Was just reading the thread about the no-call on the flop at the end of the game and it got me thinking. How do you judge a flop? Some are really obvious because there is no contact. But others are harder to judge. One rule of thumb I've heard is that if the players head moves backward first, it's a flop. If there's contact, the torso will move backward first. Any other criteria that you use to judge a flop?

If a player really got hit in the chest, their feet are not going to be in the same place. In other words, if the defender falls like a tree, it is a flop. If the player's entire body moves from that spot, it is probably a PC foul. Or at the very least it is not a flop.

That is a rule of thumb I use. It does not mean it always applies to every situation.

Peace

I almost forgot.
 

It also does not help the player when they yell and scream when contact occurs either.

Peace

I've never got that scientific about it. If you are watching the defense, you can tell if the defender got displaced or if the defender caused all the movement by being an actor.

Z

Was the contact through the defender or was the seperation immediate?

A player yelling is also a dead give away, if you actually take severe contact in the chest the most that should be coming out of your mouth is an ooofff sound.

Has anyone ever called a T for a flop? I just can't imagine bringing myself to do it unless it became continued throughout the game. As this thread suggests, hard to judge.

A good indication of the flop is when the player starts falling over before ball carrier has even made any contact. That and I can't stand when they grunt and make load noises.

Another thing - The other day I had a player A1 who my partner (trail) says was falling back before B1 made contact. On my vantage, at some point B1 lowered the shoulder into the torso of A1 and A1 went down.

My partner and I talking at halftime, he said that A1 was flopping. I said I saw contact. He said that he was flopping first though. I didn't think that was relevant, since contact WAS eventually made and clearly shoulder to torso. Your thoughts?

A good piece of advice I heard was to watch the knees of the defender. If the knees give, or buckle, it's usually a flop. I called a T for flopping this year, but it was on a shooter who landed, grunted and threw himself on the floor. It was a blowout game in favor of the flopper's team, they had been warned, so it was as much a game management call as any.

I HATE the thought of rewarding a defender on a flop. Unless the offensive player created some pretty severe, obvious contact, I'm going to call a block. If the defender complains, I'll tell him that he flopped so hard it was hard to tell if the opponent even touched him. He should get the message.

OBTW, I do believe this post puts me just one shy of the 1,000 mark. Not that I'm keeping track or anything :D

"I HATE the thought of rewarding a defender on a flop. Unless the offensive player created some pretty severe, obvious contact, I'm going to call a block. If the defender complains, I'll tell him that he flopped so hard it was hard to tell if the opponent even touched him. He should get the message."

The thing is, if the defender is in legal guarding position and not moving their feet even (so its not even close, I know feet moving is irrelevant sometimes), I have a hard time calling a block. Perhaps a no call.

Remember, a player can be moving backwards when contact is made and still have LGP. If the defender starts falling before contact, and the ball handler still plows through him, I'm likely to call the pc and still warn the player and coach.
I saw several times this year when the player would have drawn the PC had he not flopped. Instead, he (it was a he every time I saw it this year) aided the offensive player by getting out of the way and there was no contact.

Well said!

I think the responses to the original post mention good indicators, but I wouldn't be comfortable saying certain things are a dead give away.

You could have a player keep his/her feet completely still/planted and draw a PC...you could also have a player yell or scream to draw attention, but still have a PC.

pls consider this...
 

Rule 4
SECTION 23 GUARDING

ART. 3 . . . After the initial legal guarding position is obtained:

a. The guard is not required to have either or both feet on the floor or continue facing the opponent.
b. The guard may move laterally or obliquely to maintain position, provided it is not toward the opponent when contact occurs.
c. The guard may raise hands or jump within his/her own vertical plane.
d. The guard may turn or duck to absorb the shock of imminent contact.

The NFHS says that for it to be a flop, we have to deem it as "ACTING".(In so many words)
Also - You can have contact and still have a flop.
AAR

Yep. If you don't think the contact displaced the defender, and that the player displaced himself in an attempt to get a call where one wasn't deserved (the no-call that started this thread is a prime example, although the replay was inconclusive in spite of the ESPN "analyst's" comment that it was clear), then it's a flop even with contact.

