This was a response I received this weekend during a tourney.

My partner calls a Charge! Great call!! Coach gets mad! Player gets mad and says Thats a F***K up call, I can't believe this B.S. That Gosh Darn Ref"
I "T" up the player! The coach asked what he said!
I told him! His comment was in a game of this nature and type You have to expect emotion and you should have a Deaf ear!!!
What!

AK ref SE "Venting"

If I'm the calling official and I hear those words, I'm T'ing him up. If I'm the off official and I hear those words, I'm probably getting in his face to tell him that I don't want to hear ANYTHING like that again. If he backs down, he is "let off easy". If he continues to protest/complain, then I'm T'ing him up.

AK,

Was this a high school game?
.

Indy, if an official on the floor hears a player spewing profanity, especially towards an official, a 'T' must be given.

Now, if I saw that it was whispered/muttered toward him/herself or the ball ("__ I shoulda had that one"), I might be inclined to go with the warning.

Swear at my partner or me, and you've earned a 'T'.

Martin

Yupper!
 

I'm with you, Martin.
Under breath, I tell them "I didn't hear that, and I won't hear it again".
Swear at my partner aloud, ... I'll collect the garbage.
mick

Martin Morgan-
Yes this was a High school game! This was said loud enough for myself who was 20 feet away, along with about 4 other players(both teams), and maybe a fan or two!

I have heard players before voice their opinion, if it was under their breath! I have used the line "I didn't hear that this time"!

AK ref SE

I have had 2 simular T's this year. At this level its not even an option for me I T immediately. Both times when the
coaches asked what the player had said my reponse was " Coach he used language that you nor I are supposed to tolerate on this court". Seems to work both times the coaches pulled the player for a few choice words on the bench.

I have a simple test. Assume my 5 year old daughter is in the stands, if she hears it, then there is a T. Of course, if directed inappropriately at the refs or the other team, they get a T right away.

Why was that player not ejected?

Bob

My question exactly! In NC, he's gone and he's sitting on the bench in street clothes for the next two games.

Situation Last year
 

How would you have handled this situation I had last year in a girl's JV game?


Girl is called for a foul (I believe it was a player-control foul). As my partner is reporting to the table, girl walks by me and says "That's f**king bullsh*t!"

I gave her a "T" (and of course, the coach wanted to know what she said).

Indy_Ref, I would be more apt to back up my partner. What diff. does it make if you hear it as an off official?

I don't understand you people! A "T" MUST be given for language as was described, AND an EJECTIOIN goes with it. I don't care which official this outburst was aimed at, it has no place on a court or field, especially when youth are involved.

Bob

Does the rules say to eject a player for profanity? I would agree, the amount of response given by the player in this case is alot. Wouldn't break my heart to see this player gone.

Re: Situation Last year
 

In the now infamous words of Ronnie Garrettson, "Whack! Get out!" :D

Not an ejection.
 

Look, there is many ways to get rid of a kid than giving a T. I agree that this kid made a comment towards and official, it should be a T every single time. But I do not agree that you need to eject him. Look, you have punished the bad behavior. If the kid wants to continue to run his mouth, bang him again. Now I also feel, that if he wants to stare you down, and try to show you up, just get him for every little thing he does. Do not give him the benefit of doubt. Every little push, call a foul. Every little contact, call a foul. He will either foul out or the coach will remove him, either way you have accomplished what you wanted to.

Just my opinion.

[moderator snip] Letting a foul-mouth like this remain in the game will lead to more inappropriate behavior. And to start calling ticky-tack fouls lowers your professionalism. It's like an umpire squeezing a pitcher, or widening the zone on a batter. [moderator snip]

Bob

[Edited by Brad on Mar 1st, 2001 at 11:32 AM]

Bob,

First of all, please abide by the forum guidelines - I'm sure that you can get your point across without personal insults or attacks.

Secondly, I think that you are going to find that a LOT of officials disagree with you that profanity warrants an immediate ejection. Include me in that group... I don't think that ejecting the player is within the spirit or intent of the rules.

Rule 10 states that a player is ejected is he participates after having changed his number without reporting it to the scorer, participates after being disqualified, or is involved in a fight.

Article 8 (10-3-8) addresses unsportsmanlike conduct including "disrespectfully addressing or contacting an official", "using profane or inappropriate language", etc.

Now, I am not saying that you do not have the ability to eject a player on a single flagrant technical foul for something listed. For instance, if a player contacted me - bumped, pulled my arm around, or something similar, I think that I would probably eject them in a heartbeat. But for profanity, I'm not sure...

Remember - there is a lot of difference between "That's a f**king horrible call" or "What kind of bulls**t call is that?" versus "You are a mother f**ker" or something similar. The latter may warrant an immediate ejection, or may not, but the first two examples do not, IMHO.

