Late in the UCLA/Notre Dame game yesterday, Notre Dame was pushing the ball on a semi-fast break. Point guard dribbling ball up the middle just past mid-court. Wing cutting down the side runs into the ref as the point guard is passing the ball to him. Wing ends up nowhere near pass because of getting hung up with the ref. Pass goes directly out of bounds. Ref awards ball back to Notre Dame. They conferred about the call for a few seconds, and then stood by the decision to give the ball back to ND. Looked like one of the refs coming out of the conference wasn't too happy. Just curious if there is any rule to back this up in NCAA?

I don't know NC2A rules or ARs, but I imagine they have an elastic power rule. I also think it's reasonable that the R could overrule the umpire(s) is necessary, as dictated by established mechanics/situations.

I have a firm believe that no team should be penalized by an official's error. Would ND2 have a reasonable chance to catch the pass without it being intercepted? Hopefully one of the officials have a definite opinion. That said, I think giving the ball back to ND is the right thing to do.

Edit: Who came out of the meeting with a look on his face? Hopefully not the CC. U1? U2? The contacted official?

[Edited by JugglingReferee on Feb 28th, 2005 at 11:46 AM]

The ref that made contact immediately threw his arms up in the air like "what do you want me to do?" towards the ND bench after the pass went out of bounds. The contact was right in front of the ND bench. The lead was trying to gt back on the fast break and the player ran up on him. On the replay, it looked as though the ND player hit the back of the refs foot with his foot. This put him off balance and he wasn't able to get to the pass. The UCLA coach was going nuts over the ball being given back to ND.

Only a couple of possessions earlier, they had T'd up the ND coach when he went balistic after they didn't award a time out to one of his players who was going out of bounds. The replay was pretty clear that the guy had possession, and the lead didn't get a good look. He was almost out to the sideline on the opposite side.

All this being said, the ref is part of the court. Running into the ref should not have given ND the ball back.

I bleed ND Blue & Gold (my son graduated from there, and I was a "Subway Alum" as long as I can remember).

The time out was a tough call. It was on the baseline away from the lead, and he was the only one that could have seen it. The C would have been screened by the player's body, I think. It happened VERY quickly, and the ref missed it. That's life.

As far as awarding the ball back to ND, THAT was a very unusual call. Maybe they were trying to make up for the time-out technical, but I saw the pass go out of bounds, and was incredibly surprised ND got it back. I hope this doesn't bring up a new interpretation of the ball hitting the referee and going out of bounds.

On the timeout call, the UCLA player, behind the ND player asking for the timeout, was wearing the same colored shoes and he was OOB.

The first time I saw it in replay at regular speed I thought the foot belonged to the ND player.

They had the same angle the official had, and I'm sure he saw the foot OOBs and thought it was the ND player's foot.

I have a firm belief that you can't make up your own rules. The only rule applicable on this play that I know of is who touched the ball last before it went OOB. If that was Notre Dame, then it shoulda been UCLA ball. Sh*t happens. The elastic power rule is only to be used when something comes up that isn't covered by a rule. This play is covered by a rule. The referee also does not have the power in NCAA ball to overrule another official on a judgement call.

I don't think that we're getting the full story on this one.

Just to be clear, it didn't appear that anyone overruled anyone else. The official who called the out-of-bounds was the same official that got run into by the player attempting to receive the pass. His original call was to give the ball back to ND. The pass from the ND point guard clearly did not touch anyone else on its way OOB. They refs conferred for a few seconds and stayed with the original call.

The court doesn't grow limbs that could trip a player.

Ever seen those movies where inmates say, "lawyer screwed me?"

So ND...

... is not granted a requested timeout.

... and is then assessed a Technical foul.

... is then interfered with by game management.

... and then looses a possession by no act of their own.

The HD coach should stand up and bend over, because that's where he is taking it. "Refs screwed us."

Ball is sailing OB, last touched by A, in front of B's bench. A1 has a reasonable chance to get the ball with clean hands. B coach extends his arms and catches the ball before the ball touches OB.

By rule, it's B's ball. What do you call?

(Yes, B coach is standing OB.)

Apples and oranges, Mike, apples and oranges. The officials are part of the court. it's that simple.

And you know all of this....how?

Have you heard the official's side of the story? Do you know if they actually heard a TO request? Hey, noisy crowd- they might not have heard anything. And loses possession? Notre Dame was the last team to touch the ball inbounds before it went OOB. Is it fair to UCLA to ignore a very plainly written rule to give the ball back to Notre Dame? Fair works both ways. If you're gonna make a call, I always figgered it was probably best to try and make the right one, not necessarily the popular one.

This kind of play happens every now and then. As an official, all you can do is grit your teeth and keep on truckin'. Give the ball to UCLA, get it back into play asap, and get on with the world.

Let's flip the play
 

No way should they get the ball back! What would they have done if that pass was sailing OOB and now it hits the official who is inbounds, comes back to the offense, saving the ball from being turned over. Would they have killed play and said oops, sorry but the ball would have gone OOB so we need to take it away from you and give it to the other team. Wrong! An official is part of the court.

Are you saying that by not granting a timeout earlier the officials "owed one" to ND? And they were right to pay them off?

Of course not, Dan. I was just setting a precidence (sp?) that ND was screwed earlier in the game. And a T to boot.

I cost a team a possession late in a JV final once, because I didn't do what was right, because it went against what I was taught. (JR: my P was Evans, at BCI.)

I will never do that again (in that sitch anyways).

Maybe. Just tell me what you would call!

It still sounds to me like you're trying to paint what might have been "make good" call (I didn't see it so I have to go by the descriptions I'm reading here) as the proper thing to do.

BTW, what happened in your play?

If I think that A1 had a shot a saving the ball and the coach deliberately interfered with the ball to negate that possible save, I'd "T" the coach up for interfering with the play.

Now, that's a judgement call. Where is the judgement on the other call that we're discussing? A Notre Dame player last touched the ball in-bounds before it went OOB. No judgement is required now to make the call. It's UCLA's ball. Touching an official in-bounds(or OOB for that matter) would not mitigate that call in any way.

[Edited by Jurassic Referee on Feb 28th, 2005 at 04:46 PM]

The T was more than justified. The camera was on the ND coach the whole time he's on the playing court yelling "That was BullSh*t!!!" over and over at the ref. It wasn't difficult to read his lips. For what it's worth, the ref he was yelling at didn't call the T - one of his partners did.

The way I read it, ND did not lose the ball on a possession when, by rule, they should have lost possession. The luck of the Irish!

My question is: Did any official explain why ND got the ball back??

No, there was no explanation. The UCLA coach was calling for one, but didn't get it. The ball went out, the contacted ref immediately turned towards the bench with his hands raised as if signaling "what?", and then he pointed to the baseline indicating the ball stayed with ND. The other two refs come over to him, there is a discussion, and they break out and still go with ND. As far as the T, the coach was way out on the court and repeatedly said thats BS! The ref he was yelling at waved him off, and another ref stuck him. Then the same ref he was yelling at was in the collision. As far as this being "interference by game management", who was more able to avoid the collision, the ref running down court or the player running him down from behind? I say its as much the player's responsibility to see what is ahead of him as the ref's to avoid what is coming from behind. Personally, I thought the ref looked shook and made the possession call, and they didn't want to make him look any worse than the last two incidents already had by changing the decision.

I agree that I have a T in this sitch for the coach touching a live ball before it's dead. Further this, what if A1 goes to dive for the ball to save it while in the air and B Coach catches it? This is definitely a T, especially w/ the qualification that A1 has a reasonable chance to get the ball w/ clean hands.