Doing a playoff game...small gym..home team supporters have "thunder sticks"...those annoying things you bang together. Visiting coach asks us to ban them during play, especially when their team was shooting free throws, for being "artificial noisemakers." I didn't have a good reason to object, so game management made an announcement. Of course home team supporters booed a little bit, but complied. Do "thunder sticks" fall under "artificial noisemakers" as opposed to, for example, an air horn?

Of course they are artificial noisemakers. What would you call them?

If they were genuine noisemakers, would they be okay?

The thunder sticks were big a one point. I only saw those wooden train whistles once....anyone else ever see those used?

Thundersticks aren't so bad. I had a game once where every time a visitor went to shoot free throws, a fan would turn on a Barry Manilow tape really loud. Talk about distracting!!!

I had him ejected and put in a closet where he was forced to listen to two hours of ZZTop.

Just kidding.

BktBallRef,

I was trying to find out if there is a distinction between an air horn, for example, and an item that takes effort to make a sound.

Here's one I have not seen. 1st round D-1 high school playoff tourney I refereed last week. Visiting student fans brought cafeteria "lunch trays"....raised them in unison and knocked on them....tapped on them and scratched on them producing a series of different sounds. Pretty creative! :) Game management observed the students...didn't feel they were being obnoxious....matter of fact, they were quite well behaved and having a great time!

My partner and I talked about it during a deadball situation...and in light of the fact that the home team didn't complain and the game management seemed to have the situation in control....we didn't feel it necessary to create a hub-bub by inforcing the rule technically. :cool:

wl

No, there isn't.

Lunch trays, cans with coins, cans with rocks, megaphones (except when used properly by cheerleaders), thundersticks, air horns, whistles, whoopee cushions, band instruments, high-tech scoreboards, recorded music, live music, plastic horns, Mattel See-and-Say (tm), ... All are illegal.

Bob, how could you not list cow bells? :mad:

Man, I hate those things.

Bob,

I don't know, if a school was able to have live music, not the band, perform. I might let them play one song to see if they are any good -- then show them the door! ;)

imaref,

In my opinion even if the home team was ok with the lunch trays you still should not have allowed them to be used. It makes it very difficult when the next crew comes in to do a game and the coach and fans say that the other refs allowed us to use them. I feel that inconsistency like this sometimes gets us in trouble.

What happens at the next game when the home team decides to bring their aluminum lunch boxes and beat on them and then they say, well the last game you let them beat on trays.

You are absolutely correct, Redhouse! And of course there will always be those technical issues to deal with. Guess my partner and I will be subject to the evaluation process by our state association and "damned" to never be assigned another post season high school tournament ever! Guess we fall into being too liberal. Not to be fully responsible for our actions....but, one could make an argument that game supervisors had the authority to nip this in the bud by confiscating the trays before we even saw them. But....you are right and our apologies for the "domino" effect that we undoubtably will now start. Sorry! :o

wl

I say that in IMAREF's situation, if the teams do not complain, and the game management does not complain, and the officials do not find it to be a problem, then play on! Why create a situation where one does not currently exist? Now, one could certainly argue that the officials are there to enforce the rules, and the home team might not be complaining because they don't know that such things are illegal, by rule. I guess if the officials are judging it to be a problem, which obviously wasn't the case, then something should be done. But again, why create problems if you don't have to? I think that it falls along the same advantage/disadvantage lines that contact between players does.

How much noise can cow balls make? Oh - you said bells. Sorry

That is not a problem imaref. I didn't mean to make it seem as though you just ended the world or something like that. Things like that always happen when we are out there and we have to make the best decision we can at that time.

drothamel,

I don't see this as create something that is not a problem. This is just upkeeping the rules that we are suppose to enforce. I am not going to let someone do something just because I think the other person doesn't know the rule. I am there to uphold the integrity of the game and I am going to make the call even if someone doesn't know the rule. Artificial noisemakers are not allowed inside the gym for a game.

I had this come up in a 2nd round playoff game. The AD came up to us during warmups and said that some of the students had duck calls (I live down south) and asked if they could use them. He said that previous officials in their area have allowed them in the past. That is the problem! We informed him that artificial noisemakers were not allowed and that they would not be able to use them. He said okay thanks, I will let the kids know.

