[moderator snip] Letting a foul-mouth like this remain in the game will lead to more inappropriate behavior. And to start calling ticky-tack fouls lowers your professionalism. It's like an umpire squeezing a pitcher, or widening the zone on a batter. [moderator snip]

Bob

[Edited by Brad on Mar 1st, 2001 at 11:32 AM]

Bob,

First of all, please abide by the forum guidelines - I'm sure that you can get your point across without personal insults or attacks.

Secondly, I think that you are going to find that a LOT of officials disagree with you that profanity warrants an immediate ejection. Include me in that group... I don't think that ejecting the player is within the spirit or intent of the rules.

Rule 10 states that a player is ejected is he participates after having changed his number without reporting it to the scorer, participates after being disqualified, or is involved in a fight.

Article 8 (10-3-8) addresses unsportsmanlike conduct including "disrespectfully addressing or contacting an official", "using profane or inappropriate language", etc.

Now, I am not saying that you do not have the ability to eject a player on a single flagrant technical foul for something listed. For instance, if a player contacted me - bumped, pulled my arm around, or something similar, I think that I would probably eject them in a heartbeat. But for profanity, I'm not sure...

Remember - there is a lot of difference between "That's a f**king horrible call" or "What kind of bulls**t call is that?" versus "You are a mother f**ker" or something similar. The latter may warrant an immediate ejection, or may not, but the first two examples do not, IMHO.

What I like about this forum is the different tangent we get on....... or my thought process when I send in a post my think we will go one direction and it takes off on a different path! I have enjoyed the responses, But I was frustrated with coaches response more than what the kid actually said!

AK ref SE

Brad:

Where did I attack or insult anyone? I said that calling ticky-tacks to show a player who's boss is unprofessional. Also, did you read the original post? Re-read it and then tell me that wasn't cause for ejection. Ye gads, what do you put up with from a player?

Bob

It must be the pressure
 

Bob,
I do not understand either.
Brad may be under a lot of pressure. or maybe just too much coffee, or maybe he just kicked it, like we all do from time to time. ;)
Do you remember calling anyone any names?
mick

Re: It should not suprise.
 

Quote:

Originally posted by mick Bob

Bob,
I do not understand either.
Brad may be under a lot of pressure. or maybe just too much coffee, or maybe he just kicked it, like we all do from time to time. ;)
Do you remember calling anyone any names?
mick [/B][/QUOTE]


Typical. Brad and the others have done this on a regular basis. I have gotten emails by these guys and not one word was a name in any of my post. I even made an comparison and used George W. Bush, he got mad at that. And these guys want to make an issue out of what Referee Magazine is doing to them?

Ejection
 

Here we go again...didn't we just have this "ejection for using the "F" word" discussion a week or so ago?

BskBalRef...you are very articulate, and always seem to make good arguments. But, that dosen't always make you right. I believe, as other officials stated, that a person officiates in his/her own style. If it's your style to eject a player for using profanity then do it! Just don't get down on me for not ejecting the player. (In all the years of playing, coaching and officiating...I have never heard of a player being ejected for profanity.)

I know, here comes your opinion that using the "F" word is Vulgar etc. etc. Well, a black man may suggest that the "N" word is just as vulgar and offensive. A gay man might suggest that the other "F" (F*G) word is vulgar and offensive. A woman might suggest that the "B" (B***H) word is vulgar and offensive. We could go on and on. Do you have a list of words that will get a player an automatic ejection? If so, why not add a few more...I'm sure certain people would think certain words are more vulgar and offensive than your "F" word. i.e. a player that has no known daddy might think being called a "bas***d" is worse than being called a "F***er"! Do you eject for the use of that "B" word...if not, you are doing an injustice to all the illegitimate kids of the world.

Do you get my drift...they are all BAD!! They are all VULGAR! They are all OFFENSIVE!

In my opinion, an official should not pick and choose the words he thinks is worse. WHACK EM for any profanity...the other team shoots two...gets the ball back...a foul goes toward the players total foul count...The player is usually pulled from the game...GOOD ENOUGH!!

THAT'S CONSISTENT WITH WHAT MOST OFFICIALS DO.
If you want to be inconsistent with the officiating community fine, again, please don't belittle us officials who whack em' for the profanity and move on.

Sidenote: were you speaking for all the officails in NC when you stated, "in NC, he's gone and he's sitting in street clothes for the next two games."?

Re: Ejection
 

Dan,
If none of those words offend me, and I am the only one that hears those words, how is it offensive language?
mick

Re: Re: Ejection
 

Mick,

If a tree falls in a forest, and no one hears it's crash...does that mean it did not, in fact, make a sound?

Sidenote: If you're having trouble figuring out what language is "offensive" or "profane"...check out the comedian, George Carlan's list of what words are not allowed on T.V.! :)

Re: Ejection
 

First, Dan, get the chip off your shoulder. I didn't "belittle" anyone and I don't remember replying to anything that you've previously posted in this thread. So I don't know how I could have belittled you. I simply agreed with bluezebra. Second, if that's how it's handled in your area, then fine. But I've personally never worked in an area where that type of language is tolerated. Third, your "doing an injustice to all" speech is beside the point.

