Injured player midway through second quarter. Player is unconscious and requires EMS. They take away player on a stretcher. There has been roughly a 20 to 30 minute game delay. Team A wants his kids to warm up and Team B says he has no problem with doing that. Referee says you have 3 minutes to warm-up. Warm-up ends and we play the remainder of the second quarter without incident.

I was under the impression that the game continued from the point of interruption and we start. Am I wrong? Just thinking of all the potential bad things that could happen? Player technical for hanging on the room during the warm-up, or you fill in the blank.

What is the proper procedure?

Let them warm up.

Yes let them warm up. Safety first

After just watching a kid get wheeled off the court on a stretcher, it certainly wouldn't hurt to give the kids a few minutes to get their heads back into the game and allow people some time to shift their moods back to the game. Seems like the right thing to do. All you have to do is remind the coaches that the same rules apply as for pre-game warm-ups. If anything, it's a good way to attempt to avoid a problem you might have had if you started the game as soon as the injured kid is wheeled off. Assuming he got hurt during game action, you might have a quick retaliation situation you have to deal with. It still might happen, but with a 3 minute warm-up (or cool down depending on whether tempers have flared) you may avoid a bad situation.

I would have to say no.

I did a game about 3 years ago where a cheerleader fell on her head and we had to wait for an ambulance to remove her from the court. We did not allow any warm ups at that time and we played once she was taken care of. They do not need to shoot baskets in my opinion to get warmed up. I do not find it necessary. Let the game continue and let us all move on from there. That is just my opinion. I really do not see there being a complete right or wrong issue here.

Peace

This is a great reason to give them another couple of minutes to make sure they get revenge out of their head......hopefully.

If BOTH coaches are OK with it, why would you argue? Let them warm up, then start the game up.

The rules only allow for "practice" between halves once the game has started (2-7-4). However, common sense indicates that a warm-up period might be prudent. The referee can allow this using his/her authority (2-3).

I think it would largely depend on the length of delay. 3-5 minutes...unnecesary...NCAA timeouts are nearly that length. 20-30 minutes and I'll let them warmup. I'm not going make my self an easy target of lawsuit if someone pulls a muscle or tears a ligament.

I said I personally do not see a point for it. I do not care whether coaches agree or not. Coaches might agree on a lot of things and I am not going to dictate my decision based on what coaches want. That is why we all get paid the big bucks. We have to make decisions that are based on our own personal judgment. This does not mean I would not allow some type of warm up period, but I just do not see much of a point for doing it.

Peace

Rut,

I don't mean to be a sore boil, but what if one of the coaches threatens you with a report to the state for disregarding player saftey? I would allow a warmup because I would hate to lose my belongings, etc., to a lawsuit that the insurance company won't cover. It's considered gross negligence.

Don't we work for the coaches, kids, fans, and schools? I would think that coach input in this situation is valuable.

sorry but in my opinion.. Rutledge is wrong on this one.
 

Is it just me or does JRutledge not want to let them warm up just so they can all know that he is the boss.

Dude sounds like Inspector Javert from the Les Miserable:
the law is the law, forget about common sense...

"They won't warm up because I said they wont warm up".
"But sir, is there a reason that they will not be allowed to warm up?"
"Because I said so!"

Yes, it is a judgement cal

Im with you, I see no point in it. Also, I really dont think you are opening your self up to a lawsuit for not giving them a warm-up.

This is not a liability issue no more than any other decision we make. There is nothing in the rules that says to do it one way or the other.

What are you going to do if one team does not want the warm up period? I think many of you are assuming that all coaches feel it is necessary and for the same reasons and want to warm up the same way. I simply said that I do not see a major reason for shooting baskets as a warm up requirement. It also depends on how long the trainers/ambulance had to tend to the injury. There is nothing that says that while the injury is taking place that the teams could not be stretching or warming up in other ways. You do not have to give players times to shoot baskets to be warm. I have done many football games that had delays based on injury and weather and that did not mean the players went out and did kicking drills to warm up. They stretched on the field as a team in one corner. Even then not all coaches agree with what they should do and how it should be done. In a perfect world all coaches and players agree. In the real world they do not agree for very different reasons. Some teams want to get out their and try to maintain their momentum, what is left of it. Some teams might not want the other team to practice getting their shot back. The only people here are assuming what coaches are going to want are a bunch of officials that seem to not live in a world where things do not go so perfect. At the end of the day that is our decision as referees to decide what to do. It is not the choice of the coaches. Sometimes the AD might have a say that goes completely against what the coaches want.

