I wish to enter a general request for all coaches to actually read the rule book before challenging refs on the rules. Two coaches tried this on me today.
1st coach calls for traveling on a throwin near the table. "He's moving his feet, he can't do that."
"Yes, he can."
"No, he can't."
Throw in gets stolen by his team, and I blow the ball dead (stopped a would-be layup for his team, mind you) and inform the coach that the rule gives only the three foot parameter.
"You mean he can do this?" He marches in place.
"Yes."
"He didn't think that was the rule." Points to the other coach.
Me, walking away.

#2. Start of 3rd quarter. Red ball. I hand the ball to the A1, and A2 insists to A1 that he should throw it in. A1 tosses the ball to A2 who promptly steps out of bounds to throw it in. Tweet. Violation.
A's AC tries telling me the thrower can pass to a teammate out of bounds. This is just too good.
I was laughing so hard during this game, though, that I didn't have the presence of mind to ask the HC to control his AC. Ended up ringing the HC up in the 4th quarter.

I didn't find out until the next to last game of the season that it is illegal for a defender to poke the ball out from behind. If it wasn't for that coach, I would have gone my whole career without this gem of knowledge.

I wasn't aware that pushing off your opponents back, on a rebound, was a cheap foul until my last game of the season (Friday). Also, this is a real common one, it's a violation to be in the lane three seconds before the play is inbounded.

I had one at a game three weeks ago where the player took steps on a spot throw-in and someone yelled "Travelling".

Only it was the ref. Said afterwards, "He's not allowed to move three feet, that was the old rule." His partner just shrugged. :(

Maybe, in addition to the "are your players properly equipped" question, we can add in another question:

"Coach, have you read this year's rulebook and casebook, and agree that any complaint you have will be based on the correct rule and/or interpretation?"


With the "his feet were moving," I usually get that when I call a PC foul and the defender was set, but then moved legally. My usual response - "So?"

I know. I was informed this week by a coach that taking both hands and pushing a post player in the back so they get displaced by about 2 feet is a "cheap foul".

Gee, I guess I still have a lot to learn after all these years.

I wish they would teach or atleast inform us about this stuff at the beginning of the season. Hmmm.

It's cheap only because apparently a lot of officials are too busy watching the ball handler to notice this activity.

I get at least a few off-ball calls like this every game and I certainly can't be alone there. I enjoy off-ball officiating so much that sometimes (especially after working a lot of 3-whistle and moving back to 2) I forget I have on-ball coverage. Whoops.

What exactly is an expensive foul, coach?

:)

Had a game today where A1 boxes out B2 and moves him back about three feet. TWEET. Push. All 5 of Team A come around me to let me know that what he did was boxing out and it was perfectly legal. They told me that what A1 did was the definition of boxing out in the rulebook. I almost laughed right in their face but rather asked them to bring me the definition in the rulebook next week. Or at least where it says they can move another player 3 feet legal.

They were all dumbfounded.

Today, I had a coach who's also in his rookie year as an official.

He was chirping about every single call. But the one that really made me laugh. His shorter player was trying to rebound the ball, a taller player for the other team reached over her back without contact and grabbed the ball. He went nuts saying we should call "over the back" It earned him a warning.

The T came from me after I made a player control call. The defender had established LGP and ducked to brace herself for the contact. Easy call, as I go to report it he's yelling about it, very loudly, I was in the reporting box and I'm sure the fans could hear, "you can't call a charge, she's moving etc..." so I whacked him, didn't say a word for the rest of the game :)

I've said this before, but maybe the coaches should have to take the same closed book rules test (PT II) we do every year - score a minimum 75% or you can't coach........nah, it'll never fly......

I had one yesterday, where A1 stepped quickly into the paint while the shot was in the air, planted two hands on B1's back and moved her about 2 feet. Called it. Explained it briefly. Three minutes later, same A1 stepped quickly into the paint, did a 180 pivot, planted her behind in B2's back, and moved her about 2 feet. Called it again. Poor A1, is so confused!

SW- you made my night. I had a Y league game tonite (that I played in) and the other team started complaining about me "moving my pivot foot". I am 3 yrs. new at reffing but, was confident that I knew this rule. Unfortunately, I had to defend myself to 2 officials that understood it differently.

Help me understand...did you do this b/c the coach was complaining about the no call? Why wouldn't you wait for a dead ball??

"I blow the ball dead (stopped a would-be layup for his team, mind you) and inform the coach that the rule gives only the three foot parameter."

Thanks
John

The reason he blew it dead is to proove a point to the coach, correct his rule interp, and to make it hurt.

Actual game quotes on a couple of new rules I learned about this week:

1. "Taller more athletic players, cannot enter the space over a shorter non-athletic players to get a rebound."
2. "A screener cannot move irrelevant if there is contact."

My question for you is why in the world did you blow the ball dead during for the first play that you described? Your post is about rules. Under what rule are you allowed to blow the ball dead to explain a rule to a coach. IMO, things like this are what get us in trouble as referees.
The traveling during an inbounds is a common misinterpretation of the rules that is in part the fault of officials and announcers in basketball games. I have seen officials on tv give a traveling signal when the thrower-in violated the 3' restriction. The announcers (regardless) of what signal the official gives, virtually always says that it is traveling out of bounds. The coaches assume that the announcers know the rules and use that during their games (pee-wee, AAU, or HS).

Actually had a BV assistant yelling for a closely guarded call while the other team was bringing up the ball in the backcourt. True, his kid was playing pretty good defense, but I stubbornly kept with my ten count.

Assistant consistently reminded me of my oversight several times during play thereafter. First dead ball opportunity I simply asked if the ball was in the front court or back court - assistant tells me "backcourt, but what does that have to do with anything?" Head coach tells him to "shutup" and smiles at me.

