Goaltends Called From Lead?

Up&Comer · #1 (**permalink**) Fri Mar 11, 2005, 01:39pm

I'm a relatively new official, and in reading this site in is interesting to me how so many are worried about minutae in rules and mechanics, yet many seem to miss the big things. I was watching State in Tacoma and saw an official call a goaltending as the lead from the other side of the basket. Is it correct that the lead should never call a goaltend, especially because they should never be watching the flight of the ball from underneath? Me and my two cohorts were flat out amazed since it didn't even look like a goaltend to us, and the official appeared defiant after making the call and being confronted about it by the coaches, and talked to by his partners at the next TO. Made me wonder if we're missing something, or if it was a case of the big egos and lack of basic rule knowledge this site seems to work against.

Almost Always Right · #2 (**permalink**) Fri Mar 11, 2005, 01:53pm

That official knew that was a mistake and was probably a little embarrased and therefore his defiance came out. It happens.
One thing you have to understand is after you have a good foundation as an official, the littler "minute details" are what you make you stand out as an official.
Good luck in this avocation.
AAR

Bart Tyson · #3 (**permalink**) Fri Mar 11, 2005, 01:59pm

[QUOTE] Is it correct that the lead should never call a goaltend, [QUOTE]

Never say never, However, its not a good idea for the lead to be looking at the rim.

ChuckElias · #4 (**permalink**) Fri Mar 11, 2005, 02:17pm

Quote:

Originally posted by Up&Comer
I'm a relatively new official, and in reading this site in is interesting to me how so many are worried about minutae in rules and mechanics, yet many seem to miss the big things.

Glad you're so qualified to draw that conclusion as an admittedly "relatively new official". Maybe pull back on judging State-tournament-qualified officials until you're a "relatively experienced official".

Quote:

Is it correct that the lead should never call a goaltend, especially because they should never be watching the flight of the ball from underneath?

No, that's not correct. It is the general rule that the Lead official watches bodies and the outside official(s) watch the flight of the ball. But there are times, particularly in transition, when the Lead official has the best (or only) look and has to make the GT/BI call. In a settled frontcourt offensive set, though, you are generally correct.

Quote:

Me and my two cohorts were flat out amazed since it didn't even look like a goaltend to us

Mr. Grammar Guy will refrain from comment, other than to wonder if you are suggesting that the officials for the game should sit in the bleachers 50 feet away from the play.

monfanz · #5 (**permalink**) Fri Mar 11, 2005, 03:07pm

Quote:

Is it correct that the lead should never call a goaltend, especially because they should never be watching the flight of the ball from underneath?

No, that's not correct. It is the general rule that the Lead official watches bodies and the outside official(s) watch the flight of the ball. But there are times, particularly in transition, when the Lead official has the best (or only) look and has to make the GT/BI call. In a settled frontcourt offensive set, though, you are generally correct.[/quote][/b]

Completey agree Chuck. For example, I'm working a JV Boys game couple years ago (2-man)..fast break and I'm going from T to L. A1 goes up for a lay-up, ball hits the backboard and is clearly on the way down when B1 pins it against the board. I sucked on my whistle and took a quick look and saw that my partner wasn't even at halfcourt yet. TWEET!

ChiliBob · #6 (**permalink**) Fri Mar 11, 2005, 05:49pm

I agree with all here. Generally the lead would not have this call however, I had a similar call (interference) earlier this year myself. Boys varsity, A1 drives for as layup (was at the end of a transition play), is fouled and, as I made the call I closed and stepping onto the court (yes, I beat them to the end line), I glance to see if the ball was going in the basket. I saw the ball rolling around on the rim. Player A1 jumps back up and tries to put it back in. Waive off the basket, shoot two. 98 out of 100 times I don't see this from the end line but...it happens. By the way, my partner was delayed getting up the floor as he though he might have had an injured player situation.

ref18 · #7 (**permalink**) Fri Mar 11, 2005, 07:13pm

My first JV boys game, I'm the old lead, so on the fast break I become the new trail. I'm working with a vetran official, who doesn't move that well, A1 goes for a layup, while the ball is in the net, A2 contacts it, I'm so stunned I don't know what to do. Thankfully my partner had only gotten to the free throw line extended while I was at half court, and he was able to see the play and call BI.

RookieDude · #8 (**permalink**) Sat Mar 12, 2005, 12:27am

Quote:

Originally posted by ChuckElias

Quote:

Originally posted by Up&Comer
I'm a relatively new official, and in reading this site in is interesting to me how so many are worried about minutae in rules and mechanics, yet many seem to miss the big things.

