Weird call in UCLA/Notre Dame game

[Smitty]

Late in the UCLA/Notre Dame game yesterday, Notre Dame was pushing the ball on a semi-fast break. Point guard dribbling ball up the middle just past mid-court. Wing cutting down the side runs into the ref as the point guard is passing the ball to him. Wing ends up nowhere near pass because of getting hung up with the ref. Pass goes directly out of bounds. Ref awards ball back to Notre Dame. They conferred about the call for a few seconds, and then stood by the decision to give the ball back to ND. Looked like one of the refs coming out of the conference wasn't too happy. Just curious if there is any rule to back this up in NCAA?

[JugglingReferee]

I don't know NC2A rules or ARs, but I imagine they have an elastic power rule. I also think it's reasonable that the R could overrule the umpire(s) is necessary, as dictated by established mechanics/situations.

I have a firm believe that no team should be penalized by an official's error. Would ND2 have a reasonable chance to catch the pass without it being intercepted? Hopefully one of the officials have a definite opinion. That said, I think giving the ball back to ND is the right thing to do.

Edit: Who came out of the meeting with a look on his face? Hopefully not the CC. U1? U2? The contacted official?

[Edited by JugglingReferee on Feb 28th, 2005 at 11:46 AM]

[bigzilla]

The ref that made contact immediately threw his arms up in the air like "what do you want me to do?" towards the ND bench after the pass went out of bounds. The contact was right in front of the ND bench. The lead was trying to gt back on the fast break and the player ran up on him. On the replay, it looked as though the ND player hit the back of the refs foot with his foot. This put him off balance and he wasn't able to get to the pass. The UCLA coach was going nuts over the ball being given back to ND.

Only a couple of possessions earlier, they had T'd up the ND coach when he went balistic after they didn't award a time out to one of his players who was going out of bounds. The replay was pretty clear that the guy had possession, and the lead didn't get a good look. He was almost out to the sideline on the opposite side.

All this being said, the ref is part of the court. Running into the ref should not have given ND the ball back.

[FrankHtown]

I bleed ND Blue & Gold (my son graduated from there, and I was a "Subway Alum" as long as I can remember).

The time out was a tough call. It was on the baseline away from the lead, and he was the only one that could have seen it. The C would have been screened by the player's body, I think. It happened VERY quickly, and the ref missed it. That's life.

As far as awarding the ball back to ND, THAT was a very unusual call. Maybe they were trying to make up for the time-out technical, but I saw the pass go out of bounds, and was incredibly surprised ND got it back. I hope this doesn't bring up a new interpretation of the ball hitting the referee and going out of bounds.

[blindzebra]

On the timeout call, the UCLA player, behind the ND player asking for the timeout, was wearing the same colored shoes and he was OOB.

The first time I saw it in replay at regular speed I thought the foot belonged to the ND player.

They had the same angle the official had, and I'm sure he saw the foot OOBs and thought it was the ND player's foot.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally posted by JugglingReferee
I don't know NC2A rules or ARs, but I imagine they have an elastic power rule. I also think it's reasonable that the R could overrule the umpire(s) is necessary, as dictated by established mechanics/situations.

I have a firm believe that no team should be penalized by an official's error. Would ND2 have a reasonable chance to catch the pass without it being intercepted? Hopefully one of the officials have a definite opinion. That said, I think giving the ball back to ND is the right thing to do.

I have a firm belief that you can't make up your own rules. The only rule applicable on this play that I know of is who touched the ball last before it went OOB. If that was Notre Dame, then it shoulda been UCLA ball. Sh*t happens. The elastic power rule is only to be used when something comes up that isn't covered by a rule. This play is covered by a rule. The referee also does not have the power in NCAA ball to overrule another official on a judgement call.

I don't think that we're getting the full story on this one.

[Smitty]

Originally posted by Jurassic Referee

I have a firm belief that you can't make up your own rules. The only rule applicable on this play that I know of is who touched the ball last before it went OOB. If that was Notre Dame, then it shoulda been UCLA ball. Sh*t happens. The elastic power rule is only to be used when something comes up that isn't covered by a rule. This play is covered by a rule. The referee also does not have the power in NCAA ball to overrule another official on a judgement call.

