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I saw an interesting fight the other night at a game and I am not sure it was handled correctly. The game was a 5A playoff game being shown on local TV. I don't think the camera's did it any justice but here is what I think I saw. The visitors had been playing nasty for most of the game and the officials for the most part had been letting it go. The coach had already been T'd earlier in the game for something he said so he was already sitting. The visitors were already losing by quite a bit at this point. So at about 4 minutes to go in the game, a student of the home team comes out of the stands and starts fighting with one of the players for the visitors. The penalties administrated were, Flagrent Technical on the visiting player. Ejection of the fan. There were other students who went onto the court during the fight but nothing was done to them. So we have two shots and the ball for the home team. The question I have is would you assess a technical against the home fans? Would you eject more then just the one kid who actually swung fist?
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<html>In my humble, not-very-experienced opinion, I would have asked for the ejection of every fan that stepped onto the floor. If a player can't fight, then I'd think a fan <b>certainly</b> can't run onto the floor while a game is in progress and engage in physical activity of any kind with a player. Based on that, I'd toss 'em. Secondly, what kind of sportsman ship is that ijit showing? Sportsmanship is for the players, coaches, officials, <b>and</b> fans alike. Based on that, I'd toss 'em. Now, I'm only a first year official, but I've <b>been</b> to games where a technical has been assesed on a crowd (can't find a rule in the rule book giving permission to do so, however...), so having seen and said that, I'd warn 'em once, then whack 'em :)</html>
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Tim,
I believe I would probably have called a flagrant T on the player, a technical foul on the fan and had all of the fans who came onto the floor removed. I would also had an announcement made that any further action by fans from either team would result in the game being forfeited. Is there an online story about this incident? Tony Quote:
BTW, here's the rule. 2-8-1 The officials shall: Penalize unsportsmanlike conduct by any player, coach, substitute, team attendant or follower. NOTE: The home management or game committee is responsible for spectator behavior, insofar as it can reasonably be expected to control the spectators. The officials may call fouls on either team if its supporters act in such a way as to interfere with the proper conduct of the game. Discretion must be used in calling such fouls, however, lest a team be unjustly penalized. |
When I was in junior high, my high school team was pretty good. It was a playoff game and the visiting team threw all kinds of stuff on the floor after a series of no-calls. Officials stopped play and assesed a technical. Then the respective teams coach got on the PA and basically told his fans to stop it or leave. That's the only time I've ever seen an official do this...at any level.
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[Edited by BktBallRef on Mar 5th, 2001 at 03:58 PM] |
Based on what I saw, both combatants were tossed. But the other kids were just sent back to their seats and there was only one technical. In my opinion this would be a good place to throw the technical against the fans to cause the double technical. Since I saw the game on TV and was not there in person, I don't know that something wasn't said by the player to start the fight. In that case I wouldn't T the fan, just remove him from the building.
To the credit of game managment. The fighter was taken away very quickly with the help of a policeman on the sceene. The teachers in the building quickly moved to the student section to help maintain order. By the time the game was over there were a lot more men wearing blue standing around the parimiter of the floor. No further incidents occurred. |
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But if another home team fan came out of the stands to start another fight, it could certainly be an option. 2-5-4d The referee may declare the game a forfeit when conditions warrant. |
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visitor fans are? BTW, although you say it's not unusual for this type of announcement to be made, I have never seen it done nor heard of it done. I can't think of a better way to incite a riot than threaten a forfeit. I would sooner clear the gym of all spectators than do that. |
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Once Again, BsktballRef is
It is game management's responsibility to control the crowd. PA announcements in this situation are frequently made. However, as an official you try to maintain control without resorting to "threat" tactics. Clearing the gym to finish the game might not be an unthinkable option.
Fans can cheer having fanatics being removed from the gym... And imagine... these are incidents that are NOT alcohol-induced.... (OK, so I am a bit niave.) |
For those of you who are looking for an article, I found this one. It seams there is more to the story.
http://www.rockypreps.com/rockypreps/0301long1.shtml |
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forfeit then you had better be able to back it up. I see no way to back it up, whether we have the authority or not. PA announcements to remove unruly fans or all the fans are quite different, I agree they work 99% of the time and they are the proper thing to do when the fans get out of line. |
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I have seen these types of announcements come from the AD or coach, and usually the officials are not too involved (The Ad's KNOW when something hits the floor, they need to take action). I cannot remember if the word forfiet was used, but they were threatening and did the trick.