Glad you're so qualified to draw that conclusion as an admittedly "relatively new official". Maybe pull back on judging State-tournament-qualified officials until you're a "relatively experienced official".

Quote:

Is it correct that the lead should never call a goaltend, especially because they should never be watching the flight of the ball from underneath?

No, that's not correct. It is the general rule that the Lead official watches bodies and the outside official(s) watch the flight of the ball. But there are times, particularly in transition, when the Lead official has the best (or only) look and has to make the GT/BI call. In a settled frontcourt offensive set, though, you are generally correct.

Quote:

Me and my two cohorts were flat out amazed since it didn't even look like a goaltend to us

Mr. Grammar Guy will refrain from comment, other than to wonder if you are suggesting that the officials for the game should sit in the bleachers 50 feet away from the play.

You nailed it Chuck...I was at the Tacoma Dome when the play in question happened.

The Lead WAS in transition on a steal and breakaway layup.
The Lead was even with the players on the court.
The Lead saw the ball hit the backboard on the layup and then be pinned by the defensive player.
The Lead blew his whistle and made a call he wishes he had passed on.
...I know...I was the Lead.

Other than that...it's been a fun tournament. Out of the 12 officials that are here, 9 have had state final games...tough competition but a great learning experience and an oportunity to meet new people that have the same passions.

BktBallRef · #9 (**permalink**) Sat Mar 12, 2005, 01:02am

Sounds like GT to me. Why do you wish you had passed on it?

I had a similiar play about three weeks ago, except I was C. Shot was missed. I was straight lined on the tip and couldn't tell if it was BI. L had a better view and waved it off.

Talked to the coach a week later. He said the call was correct.

Adam · #10 (**permalink**) Sat Mar 12, 2005, 01:38am

Rookie, you wish you had passed on it? Was the ball still on the way up?

RookieDude · #11 (**permalink**) Sun Mar 13, 2005, 11:03am

Quote:

Originally posted by Snaqwells
Rookie, you wish you had passed on it? Was the ball still on the way up?

It was close...like to see it on film.

Quote:

Originally posted by BktBallRef
Sounds like GT to me. Why do you wish you had passed on it?

See above.

P.S. Good to be back home...thanks for the quick rule references while I was at state...heading out to the race track today!

drothamel · #12 (**permalink**) Sun Mar 13, 2005, 02:32pm

Up&Comer and RookieDude--

Small world, ain't it. Now how often does that happen. One guy sees a play, and we get a first-hand explanation. Sounds like a good call to me. Sometimes you gotta do that. Chances are, if you reacted to it as a GT, then it probably was. Congrats on working the State.

dblref · #13 (**permalink**) Sun Mar 13, 2005, 10:25pm

I agree that it is kewl to have someone describe what they thought was a "bad" call and have that official tell why they called what they did.

Speaking of state finals, I spent yesterday in Richmond watching the VA finals. There were 6 games (A, AA, & AAA boys and girls). My tochus(sp?) is sore from sitting all day. Saw 6 good games and some really good officiating. Also saw 1 guy give a travel signal for a spot throw-in violation. Saw a team request a timeout when they didn't have one. Officials assessed the T, and then put the ball right back in play. Coach never asked for the timeout after the freethrows were shot. I aksed the official about it later (I knew him), and he said they talked about it after the game and realized they never granted the timeout. This was in the AAA girls game and the defending champs blew a 15 point lead with 7 minutes to go (stopped playing defense) and then tried to stall with a 2 point lead and 2:35 to go -- lost by 5.

zebraman · #14 (**permalink**) Sun Mar 13, 2005, 10:36pm

Never say never, but I just can't imagine that I'll ever call a GT or BI from the lead position. Even on a breakaway, I hope I'm "staying with shooter" and not looking up at the basket. My C should have been aware enough of the turnover to at least get to halfcourt and have a decent view of it.

Z

Jeremy Hohn · #15 (**permalink**) Tue Mar 15, 2005, 08:16am

Quote:

Originally posted by zebraman
Never say never, but I just can't imagine that I'll ever call a GT or BI from the lead position. Even on a breakaway, I hope I'm "staying with shooter" and not looking up at the basket. My C should have been aware enough of the turnover to at least get to halfcourt and have a decent view of it.

Z

Amen Z....amen...