Sometimes it's best to remain silent and leave others to wonder rather than to open your mouth and remove all doubt. Assistant is now "very glad" to see me whenever I have his game. Go figure.

The head coach did what you shoulda done. Never let assistant coaches question you "several times" about anything. They don't have the right to question you <b>one</b> time. Once you gave that assistant your answer to his initial question, that shoulda been the end of it right there.

This was 5th grade boys AAU game, and the coach had essentially earned himself a T by standing up to complain about my no-call and arguing about a rule with me. Frankly, I did him (and the game) a favor by doing it that way. The game went much better from that point.
Whether he believed me or not isn't really relevant either. I essentially told him two things. First, that I'm aware of what's happening and don't need his help. Second, that his opinion of the rules isn't going to have any effect on me.

The reason he blew it dead is to proove a point to the coach, correct his rule interp, and to make it hurt.


Okay, this makes sense at the 5th grade level...not something to practice in a higher level (high school) game. Thanks...

As adamant as he was, it would have likely been a T at the high school level.

I made it as far as the jump ball before the stupidity began on Friday:

Toss goes up, ball tied up by two players of disparate heights. I point at them and tell them its another toss with them in the middle.

Coach: "Why them, it can be anyone I want"
me: "Not according to the rule"
Coach: " You're making that up; its not a rule"
me: "How 'bout a T and then it won't matter?"
Coach: silence

The moment that the whistle was blown is what is referred to as a teachable moment. Yes, the coach learned his lesson. However, there could have been another teachable moment in which you could have explained the ruling to him. If you brought the play up to him during a dead ball or after the game, I'm sure that he would remember what you were talking about.

It doesn't matter that is was a 5th grade AAU game. Don't put the rules aside to explain a rule.

Would you rather I called the T? I didn't put any rules aside. I had an inadvertent whistle and informed the coach of the rule. Like I said, that approach worked for this situation. If I'd have waited any longer, he'd have been on the court and I'd have had to call the T.

It's like training a puppy. You have to rub their nose in it right away, or they won't understand why they're being punished.

[Edited by Snaqwells on Feb 22nd, 2005 at 12:05 PM]

Though your comeback was witty and entertaining, do you think that it was the best thing to say to the coach? I view a comment like this to be stooping down to level of the coach. What do others think? How would other people respond to this comment literally 3 seconds into the game?

In a word, yes. You made the right call by not calling a violation on the throw-in. How the coach responds to this is up to him. If he chooses to get irate and come onto the floor, then he has earned himself a T.
It isn't an inadvertent whistle if it was blown on purpose. So, (IMO) you did put the rules aside, or at least stretched them a whole lot.

If I can prevent the T, I'm going to do it; especially at this level. Like I said, it worked for me. Feel free to call the T here if you wish.

Frustraiting isn't it? Coaches and Fans can say all kinds of stupid crap and if the Ref makes 1 deserved reply that puts them in their place, they get chastised for not taking the high-road.

I know, I'm going to start documenting these comments so someday I will be able to write a book. I'll call the book something clever like; "Stupid things Coaches and Fans say and do".

I've often thought about doing the same thing...inviting an official to one of our practices for a clinic of sorts. I certainly wouldn't expect them to do it for free, so what is a nice way of saying thanks?

I have always taught my players the rules, but also how to play the game. The reason I teach them not to reach is because reaching leads to poor defensive position, leaning forward instead of remaining balanced on the balls of the feet. Reaching also leads to fouls. When you hear coaches yelling "don't reach", don't assume that they think that's an automatic foul; it might just be good coaching.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by JeffW

Quote:

Originally posted by sfriede ... When you hear coaches yelling "don't reach", don't assume that they think that's an automatic foul; it might just be good coaching.

I agree!

Coaches directives to their players are not always judgement of the officiating.

As JeffW mentioned, sometimes when a player is called for "illegal use of hands",
because they "make contact" on the ballhandlers arms, the coach will scold the
out-of-position defender.

I don't mind when a coach tells their kids not to reach. They're right. Reaching is lazy defense; rather matadorial. When they lose credibility is when they start crying to me, "He's reaching. He's reaching!" My first thought is always, "Yep, but he's not fouling."

Though your comeback was witty and entertaining, do you think that it was the best thing to say to the coach? I view a comment like this to be stooping down to level of the coach. What do others think? How would other people respond to this comment literally 3 seconds into the game? [/B][/QUOTE]


...IMO- I view this forum as a way to study, learn from those who have been there and become a better official. I think that questions like these are irrelevant in doing any of that. I guess I'm really looking for something that I can use more so than someone's opinion on something that really doesn't matter.

...IMO- I view this forum as a way to study, learn from those who have been there and become a better official. I think that questions like these are irrelevant in doing any of that. I guess I'm really looking for something that I can use more so than someone's opinion on something that really doesn't matter.

[/B][/QUOTE]

I totally agree. One of the characteristics of a good official is how we manage coaches. How this official managed the coach is not the only way to manage coaches. Instead of threatening him with a T, maybe he could have said, "Coach, you'll have to trust me on this one. This play doesn't happen often [it's only happened to me once in 8 years]. For now, you'll have to trust that I'm right."

What do others think?

I think I'd say something like, "Coach, that is the rule, and I'll strongly advise you not to accuse me again of making stuff up."

Someone else mentioned this but I want to anyway. I would not encourage anyone to do/say this to a coach. What good did it really do? We will be chasing our tail to attempt to get the best of every coach/player/fan. A threat means nothing if it isn't backed up and it also puts your partner out on a limb. That might be going too far in this situation but after informing the coach that you are doing the correct thing by rule there is nothing good that will come of the rest. IMHO

FOOD :D