The block/charge call is arguably one of the most exciting calls we make. 1/2 the gym will oftentimes disagree. So many factor must be considered. Hate to reward bad D, hate to reward bad O, LGP, O pushing off, angle, had the shooter left his feet and D took away his landing space, not that it should matter but is this consistant with my partner. All this is consider and decided on in a split second because we gotta hit it hard and possibly sell it in order to keep a coach from blowing to many gaskets.

Is there something we can say ALWAYS happens on a block or charge?
I think it's an experience thing. Usually you can tell when a player is "in drama". At every camp I've been to they made it an emphasis that if there's contact where someone hits the floor, we better get something. If they're acting they get the message pretty quick.

How's that again?

I think Snaq's response is spot on. If the contact displaces the defender, that's one thing. Give him the PC foul. But if the contact didn't displace him, and he flopped to try and elicit a foul call, that's "contact and still have a flop". I have a hard time giving him the PC on this one.

There have been a few responses talking about a player ducking for cover, etc. on this play and implying that he is playing legal defense we shouldn't call a block just because of the flop. IMHO this behavior is/can be a significant game control issue.

The flopper is using deception and coercion attempting to get a call he isn't entitled to. I say coercion because he is trying to put the hapless official in the position of having to call something because there are bodies on the floor. He's trying the use the "rules" against us. We all know how this can incite coaches, players and fans. And the entire brouhaha comes about because the defender flopped.

Don't get me wrong, if the defender flops, but the offender still makes signficant contact, we probably need to have the PC foul on that. But short of that, if you have to have a call on a flop, don't reward the defender. He'll only keep doing it if he feels he's successful.

Some people suggest warning on this. If you can no-call it and warn him and/or his coach, great. However, if you give the defender the call then warn him, even if he doesn't do it again, he's still gotten away with one. He played you and won.

BITS, I'm having a hard time agreeing with your post.

A defensive player is allowed to move to maintain guarding position. He's allowed to lean back, position himself and cover up to absorb contact. There's a heck of a lot he can do legally. If the dribbler makes illegal contact with a defender who's leaning back (what you're calling a flop) I cannot see any call other but a PC foul.

Again, what you're calling a "flop" in this case is perfectly legal. And you should not penalize the defender for doing what he's entitled to do.

OTOH if the defender leans back & hits the floor with no or minimal contact then we have a flop. How we deal with that is another discussion but I have never T'ed a player for flopping.

I'm not calling a leaning defender a flop. Or even a legally retreating defender. Those, of course, are legal. It's when he falls back or down partially or entirely under his own power to make it look like contact occurred, that's what I'm labeling as a flop.

There is the obvious case of the defender hitting the deck without any contact. There are more subtle cases where there is some contact but the defender flies backward, acting as if the contact was more severe that it was, trying to get the call.

I'm definitely not arguing that we tag a defender who is playing legal defense. But if he's acting or acentuating the contact, in other words deliberatly trying to trick or coerce you into giving him the call, that I have a problem with.

I may be out in left field on this, but I have a problem with a flop even if the defender is playing legal defense in every other regard. Just an example, a defender has LGP, he's moving backward while guarding (and still legal), but at the point of contact he intentionally flops--whether he goes to the floor or just flies back a step or two--to make the contact appear more severe than it actually was. If I can tell he's flopping, I do not want to give him the call on that.

Wait a second Dan. . .
 

"OTOH if the defender leans back & hits the floor with no or MINIMAL CONTACT then we have a flop. How we deal with that is another discussion but I have never T'ed a player for flopping."
This is your quote to BITS after you asked me how is that so.
So you agree with me? You can have contact(however minimal) and still have a flop.
The other points you made are absolutely correct.
AAR

Re: pls consider this...
 

I don't see what that has to do with anything. Falling backwards isn't turning or ducking.

Re: Wait a second Dan. . .
 

I don't think I'm agreeing with you, but that's why I asked to begin with. :)

My view is a player leaning/falling backwards (a flop) doesn't remove the posibility of the PC. If there's no contact or minimal contact then I don't have a PC, flop or not.

It seemed to me that you were saying a player leaning/falling backwards (a flop) completely removes the possibility of a PC. IOW if the defensive player leans back he could get squished into a bloody stain under the basket but you're not gonna give him the PC.

This is exactly what I disagree with.

