I'll see how I feel after going to a clinic in the summer and when next season approaches, but as of right now, I don't particularly care to ever pick up the whistle again.

I feel your pain. I almost felt the same way yesterday when i finished. I'm just going to never work adults again and get ready for the real season next winter. I'm sure going to clinics and camps will help. It's always good to hear from people who actually know the game and what we're trying to do.

Nahhhhhhh, don't let those whiney recleague adults ruin your fun. Unless you don't have fun in other games too then don't quit.

never again
 

I just started softball after ending basketball this month. I am astonished and amazed at the difference in the fans, player, and coaches. Basketball people are neanderthals. When coaches in SB have a question, they politely ask you for a ruling or ask you to ask for help-rather than questioning me and my sexual orientation, my family tree, etc. . I will do basketball again but softball is so much more pleasant and enjoyable. And yes I have worked a game with the village idiot and all he did was ask for my INTERP on a call I made against his team. In comparsion in basketball I have been locked out of locker room so all the parents could come by and take a shot a verbal shot at us while we waited for the losing coach to let us back in.

No way, never again, not gonna do it, can't make me so stop asking. I WILL NOT do a men's league game again and I'll sit down and explain my reasoning to any friend who thinks it's something they want to try. The players are idiots, the fans are idiots and if the team has a designated coach, he's an idiot. I used to play these leagues and I think I was even an idiot.

Not so fast.
 

I was working a Men's Fast Pitch Softball tournament several years ago. I believe the bases were empty. I was the BU and there was fly ball hit to RF. As the ball approached the fielder, the fielder had the ball first hit is glove, bounce off the glove, hit is other hand, then his chest, then the ground. He fell to the ground and it was hard to tell at first if he caught the ball. When he reached for the ball on the ground and held up the ball after he was lying on his back, I ruled a no catch. By the time all that happened, the batter had pretty much reached home on an in the park home run. The team in the field argued emphatically that he caught the ball. They even told me "the ground cannot cause a fumble." Being a football official as well, I was in shock. This was just not a simple argument, you would have thought they were very knowledable of the rules by the way they were trying to tell me how much I missed this call.

That was the last time I worked Men's slow pitch softball.

Peace

Re: Not so fast.
 

Did you say it was fast pitch, slow pitch or both? LOL
Last summer I worked slow pitch 1-2 night per week and decided that it would not be worth it this year.

Easy there!
 

I'll be in the minority on here, but I don't mind men's league games. They test your patience & game management skills big time! If you can manage a men's league game...with all the whining, complaining, and rules' kings...then you can just about manage anything!

I use these games as a GREAT opportunity to learn how to call T's that help my game. It usually works! By establishing you know the rules and you aren't going to take any crap, guys tend to shut up & play...even if it's after you call a few T's!!

Last week, I did a game that included the biggest whining & complaining team in the league. All the regular officials HATE this team. Since I am a fill-in for the last few weeks of the tournament, I told the regulars that I'd be happy to take their game. They looked at me like I was crazy and said, "SURE! Be our guest!!" After calling several fouls on them, and putting my whistle in my mouth and staring down the worst whiner on the team after he had complained about an easy call against him, they decided that they didn't want any piece of me! They played ball. And, since they are a decent team when they actually PLAY, they blew the other team out by 35. Plus, we didn't have any problems.

[Edited by Indy_Ref on Mar 21st, 2005 at 03:46 PM]

I have to agree with Indy_Ref, mens league is the best place to work on game management, T administration as well as other things. Yes they do whine, but it has given me tougher skin to deal with high school.

Ditto. They're certainly morons, has-beens and wannabe's but...

After working a number of them organized school ball has become a lot easier for me. Same with weekend tournaments with the "my kid who'll enter the NBA draft after 9th grade" parents and coaches. Which the worst is the parent whom IS the coach!

Rec League would suck for an under 25 yr old I think but for 30 and over who are just starting to officiate, I think they are a good initial training ground.