What I like about this forum is the different tangent we get on....... or my thought process when I send in a post my think we will go one direction and it takes off on a different path! I have enjoyed the responses, But I was frustrated with coaches response more than what the kid actually said!

AK ref SE

Brad:

Where did I attack or insult anyone? I said that calling ticky-tacks to show a player who's boss is unprofessional. Also, did you read the original post? Re-read it and then tell me that wasn't cause for ejection. Ye gads, what do you put up with from a player?

Bob

It must be the pressure
 

Bob,
I do not understand either.
Brad may be under a lot of pressure. or maybe just too much coffee, or maybe he just kicked it, like we all do from time to time. ;)
Do you remember calling anyone any names?
mick

Re: It should not suprise.
 

Quote:

Originally posted by mick Bob

Bob,
I do not understand either.
Brad may be under a lot of pressure. or maybe just too much coffee, or maybe he just kicked it, like we all do from time to time. ;)
Do you remember calling anyone any names?
mick [/B][/QUOTE]


Typical. Brad and the others have done this on a regular basis. I have gotten emails by these guys and not one word was a name in any of my post. I even made an comparison and used George W. Bush, he got mad at that. And these guys want to make an issue out of what Referee Magazine is doing to them?

Ejection
 

Here we go again...didn't we just have this "ejection for using the "F" word" discussion a week or so ago?

BskBalRef...you are very articulate, and always seem to make good arguments. But, that dosen't always make you right. I believe, as other officials stated, that a person officiates in his/her own style. If it's your style to eject a player for using profanity then do it! Just don't get down on me for not ejecting the player. (In all the years of playing, coaching and officiating...I have never heard of a player being ejected for profanity.)

I know, here comes your opinion that using the "F" word is Vulgar etc. etc. Well, a black man may suggest that the "N" word is just as vulgar and offensive. A gay man might suggest that the other "F" (F*G) word is vulgar and offensive. A woman might suggest that the "B" (B***H) word is vulgar and offensive. We could go on and on. Do you have a list of words that will get a player an automatic ejection? If so, why not add a few more...I'm sure certain people would think certain words are more vulgar and offensive than your "F" word. i.e. a player that has no known daddy might think being called a "bas***d" is worse than being called a "F***er"! Do you eject for the use of that "B" word...if not, you are doing an injustice to all the illegitimate kids of the world.

Do you get my drift...they are all BAD!! They are all VULGAR! They are all OFFENSIVE!

In my opinion, an official should not pick and choose the words he thinks is worse. WHACK EM for any profanity...the other team shoots two...gets the ball back...a foul goes toward the players total foul count...The player is usually pulled from the game...GOOD ENOUGH!!

THAT'S CONSISTENT WITH WHAT MOST OFFICIALS DO.
If you want to be inconsistent with the officiating community fine, again, please don't belittle us officials who whack em' for the profanity and move on.

Sidenote: were you speaking for all the officails in NC when you stated, "in NC, he's gone and he's sitting in street clothes for the next two games."?

Re: Ejection
 

Dan,
If none of those words offend me, and I am the only one that hears those words, how is it offensive language?
mick

Re: Re: Ejection
 

Mick,

If a tree falls in a forest, and no one hears it's crash...does that mean it did not, in fact, make a sound?

Sidenote: If you're having trouble figuring out what language is "offensive" or "profane"...check out the comedian, George Carlan's list of what words are not allowed on T.V.! :)

Re: Ejection
 

First, Dan, get the chip off your shoulder. I didn't "belittle" anyone and I don't remember replying to anything that you've previously posted in this thread. So I don't know how I could have belittled you. I simply agreed with bluezebra. Second, if that's how it's handled in your area, then fine. But I've personally never worked in an area where that type of language is tolerated. Third, your "doing an injustice to all" speech is beside the point.

Yes, I speak for all officials in NC. The NCHSAA policy on ejections for all sports requires players to be ejected and suspended one week for profanity, fighting, taunting/baiting, obscene gestures, and contacting an official. One week would result in a 2 game suspension in basketball, since two games are normally played in one week. During this past season, 3 JV officials in our association did not eject two girls involved in a small fight. Since they did not take care of business. they were all three suspended for two games.

Perhaps you have a better idea of where I'm coming from now. To me the "F" word directed at another player, coach, fan or official or audible to fans would always result in an ejection.

We have players walking around, telling officials "That was a horrible f**king call" yet we can't understand why we have so much poor sportsmanship in the game today. That's what's horrible. :(

[Edited by BktBallRef on Mar 2nd, 2001 at 12:12 AM]

This is an area thing.
 

