Fed rule - foul away from ball on inbound

[womens_hoops]

Hi again...

Last night in rec league (which is governed by high school, fed rules), we were down 6 in the final couple minutes. We wanted to start fouling, and we especially wanted to start fouling one player who is a poor shooter (hack-a-shaq strategy).

We called time out; our opponents had possession, and were going to inbound after the timeout.

I went and asked the refs:

1. after the inbound, can we just wrap her up and foul her even though she doesn't get the ball? In other words, is a foul away from the ball like that ok as a common foul or is it always an intentional foul?

2. could we do the same thing even before the inbound so that no time runs off the clock at all?

The two refs disagreed on the answer. So I said: I'm taking it to the Official Forum.

What's the right call?

thanks much.

[Jurassic Referee]

Under NFHS rules, that is a classic intentional foul.

R4-19-3--"An intentional foul is a personal or technical foul designed to stop or keep the clock from starting, to neutralize an opponent's obvious advantageous position, contact away from the ball or not playing the ball."

[tmp44]

Read Monfanz's post about the game s/he had last night, specifically regarding the 2nd intentional foul called. I agree with JR..no brainer intentional foul.

http://www.officialforum.com/thread/19037

[Mark Padgett]

Originally posted by womens_hoops
Hi again...

Last night in rec league (which is governed by high school, fed rules), we were down 6 in the final couple minutes. We wanted to start fouling, and we especially wanted to start fouling one player who is a poor shooter (hack-a-shaq strategy).

We called time out; our opponents had possession, and were going to inbound after the timeout.

I went and asked the refs:

1. after the inbound, can we just wrap her up and foul her even though she doesn't get the ball? In other words, is a foul away from the ball like that ok as a common foul or is it always an intentional foul?

2. could we do the same thing even before the inbound so that no time runs off the clock at all?

The two refs disagreed on the answer. So I said: I'm taking it to the Official Forum.

What's the right call?

thanks much.

This is such a clear cut case that the ref who didn't think intentionals should be called deserves to be locked in a closet with Bobby Knight and Ron Artest.

[Snake~eyes]

Off ball wrap around is easy intentional foul call.

[womens_hoops]

thanks much!

so, in essence, if you want to foul at the end and only commit a common foul, you have to wait for the inbound and wrap up the player with the ball.

appreciate the help, as always.

[jforbes]

It was a good idea, but don't say "wrap-up". You can have a common foul for illegal use of hands even tho the ball is not in bounds. Just make it look like you are playing defense on the player. But the way they would foul shaq like the others have said is a no-brainer int. foul.

[JugglingReferee]

Originally posted by womens_hoops
thanks much!

so, in essence, if you want to foul at the end and only commit a common foul, you have to wait for the inbound and wrap up the player with the ball.

appreciate the help, as always.

I'm not so sure.

Foul (such as a hold) a person (not hard) making a cut to the inbounder before the ball is inbounded. If the officials call it correctly, and you "commit" the foul correctly, this is just a common foul during a live ball. No times should come off the clock. If it does, bring it to their attention. They MUST correct the obvious timing error.

I had a coach tell me he was going to do this once. Good strategy in my mind. Some argue that it's intentional if he tells you about it. In my mind, he's just helping me call a foul that wants to be called, before it gets escalated to an excessive contact foul.

[BktBallRef]

Originally posted by womens_hoops
thanks much!

so, in essence, if you want to foul at the end and only commit a common foul, you have to wait for the inbound and wrap up the player with the ball.

No!

A wrap-up is usually an easy intentional foul.

A wrap-up away from the ball is ALWAYS an easy intentional foul.

PLAY THE BALL!

[womens_hoops]

got ya -- thanks for the clarification. I will pass it on to the team!

[jforbes]

That is why I said don't say "wrap-up". You can hold or impede the progress of the player & get a common foul called. A two hand bear hug is an intentional foul any where on the court.

[bradfordwilkins]

On that note, what happens if a foul occurs BEFORE the throw-in? Don't have my book with me.

Thanks

[jforbes]

It can be an intentional or a common foul, depending how the player is going to impede the progress of the player. You can have a common foul with the clock not running. The ball is live once it is at the disposal of the person throwing the ball inbounds.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally posted by JugglingReferee
[/B]

I had a coach tell me he was going to do this once. Good strategy in my mind. Some argue that it's intentional if he tells you about it. In my mind, he's just helping me call a foul that wants to be called, before it gets escalated to an excessive contact foul. [/B][/QUOTE]Um, Mike, did you happen to miss the FED POE that states that it is an intentional foul in this case?

2000-01 NFHS rulebook-- POE #5 on p.68-- "Acts that must be deemed intentional include when a coach/player says 'watch, we're going to foul'."

Iow, according to the rules, it is an intentional foul. Now whether you're actually gonna call it or not is a whole 'nother debate. Personally, if the defensive player makes a play on the ball, I'm not gonna call it intentional.

[bob jenkins]

Originally posted by bradfordwilkins
On that note, what happens if a foul occurs BEFORE the throw-in? Don't have my book with me.

Thanks

Depends.

If you mean before the throwin STARTS, then the foul will be an IT or FT (contact that's not I or T will be ignored).

If you mean before the throw in ENDS (but after it starts), then it's just like any other live ball foul.