If you can walk out of a league game with your senses intact, you did a good job.

Put me down as in favor of working the rec leagues. Most times I hear the refs complaining about the complaining I ask them if they made use of the T's and other game management techniques in an effort to TRY and makes things better for the game at hand. More often than not the refs said they did not dole out the T's. Let me say this about Rec Ball, sometimes you MUST take charge of the situation early and firmly otherwise you will only be fish food for the sharks. There is no need for you to get into conversations on rules, judgements, or procedures -- it is your floor!

Strong game management skills is what gets you promoted to do higher level work (if you aspire to do so). Game management is what gets you peace of mind in knowing that you can handle the tough situations. Game management is what gets you respect from the participants far quicker than anything else. I encourage all of you to work the rec leagues (at all levels) and sieze the opporunity to work on those game management skills.

Don't get lazy and develop bad habits just because it is a rec league rather use the game time to work on the mechanics, positioning, communcation, and management skills with which we ALL NEED PRACTICE.

• Don't take any crap from any player, coach, parent, or fan.
• Dole out the T effectively after the first stop sign.
• Enforce the rules like lane violations, substitutions, coaches box, and hand-checking strictly by the book.
• Dole out the T again if the message is not heard the first time.

If they want to complain and whine, they can do so from the parking lot unless YOU LET THEM MANAGE YOU!

Don't be scared.

Re: Re: Not so fast.
 

Sorry I meant fast pitch. It has been a very long two weeks.

Peace

I cannot think of the last time I had to throw out a coach or player in a basketball game at the HS or JH level. When I watch games on TV, it is very rare it happens there. I have no problem giving out Ts if the actions warrant it. If I have to give a T every single game, that is a problem. I do not want to have to remove someone every single game because I am doing my job. We do not need that crap. Not sure how that makes someone better as an official? We take enough crap as it is every time we officiate a game. Why do I want to work a game that is not like the games I want to achieve at?

Peace

You both stated your points very well and I agree with what you've said.
Ring ring: Hello this is Chris.
caller: hey Chris do you want to ref some games tonight for our men's league?
Me: No thanks.

I said a friend so first of all, I have to decide if you are a friend ;-) I think it's only fair to make sure said friend knows exactly what they are getting into. Countless times I've heard people here and also heard friends say that it wasn't sooooo bad the first week or 3 but after that it went down hill fast. If I could pick my partners, it might be better because we could stick to correct mechanics, but working with career rec refs on these men's league games just doesn't work. Why you ask?
1. They don't usually support your calls because generally they don't know how.
2. Your mechanics go in the toilet because they don't know them and if they do they don't want to switch so they can save energy.
3. The role model for rule with these players is the NBA.
I could go on and on but I've gotta get something done today.

great feedback
 

Last year I stopped doing Adult Basketball League games. I asked myself why I was doing these games? Is it fun? NO. Is it worth the money? NO. Am I getting anything out of officiating the Adult Basketball League? NO. Do the players appreciate having officials? NO.

So for these reasons, I only officiate youth recreational basketball and school level games (varsity and below).

My last adult game last year ended this way: (long story made short)--During the 1st half, I ejected 1 fan, for swearing at me, threating me and pretending to throw the ball at me (the ball had gone out of bounds, to him).

I had given out a few warnings to the players during the game to "play basketball,not officiate." One team had only 5 players to start the game, early in the 4th quarter, I threw out 2 players from this team (after yelling at me about a call, swearing and trying to physically intimidate me). I stopped the game, delcaring a forfeit victory for the opposing team. Police were called after receving numerous threats from players, received a police escort out of the gym and all the way to the town line.