We have players walking around, telling officials "That was a horrible f**king call" yet we can't understand why we have so much poor sportsmanship in the game today. That's what's horrible.

I think you have missed the point TH. If a player says to an official "That was a horrible f**king call," that comment is directed towards you, not himself. But if you hear a player say "F**K" after he missed a big shot, and you are the only one that hears him, that is totally different. Now, as they get older, the more you are going to hear language, whether you like it or not. We can give T's all day, but that is not going to stop every kid from cursing. So if you guys in NC like to give T's for that, of course that is your progative and your right. But the rulebook does not support that completely. Yes you cannot use profane and obscene language, but what is obscene and profane might be different based on where you live. The Supreme Court cannot agree at all times when obsenity laws are violated and not protected under the law, how do you think officials are going to do so? Because if you do some varsity games in my area and give a T for every player, coach or fan that acts in such a way, you would not have a game.

Belittlement
 

Actually, my friend, if I seemed to have a "chip on my shoulder" it could have come from other threads you have replied to...but, nothing would be gained by getting into specifics...so you are correct again, you said nothing in "this thread" to warrant my perceived belittlement.

As to your philosophy of ejections...lets just agree to disagree.

The above "chip" was for BktballRef...no hard feelings.

Jrutledge, I am doing a district playoff game Sat. and I think you would make an excellent partner...wanna fly to Washington State? :)



[Edited by DanIvey on Mar 2nd, 2001 at 01:05 AM]

Re: Snake eyes.
 

If I start working for this airline company, maybe I will. The fight might cost me $10 and that would be cost affective. Hope your game goes well.

BTW, do not worry about TH, he is a good guy. He is just really passionate about things like many of us are. I do not think he meant any harm. He really is a nice guy. I used to think he was an a-hole, but he thought the same thing about me any probably worse. The rules backs up his argument, but just like anything in the rulebook, you have to find a middle ground. If we gave everyone a T for half the things the rules wanted us to, we would not have anyone but ourselves to be at the game. But just like anything else, somethings are going to be called different depending on where you are and who teaches you.

Officiating is such a person thing, and I will always say, if the players and coaches role the dice, they just might crap out. And on this issue if TH is your official and you use certain language, you get snake eyes. You have a game with me, you might get another roll, but it might be your last.

Peace.

Re: This is an area thing.
 

I'm not missing the point, JR and I don't disagree with anything that you said. The fact of the matter is that in the original post and the post that Bradley Batt made above, the comments were directed at an official. If a player whispers a quiet @#$%& after he makes a bad play, then I'll whisper a little warning in his ear. But if he tells me, "Thats a f**ked up call, I can't believe this b*llsh*t!", he's gone. I have no choice but probably would make the same decision if I did.

Quote:

So if you guys in NC like to give T's for that, of course that is your perogative and your right. But the rulebook does not support that completely.

It's not a matter of whether we like to give T's or not. It's the state policy. Perhaps it's the difference in living in the Southeast versus the Mid West or Pacific North West. Until this post surfaced, I didn't realize officials in other parts of the country put up such.

That's unfortunate.

Re: But you have a rule.
 

I completely understand TH. You have a state policy in place that mandates you to do certain things. There is nothing wrong with that, but in my area and others, there is no such "specific" policy. In 10-3-8b, you are right that certain language or behaviors can and should be T'd. But I really do not think anyone is objecting to that. It is just who is saying what to whom. I had a game were I fouled out a kid, and as I was reporting the kid passed me and said "I did not f**king touch him." Well I immediately gave him a T, and I was the only one that could have heard him. The coach wanted and explaination, and I gave it to him and we had no further problems. But even if he was not fouling out of the game, all that I would have done is give the kid a T, that is it. I would not consider the action flagrant unless that kid threatend me directly or tried to intimidate me in some way. Neither happen and a just giving him a T was enough. But if NC has different rules, you have to adhere to their rules and if I lived there, I would do the same. But in this area, the kid would have to be directing his/her comments toward me or an opponent in a certain way for me to just eject them.

Re: Re: But you have a rule.
 

[QUOTE]Originally posted by JRutledge

Quote:

I completely understand TH. You have a state policy in place that mandates you to do certain things. There is nothing wrong with that, but in my area and others, there is no such "specific" policy. In 10-3-8b, you are right that certain language or behaviors can and should be T'd. But I really do not think anyone is objecting to that. It is just who is saying what to whom. I had a game were I fouled out a kid, and as I was reporting the kid passed me and said "I did not f**king touch him." Well I immediately gave him a T, and I was the only one that could have heard him. The coach wanted and explaination, and I gave it to him and we had no further problems. But even if he was not fouling out of the game, all that I would have done is give the kid a T, that is it. I would not consider the action flagrant unless that kid threatend me directly or tried to intimidate me in some way. Neither happen and a just giving him a T was enough. But if NC has different rules, you have to adhere to their rules and if I lived there, I would do the same. But in this area, the kid would have to be directing his/her comments toward me or an opponent in a certain way for me to just eject them.