If the contact is worthy of a whistle on the dribbler you cannot take it away because you suspect the defender's "motives". I don't care if he launches himself backwards over your head doing the Dean-scream and lands in the 19th row. Give him the call. ;)

Re: Re: pls consider this...
 

Is it movement towards the opponent? ;)

JUST leaning back or starting to fall early is of course not a flop, they have to be "acting" in order to coerce a call.
That's my point.
AAR

I guess I still don't get it.

If you decide a player is "acting" then you won't give him the call?

We all know a flop when we see one. 50 out of 100 times there is no contact at all the player just bales out. the other 50% of the time they fall too early.
I use the measure that you have to stand and take the contact to get the call. If you bale out so sorry it is going to be incedental contact and NC.

I have never in my 18 plus years used the T in this situation, I will have a comment for the player about the flop and warn them of the consequenses of doing it again. It always seems to work. A prudent word to the coah if he/she complains about the lack of a call in that situation that the player floped helps set the guidelines if it happens again.

Remember there has to be contact for it to be a foul. So if they go down without contact it is a flop, if there is contact there is the possiblity of a call.

I had a partner early in the year who called a blocking foul on kid who had position, but started to fall before there was contact, which put him in a position where he upended the airborn shooter.
The fall to the floor took the player out of the legal guarding position.

The B/C call is not difficult, there are specific criteria that must occur for it to be either to be called, I think the reason that people think it is the hardest call to make is that noone other than the officials understand the rule.

Back to the flop.
you make that call you deal with the consequences, your choice.

Man you all are making this a lot harder than it needs to be.

Did contact occur that was THROUGH THE DEFENDER? If not than B, to varying degrees, is flopping.

How you deal with it is the question. T? No-call? Block? PC with a warning to stop trying to sell it? I have used all of those but the T over the years.

Geeze, imagine that. We got the nerve to be discussing basketball officiating on the basketball official's discussion forum. Whatever could we be thinking... :rolleyes:

(Still got that bug I see...)

I do not see the difficulty;
no contact = flop (no contact no foul)
Your decision of what to do with the player that flops.

Contact = possibility of a foul based on the criteria set forth in the rules.

The flop like so many other issues we see needs to be handled with descretion. I think that the Nc and a word of advise is probaly how we all choose to handle the first one, I have not seen the second one after that.

I believe what the rules committee is trying to accomplish by making this a POE is to avoid more injuries. Taking a charge is a hard thing to do, and for those of us who have played, it can hurt when done right. So, it seems as though I see a larger number of players trying to take the easy way out - trying to "draw the call" instead of trying to "draw the charge". This leads to more players on the floor, and more chances for turned ankles and other problems. And, as mentioned before, the flop is nothing more than deception, which the committee feels has no part in the game. So, that said, I haven't called one this year, even though I've seen some examples. One that seems obvious to me is where the offensive player is coming straight down the lane, from 12:00 position to 6:00 position, and the defender falls back towards 4:00. (Does that make sense?) If the contact actually caused the defender to go down, they would fall towards 6:00 as well. It seems like a T is a harsh call to make in this instance, but maybe we do need to make it more often to clean up this aspect. I remember a rec league game I did where a defender grabbed the shirt of the offensive player and pulled him down on top of him to make it look like a charge. I happened to be in just the right spot to see it and called the T. This is obviously deception - why should flopping be any different?

In a perfect world, this may be true. But in my world it's a game management nightmare to call the PC foul on the play where the defender "helps himself" to the floor. First, the offensive player and coach will think they can buy that call and people will be "helping themselves to the floor" the whole game. And the other coach will think you got fooled on the play.

No call, block, T, choose one. But when the defender helps himself to the floor or tries to embellish the contact, I'll NEVER call it a PC foul.

Re: Re: Re: pls consider this...
 

POE pg 71 "The "actor" falls to the court as though he or she were knocked down by the force of the contact."

I remember my HS Coach teaching us to take a charge. He would set us up with LGP and then have our teammates just mow us over. You know how most really good basketball fights occur in practice once everyone gets to know each other and competes daily in practice. Plus, teammates will foul each other harder then they foul opponents. We would just crunch each other. Coach always said we would get used to standing in there and taking it so we wouldn't fear contact in the games. I don't think any of us ever got used to the bruising.