I do have lots of experience in officiating Adult Basketball League games. I also directed a Men's Basketball League for 11 years. It got so childish that if a player received a technical foul he was assessed a $25 fine on the spot, before he could play again. If he got ejected, he was suspended for the rest of the season. If any player received 3 technicals over the course of the season, he was suspended for the rest of the season. These policies cleaned up the league. I made sure that the officials knew that I was going to back them. But it should NEVER have to get to this point. Yes, you must run these programs and officiate these programs with an iron fist.

Re: great feedback
 

That is also a big part of the problem. Administrators of the league do not support many of the officials and their decisions on calls and ejections. You really are not going to know what kind of administrator you will have until and incident takes place most of the time. Unfortunately the administrators often times know nothing about officiating and you can get little to no help from these people when situations get messy. I personally would rather pass. I work high school and college ball because I know what is going to happen if I have to throw someone out or even T them. I have no idea what is going to happen if I do the same in a Men's league. That is why more and more officials that I know would not even bother.

Peace

I have been there, my friend. There are two games that stick out in my mind as being points when I really, really questioned whether I ever wanted to do this again. One was a church game, and one was a mens rec game.

The first time, it was lucky that I had some other games already scheduled, or I would have retired. No doubt about it. The mens game was in my second year, and I had enough experience by then to know that game was an abhoration.

Go to the clinic. Work some non-mens (meaning more mature) games, and I'll bet the enthusiasm returns.

This is how I feel. I refuse to work adult recball. I do work a good amount of youth but I will quit that somday too. I just feel that being harassed isn't worth it. I gave out plenty of Ts in recball but its just going to decline. I'd rather work with a partner who knows the rules, mechanics and everything else in a game where I don't have fans close to me and where coaches/players have somthing to lose/gain. I'd stay if it weren't for the @$$holes but its their loss, many officials will quit recball because of them.

Was asked last year to do a Men's Rec tourney with a cash payout to the winning teams.

You think Men's Rec would be bad, can you imagine cash on the line.

Needless to say, I respectfully declined.

And it had nothing to do with the $10 per game they were offering officials either.

$10 a game, how can you turn down that kind of jack? They probably acted like that was some kind of favor to you or something. I bet that tourney went horrible.

I would have been tempted to go watch this tourney. :)

Money was part of the poblem. I took the games in a "church tournament" and a couple of days later I found out there was $1000 first place. That's when I knew I was in trouble. I play league with some of the guys that were there. It'll be interesting to see how they act this week when I show up to play. I have no trouble forgetting who said what, but I'm guessing some of them will. Oh well, I'm chalking it up to a lesson learned.

I worked a lot of youth rec league/weekend tournaments when I first started officiating. It was good experience and I made a lot of contacts that led to getting better games. When starting out, you just need to get the work and experience on the floor. I cut way back on these types of games after a few years once I had a full organized public school schedule and last year I only worked one weekend tournament as a favor to a guy who has given me a lot of games in the past (ejected a coach three minutes into the championship game). I just don't enjoy doing them anymore, the poor behavior by coaches and fans just isn't worth the 15-20 bucks a game. I know some very experienced guys who still work a lot of these games, but it is strictly for the money and they certainly give less than their best effort. This contributes to the problem because guys just want to get the game over with and don't force the coaches to behave. They just ignore them to "keep the game moving".

I worked mens rec games one time. Our association was asked to provide officials last March for a mens tournament of teams composed of police officers, firefighters and correctional officers. Worst experience of my life. Worked three games, had two fistfights, a number of ejections and more T's than I can recall. The biggest bunch of jerks I have ever seen on a basketball court. The VP of basketball for our association was there evaluating the officials and he apologized to all of us for taking the games. To top it all off, they stiffed us for part of the game fees. Took us about two months to get all of the money owed to us. I would never, ever work another mens league game, but everyone has their own pain threshold.

The team in the field argued emphatically that he caught the ball. They even told me "the ground cannot cause a fumble."

Yeah, but did you put time back on the clock??

I stayed clear. Kept thinking if someone was thrown out they'd go to the car to get the 9mm