Yes, I speak for all officials in NC. The NCHSAA policy on ejections for all sports requires players to be ejected and suspended one week for profanity, fighting, taunting/baiting, obscene gestures, and contacting an official. One week would result in a 2 game suspension in basketball, since two games are normally played in one week. During this past season, 3 JV officials in our association did not eject two girls involved in a small fight. Since they did not take care of business. they were all three suspended for two games.

Perhaps you have a better idea of where I'm coming from now. To me the "F" word directed at another player, coach, fan or official or audible to fans would always result in an ejection.

We have players walking around, telling officials "That was a horrible f**king call" yet we can't understand why we have so much poor sportsmanship in the game today. That's what's horrible. :(

[Edited by BktBallRef on Mar 2nd, 2001 at 12:12 AM]

This is an area thing.
 

We have players walking around, telling officials "That was a horrible f**king call" yet we can't understand why we have so much poor sportsmanship in the game today. That's what's horrible.

I think you have missed the point TH. If a player says to an official "That was a horrible f**king call," that comment is directed towards you, not himself. But if you hear a player say "F**K" after he missed a big shot, and you are the only one that hears him, that is totally different. Now, as they get older, the more you are going to hear language, whether you like it or not. We can give T's all day, but that is not going to stop every kid from cursing. So if you guys in NC like to give T's for that, of course that is your progative and your right. But the rulebook does not support that completely. Yes you cannot use profane and obscene language, but what is obscene and profane might be different based on where you live. The Supreme Court cannot agree at all times when obsenity laws are violated and not protected under the law, how do you think officials are going to do so? Because if you do some varsity games in my area and give a T for every player, coach or fan that acts in such a way, you would not have a game.

Belittlement
 

Actually, my friend, if I seemed to have a "chip on my shoulder" it could have come from other threads you have replied to...but, nothing would be gained by getting into specifics...so you are correct again, you said nothing in "this thread" to warrant my perceived belittlement.

As to your philosophy of ejections...lets just agree to disagree.

The above "chip" was for BktballRef...no hard feelings.

Jrutledge, I am doing a district playoff game Sat. and I think you would make an excellent partner...wanna fly to Washington State? :)



[Edited by DanIvey on Mar 2nd, 2001 at 01:05 AM]

Re: Snake eyes.
 

If I start working for this airline company, maybe I will. The fight might cost me $10 and that would be cost affective. Hope your game goes well.

BTW, do not worry about TH, he is a good guy. He is just really passionate about things like many of us are. I do not think he meant any harm. He really is a nice guy. I used to think he was an a-hole, but he thought the same thing about me any probably worse. The rules backs up his argument, but just like anything in the rulebook, you have to find a middle ground. If we gave everyone a T for half the things the rules wanted us to, we would not have anyone but ourselves to be at the game. But just like anything else, somethings are going to be called different depending on where you are and who teaches you.

Officiating is such a person thing, and I will always say, if the players and coaches role the dice, they just might crap out. And on this issue if TH is your official and you use certain language, you get snake eyes. You have a game with me, you might get another roll, but it might be your last.

Peace.

Re: This is an area thing.
 

I'm not missing the point, JR and I don't disagree with anything that you said. The fact of the matter is that in the original post and the post that Bradley Batt made above, the comments were directed at an official. If a player whispers a quiet @#$%& after he makes a bad play, then I'll whisper a little warning in his ear. But if he tells me, "Thats a f**ked up call, I can't believe this b*llsh*t!", he's gone. I have no choice but probably would make the same decision if I did.

Quote:

So if you guys in NC like to give T's for that, of course that is your perogative and your right. But the rulebook does not support that completely.

It's not a matter of whether we like to give T's or not. It's the state policy. Perhaps it's the difference in living in the Southeast versus the Mid West or Pacific North West. Until this post surfaced, I didn't realize officials in other parts of the country put up such.

That's unfortunate.

Re: But you have a rule.
 

I completely understand TH. You have a state policy in place that mandates you to do certain things. There is nothing wrong with that, but in my area and others, there is no such "specific" policy. In 10-3-8b, you are right that certain language or behaviors can and should be T'd. But I really do not think anyone is objecting to that. It is just who is saying what to whom. I had a game were I fouled out a kid, and as I was reporting the kid passed me and said "I did not f**king touch him." Well I immediately gave him a T, and I was the only one that could have heard him. The coach wanted and explaination, and I gave it to him and we had no further problems. But even if he was not fouling out of the game, all that I would have done is give the kid a T, that is it. I would not consider the action flagrant unless that kid threatend me directly or tried to intimidate me in some way. Neither happen and a just giving him a T was enough. But if NC has different rules, you have to adhere to their rules and if I lived there, I would do the same. But in this area, the kid would have to be directing his/her comments toward me or an opponent in a certain way for me to just eject them.