I understand what the rules committee is trying to do i.e. keeping players off the floor, avoiding injuries, etc.; but I do think that the T is too harsh. Everyone on this board knows that calling T's doesn't help to make a game pretty, that is why they are only assessed as a means of cleaning up that which is already, or becoming ugly. I don't think that the flop falls into this category. Usually, you can clean it up with some verbal communication, or calling a block. I agree with what some have said that it falls along the same line as the old elbow swinging T. The T was just too harsh, once they added the violation, it was easy to clean it up. Also, I haven't seen many games where "flopping" is as real problem. I have done many games where it never happens, and in extreme cases, it may happen twice in a game. This is one POE that I just don't see, at least where I am.

Bottom Line
 

"I guess I still don't get it.
If you decide a player is "acting" then you won't give him the call?"

Absolutely Not - That is why the Fed. put it in. Their "acting" has been proven to cause safety concerns and affect the integrity of the game so therefore if they try it, it should be penalized accordingly. Block with a warning or T. NFHS says T and I have called it both ways.
However, I did not get as much support from my association when I've called the T as I did when I called the block and warned the player and the bench. I am rambling, sorry.
AAR

Re: Re: Re: Re: pls consider this...
 

Snake,

A defender who leans backward before or during contact is not acting.

He's taking a charge.

If there's obviously no contact the POE says to T him up.

You T him up?

Re: Bottom Line
 

Well, maybe you're smart enough to know that a defender is "acting" when he gets squashed by the dribbler going to the basket.

I'm not. Not even the fed POE can make me that smart.

Amen, Dan...
My patience is sorely tested every time one of my players, who have been taught extensively all the prerogatives they gain by first ESTABLISHING LGP, are called for blocks or no calls by officials who do not have a thorough knowledge of the actions allowed to MAINTAIN LGP. Do you think my 5'6 PG is not gonna use every nuance of the rules to avoid full contact from a driving 6'2 forward???
Sorry some of you guys are so insecure that you have to defend your honor and not let a 9th grader 'get over on you'.

What happened to the concept of rewarding good defense??

I think we all know a dead-up flop when we see it but any contact that displaces the defender in this sitch warrants a PC call even if you have the psychic powers to divine the defender started moving backwards prior to contact. Don't let a mere POE jaundice your judgement.

He's allowed to move backwards. We're all talking about the situation where the defender helps himself to the floor or adds a little emphasis to the contact to try to buy a call. That you're not going to get, not from me.

I'll still call the PC....

...if the dribble still plows him over.

Just because he flops doesn't absolve the offense from actual contact.

I guess we disagree on this then. No biggy.

First of all, we're not in the business of rewarding anything. Good defense has it's own reward. But a player throwing himself to the ground to make a small contact look like a big one is not good defense. It's play acting.

I'm glad to hear that you're teaching your players about LGP. Honestly too few coaches even understand it, let alone teach their players about it.

But all that aside, how do you feel and how tested is that precious patience of your when one of your guys gets called for a PC when you think the other team's guard suffered some minor contact but mostly put on an oscar winning performance? Are you standing and applauding along with the other team's fans about their great defense? Or are you getting hot under the collar because their guy flopped and your guy got screwed by good acting?

How loud is your applause when that call that rewarded such "good defense" earned your star player his 5th foul in a close game? Is your applause all the louder still for believing that had the other team's actor not put on such a stellar performance, the contact probably would have been no-called?

And if perchance one of these little acting jobs gets you a little steamed, I'm sure you'll feel comforted to hear the official remind you to not be "so insecure that you have to defend your honor and not let a 9th grader 'get over on you'."

But perhaps I don't give you enough credit. After all, he had LGP and we are supposed to be rewarding good defense.
:rolleyes:

"....In a perfect world, this may be true. But in my world it's a game management nightmare to call the PC foul on the play where the defender "helps himself" to the floor. First, the offensive player and coach will think they can buy that call and people will be "helping themselves to the floor" the whole game. And the other coach will think you got fooled on the play.

No call, block, T, choose one. But when the defender helps himself to the floor or tries to embellish the contact, I'll NEVER call it a PC foul."


quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by Rich Fronheiser

"...Sure, sure. Now I'll see this crap next season and they'll tell me that you didn't have a problem with it."