If you are in constant fear of being sued, then get out of officiating. Seriously get out right now. Even if you allow a warm up period, someone could say you did not give them enough time to their satisfaction. You might give the teams 3 minutes and one coach wanted 10. You are never going to make everyone happy or do everything that others will agree with. I can tell you from my Baseball, Football and Basketball experience, there are situations that not everyone can agree on. Just this past Football season in my first round playoff game, the coaches could not agree one what they wanted to do as a warm-up period for weather delays. One coach had one thing in mind. The other coach had another issue. Guess who made the final decision?

Peace

This is really irrelevant. The original post said both coaches did agree to a warm-up period. How many different ways are there for basketball teams to warm up? The original post also mentioned a 20-30 minute delay for getting the injured player off the court. So then why would you disallow it?

What if a player gets hurt during the warmups that you allowed? :-)

I have not heard of any officials in my area getting sued. Is this a real issue and how often does it happen? I try to do things right not out of fear of a lawsuit but because I am a basketball purist.

What if someone runs into the gym and shoots all the players? Come on, why blow this out of proportion? Someone got hurt badly enough during the game to require a stretcher and an ambulance. It took 30 minutes to get him off the court. The players and fans have to be a little shaken up. As long as the coaches agree, let them warm up for 3 minutes to get their minds back into the game. It has nothing to do with liability. It's common sense.

[Edited by Smitty on Feb 15th, 2005 at 12:07 PM]

my two pennies here

Let common sense prevail.
Give them their three minutes. Most teams use three minutes at half to warm up... They have been out 7 minutes. I'd rather delay a game for three more minutes than risk anything that could occur without the warm-up.

I ve done it for football and would do it for basketball.
Not only is there the physical but the mental here as has been mentioned

Actually it is very relevant. In the original post the coaches did not say how long (in the post) and to what extent the warm up should take place.

I also said that I do not see a point for the warm up, because if they have been sitting around for the last 20-30 minutes not anticipating the game is going to start, then I am not sure it is needed that much.

The question was asked because the person making the post was unsure. If you are working in your game, do whatever you want to do. I keep telling many of you that is your choice. But please do not make it seem like everything is going to go smoothly and everyone is going to just agree whether to have a warm up period or not. You also have to factor in what the rules states (which there are no specific rules to my knowledge on this issue), what your state says, and what might work the best for the specific situation.

Peace

I'm just being a smart arse, I'd probably give them a couple of minutes to get the blood pumping, it's no big deal.

My question still stands; are these frivolous law-suits really that prevalent? Many keep mentioning them and I don't want to be niave to this.

djskinn,

I checked your profile and it did not say where you are from. Please advise. The reason I am asking is this exact situation (of a player being seriously injured) occurred in Bettendorf, IA (I live in Davenport). The injured player was from the Home team and luckily was able to go home that night. I spoke to the Visiting team coach the next day (our kids played each other in youth game), and he stated that the player was unconcious, eyes rolled back, and in seizures. They removed both teams and officials from the court until they had removed the player by ambulance.

In regards to Rut's comments that there are other places to warmup, it is really hard to warm up in a locker room.

I stretch in the locker room all the time. You do not need to shoot baskets to warm up. But then again, remember this discussion when a coach does not like the decision you make on the court. You would be surprised with what they come up with.

Peace

[/B][/QUOTE]

But then again, remember this discussion when a coach does not like the decision you make on the court. You would be surprised with what they come up with.

Peace [/B][/QUOTE]

Rut, while I do coach a 5th grade team, I also officiate football. Just because somebody makes a comment, that you do not agree with does not mean you get to make offhand comments. I think overall, you would be surprised at the fact that in coaching 30 games this year I have only been given the stop sign once. Not all coaches are ignorant of the rules or proper procedures. Around here our varsity teams will take the floor with 15+ players on the bench. Not all schools have adequate locker room space for them to properly stretch. Remember, 15 people take up a lot more space than 2 - 3.