Now, we all know where the home students sit, if there is stuff being thrown repeatedly onto the floor I don't think you have to be in mensa to know who to T up (if a warning had been issued). |
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I've seen announcements made several times and it happened in a televised college game a number of years ago. Coach got on the PA system and said something like, "Please do not throw things onto the floor or boo the referees, no matter how terrible the calls are." Earned himself a technical foul. -- I don't remember the exact words but I think it was an Oklahoma or OK State coach on in one of their games. |
This one is interesting! First, the fan came out of the 'stands' and starts fighting with one of the players. The officials call a 'flagrant technical' against the player that was fighting and the fan is ejected. I don't claim to have an absolute answer since the information about the situation is somewhat limited. But for conversation sake, wouldn't the player be within reason should someone 'out of the stands' attackes him to make some effort to defend himself? Rule 10 is clear that a player charged with fighting should be disqualified. However, the definition of fighting in Rule 4 speaks specifically in relationship to the act (of fighting) being directed at an opponent! I assume, for arguments sake, that an opponent would be a player or team personel from the opposing team and not a spectator. The fighting definition also says that it is 'not limited' necessarily to the opponents. A different can of worms are opened in my opinion, if a fan can dictate the participation of a player of the opposing team. Not to say that other schools or students would attempt to abuse this situation, but I think most of you can see where it could go. For all I know, the player charged with fighting may have done more than 'attempting to protect himself'. But here's what the officials could have had. First, no technical if the player was defending himself. The fan that came out of the stands to fight, should have been arrested on the spot for assault. Here in Tennessee, we have specific laws for such situations in a organized sporting event. Since additional kids came out of the stands and on to the floor, an administrative technical to the home team. Any and all fans that came onto the floor should have been removed from the gym. The is a classic example of an administration 'not taking care of business'! I hope that no lawyers were in attendance, but then again, maybe in this situation, it might be good. I only wonder, with this type of incident against a player, how long will it be before an official is attacked in a similar manner???
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To add to the discussion, the game came on TV again last night and from what I saw watching it the second time. The student on the front row said something and the player came after him and the fight was on the floor by the time the camera got there. Most of the others on the floor were teachers who were trying to stop the fight. But even the anouncers who were not very knowledgible on rules mention that a foul could be accessed against the home team.
To forfet the game at this point would not be an option. The game was well in hand by the home team. It was a playoff game so if the home team had to forfet, it would be a travisty for the players. Espcially since there was a 30+ point lead and the starters were all on the bench when the incident occurred. We were in the final minutes. All the players at this point were JVers and even the article mentioned that the visitors were doing everything they could to get players on the home team ejected. One of the first adults to try to calm the student section down was an assistant coach. The head coach was over there shortly thereafter and explained to the kids exactly what has been suggested be announced on the P.A. Like I said early the game finished without further incident. One incident like this should not result in forfet. Two incidents could be. [Edited by Tim Roden on Mar 6th, 2001 at 11:32 AM] |
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Tony, I hear you saying that you don't advocate doing this so I guess we are discussing theory. So in theory, you actually do have a problem backing this up because there's no way you can tell a home fan from a visitor fan. You would be guessing, and to forfeit a game based on a guess is not right by any stretch of the imagination. As for coaches, game admin, security, etc getting on the PA and threatening a forfeit, this might work but they certainly have no authority to do this. And I'm surely not going to declare a forfeit when their plan backfires. |
Tse defense rests, your honor.
The type of fan who would run onto the court and start a fight wouldn't be hurt to spot or know who he's pulling for. He's the same idiot that's me yelling at me all night every time his team gets called for a foul.
People aren't smart enough to say, "Hey, let's pretend to be fans for the other team, start a fight and get our team a forfeited win!". Even Yaws agrees with me on that one. |
Re: Tse defense rests, your honor.
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heavyweights! :) Anyway I guess we're just not going to budge on this one. I would never threaten a forfeit for fan behavior, you might. |
Happened here too.
We had the a similar situation in our area (Corvallis/Albany Oregon) this year. During a game, some chest-bumping and jawing started between two players. A large group of students poured out of the stands and got into it with the visiting player. As a good portion of the student section was either on the floor on on the sidelines and out of the stands, the officials ejected the entire student section. Game management was not pleased at first, but when given the option of doing so or forfeiting, did their job. While this may seem draconian to some, I feel that the officials should do whatever necessary to ensure the safety of all participants.
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Re: Re: Tse defense rests, your honor.
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Who?
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Who is Yaw? Do I know this person. :eek: |
Yaw!
Now that's funny. Sometimes it can be difficult to remember who posts to which forums!
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