Rich....
I don't think I've seen anyone make that "auto-T" for a 'flop' this season.... (Agree on your statement re: game management!)

Hey....battle @ Watertown tonight....Catholic Central vs. Randolph for spot in next week's State Tournament.

wl



[Edited by imaref on Mar 12th, 2005 at 11:26 AM]

Where in 4-23 does it say LGP is maintained as you are falling to the floor?

If you have this falling BEFORE the plowing through, you no-longer have LGP, and to call anything but a block is not supported by rules or common sense.

What are you calling if B1 is backpeddling and they trip and fall and then A1 lowers their shoulder to regain balance and falls over the prone B1? ;)

Where does it say LGP is not maintained? Even so, there is no requirement for LGP for a PC foul. Common sense says that if B1's action does not increase or create the contact, B1 can't be guilty of a foul. All flopping usually does is decrease or eliminate the contact that would otherwise occur, if any. To call a block just because of a flop is more of a power statement...if you think you can fool me, I'll show you. I've tried the block route on a flop...it felt simply wrong.

If B1 is backpeddling and falls then A1 falls over him...nothing at all. B1 was already on the floor, the only contact was A1 falling over B1...and B1 is entitled to that spot. A1 got unlucky.

To add one more comment....

The difference in the latter case is when the contact occurs. If B1 is already on the ground by the time of contact, I agree, no PC. If B1 still takes contact in the torso in the process of falling...PC.

[Edited by Camron Rust on Mar 13th, 2005 at 03:14 AM]

There are reasons the FED wants it to be called a T. It's dangerous, especially in the lane area, and it's unsporting.

When I first started officiating Rodman was making the flop the norm in the NBA, and it trickled down to where coaches were teaching their players to do it. In our meetings we discussed how to handle it, and we all thought a T was too harsh, so an if you flop it's a block rule was installed.

Within 2 weeks flopping stopped, because we penalized the act uniformally. Whenever a coach would question a block with, "Where's the contact?" A simple, "Then why was your player on the floor?" Did the trick.

Now I know that is drastic, but flopping was happening much more in the early 90's than it is now.

It's a no-call from me more now, but I will call it a block if they hinder the offensive players path or landing with minimal contact, especially in the lane. Both the no-call and the block call are followed with a stop flopping warning. It's rare to ever have to call a block, on a flop, on that player again.

I'd like to see an official warning and then the T, that covers the entire team, just like the delay of game technical.

Amen BITS. . .

I was going to go to this game, but ended up watching the Badgers on TV and then stayed home. 20 point game, but was Randolph 17-0 after the first quarter followed by a 14-0 Catholic Central run. In the game I had Catholic Central, they fell behind 8 to Abundant Life in the first quarter before putting them away. Eventually those slow starts catch up with you.

Thought about heading down to the Kohl Center to watch some of the girls' tourney, but my wife needed some assistance with the baby last night at home.

It'll be different watching those 3-person crews on TV next season. 'Bout time.

Whacked someone for flopping today. Had warned him once earlier. In the middle of the lane, absolutely NO CONTACT, not even slight contact, A1 does a pancake kicking his legs out and landing face first. It didn't even make sense that someone would be "pushed" like that. B2 was coming down the lane as well and had I not blown the play dead may have had to jump over him. To top it all off, he gave me a look asking where the call was.

When I gave him "the call" he and his team went ballastic, letting me know there was no rule against flopping. They assured me that rule was only in hockey (is it? Not a hockey fan here...).

Ironically, the team lost by one point. The flop technical was mid-way through the first half but of course they started cussing me out after the game blaming my made up technical foul on their loss. I simply sat at the table taking numbers down.

This same bunch of goofballs got called for a really easy 5 second call, when they let me know the person has to be right up next to them and not if they are a few feet away. I asked what rule they were referencing, they told me to watch basketball, that its called like that. I smiled and moved down court.

I was going to go to this game, but ended up watching the Badgers on TV and then stayed home. 20 point game, but was Randolph 17-0 after the first quarter followed by a 14-0 Catholic Central run. In the game I had Catholic Central, they fell behind 8 to Abundant Life in the first quarter before putting them away. Eventually those slow starts catch up with you.