Ummm Rut,

You and your partner(s) stretching in a locker room is nothing compared to a team stretching in a locker room. I used to be a high school coach, and the officials had more room to stretch in their room than my boys did in the locker room. The comparision is like apples and oranges.

I did not make my comments because you are a coach or not. I simply stated that what you might consider warming up, another coach might not see as warming up. At least when this thread started my comments were geared towards getting basketballs out and shooting. But during that delay there is nothing that states players cannot stretch or loosen up to get ready to play. They can do that in the locker room or on the floor. It would depend on where the injury was and if the players were in a position to interfere with the handling of that injury. There are a lot of factors to this. I could even see a suspension of the game depending on the nature of the injury and the time it takes to deal with the injury.

Peace

Actually you are taking the comments a little too seriously. My point is that you do not need the entire floor to lossen up or locker room.

Also all facilities are not the same. So there are cases where a locker room is big enough to do that. Again, you have to deal with what the coaches might think is adaquete for them. What they might think is OK, you might have a problem with. Just a fact of life. And was something I had to deal with in our playoff game this past football season.

Peace

Actually the proper way to warm up is to do game-type movements at half-speed, THEN stretch, and then do full speed.

Cold muscles SHOULD NOT be stretched.

IAUMP,

I officiate out of Charlotte, NC. Our player was having a seizure after a blocking call, first time I had that happen to me as an official. By the way, this game occurred in Charlotte as well.

This comes back to my point. I am not a trainer or a doctor and in most cases neither are the coaches. So either way I have to make a decision that is best for the game. Until there is a specific rule created to take this issue on, we are going to do what we feel is best. Remember, every official in the country or your area is not reading this board. Neither are the coaches reading this either. This is a great discussion, but not everyone is going to come to the same conclusion on this. No matter what they say. No matter what I say.

Peace

I guess what bothers me about your response
 

Is sort of an arrogant tone, like the management of the game is not a cooperative... win-win situation, it is a dictatorship.

Clearly there are times (almost always, actually)when decisions must be rendered by an official... quickly and decisively.. and not wait for input. But in this case, if both coaches and (presumably) game management are on the same page, why go against the rest of the team that you rely on to help you administer a smooth game?

I am still waiting for a logical answer as to why you wouldn't allow it. You just say it is a judgement call, and you would judge "no". I am interested in the REASONS why you would render that judgement. You did say you don't think the kids need it, but the coaches, who know their kids better than you think they do, in this matter I believe their judgement may be more valid than yours.

In the end you are correct that it is a judgement call, but I am just wondering WHY you would go against both coaches and (presumably) game management.

read your own tag-line... you may be correct, but not right.

I'm going to agree with Rut on this.

While I would likely give a short warm-up period, there certainly is no requirement to do so, and it is completely at the discretion of the referee.

As to lawsuits, it's the players' responsibility to be prepared to play - not mine.

While I agree that this is at the official's discretion, I can't possibly see anything to be gained by refusing the request. It's an obviously extra-ordinary circumstance. I'd like to see some reasons for refusing this, other than "because it's my call."

rotationslim,

When you work your games you can do what you want to. When I work my games I can do what I want to. That is what it boils down to. I do not have to trust your opinion and you do not have to trust mine. That is the reason. No one has told me anything but their opinion. No rule, just opinion. No reason other than what they personally think is best and no rule to back it up. If that is not good enough for you, so be it. This has nothing to do with authority or needing to be in authority. I do not need a situation to know what my role is as an official.

Peace

Kinda funny we have this discussion and last night had VG falling to the floor, yadda yadda yadda, she stays down and coach says she's had back probs. EMS takes her out on a stretcher. All this takes 25 minutes and we give a 3 minute warmup. Both Coaches, AD, Asst Principle and both of us Officials thought it was a good idea. In this situation, it would have seemed unsportsmanlike on the officials to say no to warmup.