Putting aside state mandated ejections for profanity this
is an interesting discussion. I think Rut is correct,
it comes down to a matter of perception in a lot of cases.
If in Rut's case the layer screams "I did not f**king touch
him." then there's no question, T and possible ejection.
If he says it to you as you're reporting the foul then
you've got to bang him, it's just you and him in the middle
of the floor and most people can lipread what was just said,
even if only you heard it. But if you're lining up for free throws and the player wanders over, covers his mouth and
says this mano-a-mano I think I might at most give him a
stern warning or just tell him I disagree. Bottom line is
different people have different tolerance for this kind of
thing, my letting it go makes it no tougher for the next guy
who decides *not* to let it go.

I had a situation a week ago that goes along with the original intent of the thread. Partner calls a foul, and I line the players up for the free throws. The girl who was called for the foul looks at me and says "That was a sh***y call" .

I whack her and the coach asked for an explaination, and I thought his skull was going to come out of this skin. He gave me the "we're down by 15, maybe it is just frustration speil" and I "shouldn't be looking for T's this late in the year", but I was amazed that he could have cared less at the unsportsmanlike act she committed. He carried on so much I had to just walk away before I dropped one on him, it still bugs me that he didn't care what she did, but that I had the nerve to T her up.

This is where sportsmanship went downhill... when the coaches stop giving a damn or don't have the onions to disipline their players.

It is unfortunate that coaches get caught up in winning and losing so much that they lose all other perspective. I would have no problem with you T'ing my player for profanity, and if I knew she did it, she would be on the bench next to me - of course I don't have high school varsity, but I don't think my attitude would be much different if I did. I probably would not remove a child for game for profanity, while at the MS level they will sit.

On Sunday, we played another team from our AAU club in a league game. I know the players, coaches, and parents and have a good relationship with many of them. I got a complaint from one player on their team about an alleged obscenity from one of my players. I immediately addressed the situation privately with her, and she of course denied doing anything wrong. I was sure to tell her that I did not know what happened, I wasn't on the court. But I made it clear that if a ref heard her say anything like she had been acused of saying to an opposing player, she could be T'd up or ejected (and I would hope you all would). If it was just a T, I explained that on my team she would still have a spot waiting on the bench. Next week after tryouts, I will have this discussion with my entire team about how they will comport themselves on the bench and in games.

I want my teams to be passionate about the games and about winning. The FIFA fair play guidelines even say that you need to put forth an all out effort on the field to be fair to those who came to have a sporting contest. But all that passion must come with self control. I think we all need to teach sportsmanship. And coaches can have selfish reasons for wanting control, because the self control that comes with sportsmanship also has side benefits of better discipline in all aspects of the game.

Hawks Coach-
When I originally posted this thread! I was looking at this from what the coaches response was to my giving the player a "T". I am glad that you would sit the player down at least for the a time! Like I said in the beginning, the response of the coach telling me "I need a deaf ear" really shocked me!

AK ref SE

Hhahaha, to shock the coach as soon as he said that it should have falled upon a deaf ear, you coulda T'd him for teling you how to you your job.
joking, i guess it's just that the softball season is 2 months away and that's kind of a softball mind frame.


Cheers, Tyler

Last month there was a lengthy discussion regarding profanity and I cannot forget what string it was in BUT I got on my soap box about the use of vulgarity and how the NFHS and NCAA rules handle the penalties for using a vulgarity. The F-word is a vulgarity and the NFHS penalty for using a vulgarity is disqualification for players, substitutes, and bench personel, and disqualification and ejection for the head coach.

I am no prude but whether it is a high school game or a college game, there is no place for vulgarity. A flagrant technical foul is the only correct action to take. I am the most ferverent defender of the First Amendent you will find but a basketball game is not a democracy. A basketball game is just that a game. And why do I say that, please read on.

UCLA went 30-0 1972-73 and won the NCAA title, but North Carolina State Univ. went 27-0 that year but was on probation and was not allowed to play in the post-season. The next season the two teams met late in the regular season and both team were undefeated. UCLA had Bill Walton and NCSU had David Thompson. UCLA won that game, but the two teams would meet one more time that season, in the Natioal Semi-finals. NCSU won that game in double overtime in one of the all-time great basketball games ever played. And the comment I will always remember is the Norm Sloan (NCSU head coach) telling the press that it was nice to win but there were 500 million Chinese who didn't even know that the game was played.