I don't think that we're getting the full story on this one.

Just to be clear, it didn't appear that anyone overruled anyone else. The official who called the out-of-bounds was the same official that got run into by the player attempting to receive the pass. His original call was to give the ball back to ND. The pass from the ND point guard clearly did not touch anyone else on its way OOB. They refs conferred for a few seconds and stayed with the original call.

[JugglingReferee]

Originally posted by bigzilla
All this being said, the ref is part of the court. Running into the ref should not have given ND the ball back.

The court doesn't grow limbs that could trip a player.

[JugglingReferee]

Ever seen those movies where inmates say, "lawyer screwed me?"

So ND...

... is not granted a requested timeout.

... and is then assessed a Technical foul.

... is then interfered with by game management.

... and then looses a possession by no act of their own.

The HD coach should stand up and bend over, because that's where he is taking it. "Refs screwed us."

[JugglingReferee]

Originally posted by Jurassic Referee
I have a firm belief that you can't make up your own rules. The only rule applicable on this play that I know of is who touched the ball last before it went OOB. If that was Notre Dame, then it shoulda been UCLA ball. Sh*t happens. The elastic power rule is only to be used when something comes up that isn't covered by a rule. This play is covered by a rule. The referee also does not have the power in NCAA ball to overrule another official on a judgement call.

I don't think that we're getting the full story on this one.

Ball is sailing OB, last touched by A, in front of B's bench. A1 has a reasonable chance to get the ball with clean hands. B coach extends his arms and catches the ball before the ball touches OB.

By rule, it's B's ball. What do you call?

(Yes, B coach is standing OB.)

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally posted by JugglingReferee

Ball is sailing OB, last touched by A, in front of B's bench. A1 has a reasonable chance to get the ball with clean hands. B coach extends his arms and catches the ball before the ball touches OB.

By rule, it's B's ball. What do you call?

(Yes, B coach is standing OB.)

Apples and oranges, Mike, apples and oranges. The officials are part of the court. it's that simple.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally posted by JugglingReferee
Ever seen those movies where inmates say, "lawyer screwed me?"

So ND...

... is not granted a requested timeout.

... and is then assessed a Technical foul.

... is then interfered with by game management.

... and then looses a possession by no act of their own.

The HD coach should stand up and bend over, because that's where he is taking it. "Refs screwed us."

And you know all of this....how?

Have you heard the official's side of the story? Do you know if they actually heard a TO request? Hey, noisy crowd- they might not have heard anything. And loses possession? Notre Dame was the last team to touch the ball inbounds before it went OOB. Is it fair to UCLA to ignore a very plainly written rule to give the ball back to Notre Dame? Fair works both ways. If you're gonna make a call, I always figgered it was probably best to try and make the right one, not necessarily the popular one.

This kind of play happens every now and then. As an official, all you can do is grit your teeth and keep on truckin'. Give the ball to UCLA, get it back into play asap, and get on with the world.

[syoung1113]

No way should they get the ball back! What would they have done if that pass was sailing OOB and now it hits the official who is inbounds, comes back to the offense, saving the ball from being turned over. Would they have killed play and said oops, sorry but the ball would have gone OOB so we need to take it away from you and give it to the other team. Wrong! An official is part of the court.

[Dan_ref]

Originally posted by JugglingReferee
Ever seen those movies where inmates say, "lawyer screwed me?"

So ND...

... is not granted a requested timeout.

... and is then assessed a Technical foul.

... is then interfered with by game management.

... and then looses a possession by no act of their own.

The HD coach should stand up and bend over, because that's where he is taking it. "Refs screwed us."

Are you saying that by not granting a timeout earlier the officials "owed one" to ND? And they were right to pay them off?

[JugglingReferee]

Originally posted by Dan_ref
Are you saying that by not granting a timeout earlier the officials "owed one" to ND? And they were right to pay them off?

Of course not, Dan. I was just setting a precidence (sp?) that ND was screwed earlier in the game. And a T to boot.

I cost a team a possession late in a JV final once, because I didn't do what was right, because it went against what I was taught. (JR: my P was Evans, at BCI.)

I will never do that again (in that sitch anyways).