Thought about heading down to the Kohl Center to watch some of the girls' tourney, but my wife needed some assistance with the baby last night at home.

It'll be different watching those 3-person crews on TV next season. 'Bout time. [/QUOTE]
Rich...
My partner and I went over to Fort Atkinson HS Friday night to watch Randolph vs. Racine Lutheran. It was a pretty good game to watch....Randolph started slow with the game very similar to the game we had when they played Wayland Acadamy. There was a better match up in personnel...but the Lutheran slow down failed to stay disiplined and Randolph got Lutheran into a run game and it was over. I didn't think Randolph (Sat. nite) would have as easy a game with Catholic Central with all the news reports about their big player John Henney. Apparently he got into foul trouble and his replacement wasn't a good match for Tillema. It appears Randolph will get its 4th State title in a row!

Three crew couldn't come soon enough! I may get an opportunity to get to the KOHL to catch some games. My partner may get his brother's tickets...if so, I'd like to catch Randolph one last time....but hope to see Madison Memorial and Beloit Memorial if possible. Thought I'd get a chance to see my 'ol Alma Mater....Janesville Craig get to State....but Beloit held all the cards Saturday night. Felt bad about Elkhorn missing out too! (We've got Madison Memorial v. Madison West next year on our schedule). Hope Boyce Hodge has mellowed out since his tirade last year. Heard he made some negative statements about the officials who had that game. He seemed to be a good guy when I met him at last October's WBCA Hall of Fame dinner. He and his wife sat at the same table with me. He thought I looked too young to be receiving my 30 year plaque from WBCA. Guess my "bald" head makes me look younger????

Oh well....time to relax and do my NCAA brackets and wean myself from basketball officiating for another season until the summer camps and "sweat leagues".

Take care...maybe we'll bump into each other in Madison this weekend!

wl

[Edited by imaref on Mar 13th, 2005 at 11:01 PM]

Me too.
7th grade CYO tournament championship game.
Kid put both arms up in the air and fell backwards as if he were going to make a snow angel. (I think I am going to use the "snow angel" as my standard for a flopping T.) There wasn't any contact with the dribbler who simply went around him and laid it in. I withheld the whistle until the lay-up was made then T'd him.

His team lost by 1.

Rich...
My partner and I went over to Fort Atkinson HS Friday night to watch Randolph vs. Racine Lutheran. It was a pretty good game to watch....Randolph started slow with the game very similar to the game we had when they played Wayland Acadamy. There was a better match up in personnel...but the Lutheran slow down failed to stay disiplined and Randolph got Lutheran into a run game and it was over. I didn't think Randolph (Sat. nite) would have as easy a game with Catholic Central with all the news reports about their big player John Henney. Apparently he got into foul trouble and his replacement wasn't a good match for Tillema. It appears Randolph will get its 4th State title in a row!

Three crew couldn't come soon enough! I may get an opportunity to get to the KOHL to catch some games. My partner may get his brother's tickets...if so, I'd like to catch Randolph one last time....but hope to see Madison Memorial and Beloit Memorial if possible. Thought I'd get a chance to see my 'ol Alma Mater....Janesville Craig get to State....but Beloit held all the cards Saturday night. Felt bad about Elkhorn missing out too! (We've got Madison Memorial v. Madison West next year on our schedule). Hope Boyce Hodge has mellowed out since his tirade last year. Heard he made some negative statements about the officials who had that game. He seemed to be a good guy when I met him at last October's WBCA Hall of Fame dinner. He and his wife sat at the same table with me. He thought I looked too young to be receiving my 30 year plaque from WBCA. Guess my "bald" head makes me look younger????

Oh well....time to relax and do my NCAA brackets and wean myself from basketball officiating for another season until the summer camps and "sweat leagues".

Take care...maybe we'll bump into each other in Madison this weekend!

wl

[Edited by imaref on Mar 13th, 2005 at 11:01 PM] [/B][/QUOTE]

I have some comments about the Boyce incident, but I think they are better addressed by email. I'll send them to you if I get a chance this week. But I will say that I'd work there and work for Boyce anytime. I worked one of his games against Memorial last season at West. Even though they ended up losing the game, Boyce was very gracious to us before, during, and after the game. I have West again next season, hosting Parker on a Saturday afternoon.