Artificial noisemakers have got absolutely nothing to do with advantage/disadvantage. If teams and game management don't complain about their players dunking the ball during the pre-game, are you gonna allow that too?

The FED doesn't want artificial noisemakers in their game. It's up to us to enforce the rule; it's not our job to judge whether the rule is a problem or not. Iow, it's a a no-brainer.

Redhouse and JR-

You both make good points. In light of that, I stand corrected. I would have to get the kids to stop. I guess part of it is that I don't really like the rule. Especially when what comes out of students and parents mouths is sometimes far worse than any other noise. Then again, we don't get to enforce only the rules that we like.

You can become sarcastic and defensive if you like but Redhouse is absolutley correct. At the next game, the opponent isn't happy with all the noise and the officials are put in the position of addressing something that "was okay the last time we played."

Didn't I agree with Redhouse?

wl

Depends on the size of the bull.:D

A coach friend of mine was telling me a great story about the cowbells (which he also hates).

On hearing the cowbell, he grabs the nearest official (during a dead ball) and says, "that's an artificial noisemaker, just like it says in the rules." The official was ready to brush him off and let it go, and the coach persisted, "it's an artificial noisemaker and I want it out of here. Now you go up there and, unless they have the whole f**cking cow up there, I don't want to hear that thing any more!"

c'mon, man, we've had this discussion before. Cow bells aren't artificial noisemakers, they're leading edge musical instruments. Just ask Blue Oyster Cult!

I need more cow bell, I have a fever and the only cure is more cow bell!

Anyone notice the "irony" of 'Thunderstix' & other 'Noisemakers' being promoted by the Ads by Google listings above the member threads?

http://www.imprintitems.com/cheerleading.htm

hmmm :confused:

wl

Joe, Thanks, I needed that. ROTFLMAO

Sure, sure. Now I'll see this crap next season and they'll tell me that you didn't have a problem with it.

I have one team left from the four games I officiated. Catholic Central -- the other three winners lost in their next game.

I hate the offseason, although my feet have finally stopped hurting.

Rich....

Sorry I opened the door on enforcement...however, I think interpretation as to where responsibility lies can be reviewed. Game managers could have dealt with this situation prior to me and my partner taking jurisdiction of the game. I quote from the WIAA Handbook....

Noisemakers:
Air horns, whistles and devices that simulate gunfire are not allowed. (cannons, cap pistols, etc.)

Appropriate noisemakers are allowed at regular season and tournament competition; "provided that they are not used during playing action".

Tournament managers and/or contest managers may restrict use of noisemakers if, "in their judgment", they are disrupting coach/athlete communication or if the devices are excessively loud.

My feeling was that our decision not to make an issue of the trays....{again, trays were already in the student section prior to our coming on court}.... we didn't feel it necessary to create a bigger problem that enforcement may have contributed at the time. JMHO :)

I still have a team in the hunt for the coveted "gold ball". Randolph on the boys side. I thought Portage would have had a great chance, but apparently St. John's NW Academy was "underated". I was thrilled with the my tournament experiences! I trust you were as well! Good job!

Now kick-up your feet and rest up for your baseball season!

See ya around the base pads....heck, maybe we'll meet at the SWOA golf outing if that works out!

later....

wl :cool:

Sorry I opened the door on enforcement...however, I think interpretation as to where responsibility lies can be reviewed. Game managers could have dealt with this situation prior to me and my partner taking jurisdiction of the game.

My feeling was that our decision not to make an issue of the trays....{again, trays were already in the student section prior to our coming on court}.... we didn't feel it necessary to <font color = red>create a bigger problem that enforcement may have contributed at the time</font>. JMHO

[/B][/QUOTE]Responsibility lies with the officials to enforce the rule as written. If game managers hadn't taken care of those artificial noisemakers before your jurisdiction, then it's your job to take care of them. No different than pre-game dunking, jewelry, players with casts, untucked shirts, etc., etc., etc......

What "bigger problem" are you talking about creating? Just get game management to get rid of the trays. It's no big deal. The only problem that you're "creating" is for the next set of officials that gets that team, and has to tell them that it's against the rules to use those trays. All those guys are gonna hear is "The officials in the last game said it was OK".