Again
 

Rut, we are just pressing you for your reason for countering what the rest of the adults responsible for a smooth game, coaches, (presumably) game management to rule "no warmup".

No one has doubted your authority to deny the warmup.
It has been established that rules allow a referee to rule either way on this.

So the question is this, what is your REASON for going against the coaches on this matter?

Would you be concerned about the game finishing on time?
Would you not want the fans to be bored watching them warmup?
Would you be concerned that both teams warming up would somehow give one team a competitive advantage?

Your lack of any logical reason leaves me thinking you would say "NO" just because you can. That kind of arrogance, if this is in fact the reason, leads to some of the worst kind of officiating.

Re: Again
 

As we used to say when I was in college, "Save the drama for your mama."

Peace

I get it...
 

It's your game; not the players, and you're the boss and don't have to justify anything to anybody because you wear a striped shirt.

It is attitude like that that gives refs a bad rap.

Actually you never did.
 

rotationslim,

I have tried to keep this based on the issue, but I have to take the gloves off a bit. First of all you do not know me. You know nothing about me. The only thing you know about me is what I decide to tell you. This for the record is really not that much. You do not know anything about my ability as an official, nor do you understand the kind of respect I have in my area with officials and coaches that I come in contact with.

You sound like an official that is influenced by whatever a coach or player wants. So if the coach wants you to not call certain things do you do it? Remember your logic is that you do what the coaches want you to do, without any rule any other consideration. I have been working for a long time, mostly at the varsity level. I have almost never had both coaches and AD all agree on everything that takes place. I have been in situations where coaches agree, but the AD (or both ADs) has a different opinion. This past spring during the baseball season, my regional was the very last one to play because the two schools could not agree when to restart the championship game. This is not much of a different situation. I have seen coaches complain about all kinds of things over the years and the officials have to decide what to do in the end. That is why we are paid and what the rules allow. If you think there needs to be a warm-up, what time is it acceptable and what is not acceptable. If you have a 10 minute delay (for whatever reason) do you advocate a warm-up? Does that time change when you have 12 minutes of delay? What about 16 minutes?

All I stated is that I personally do not see a point for a warm up period. Basketball is not football where collisions are a regular part of the sport and playing in the elements is also a factor. Basketball is played in a controlled environment. I do not see multiple players cramping up in basketball games where we have to stop the game for several minutes before we can play. That happens all the time in football and we easily might delay the game for 15 to 20 minutes for a game and for some reason we do not give a "special warm-up period" when an injury is taken care of. But in your logic, the only way players can "get ready to play" is by shooting baskets and running drills to get ready to play. I know that when halftime ends it is not uncommon for teams to not even shoot baskets and come out right before the second half starts. All I said is I did not see a point for it. That does not mean I could not be convinced. That does not mean a situation could not change my opinion. I just stated I do not see a point for it. Having been in that situation before (for some reason I have not heard you say anything about your experience with this kind of situation :rolleyes:). In my situation there was no outcry for a warm up period. If anything the coaches wanted to start the game up as soon as possible. Now maybe if we are waiting for an hour or everyone had to go outside for a fire alarm, then that would change things. But remember we are talking about an injury, not those other kinds of situations.

The bottom line is you do not know me. Don't you dare tell me what I think about the game and my job as an official. You probably could not hold my jock on the basketball court and probably do not have the respect I have earned working games over the years. I am not paid to make everyone happy, none of us are. Our job is to make decisions that many times might be unpopular or when everyone cannot agree on. Every situation does not come in a nice cardboard box with a ribbon on it. Sorry, but that just is not the real world. But then again, you seem to have no since of what that means.

Peace

I have tried to keep this based on the issue, but I have to take the gloves off a bit. First of all you do not know me. You know nothing about me. The only thing you know about me is what I decide to tell you. This for the record is really not that much.

WRONG, YOU CHOOSE TO TELL US MORE ABOUT YOU THAN ALMOST ANY OTHER POSTER. YOU HAVE THE LONGEST SIGNATURE ON THIS BOARD, I AM OBVIOUSLY SUPPOSED TO BE IMPRESSED WITH ALL YOUR AFFILIATIONS, ETC.

You do not know anything about my ability as an official, nor do you understand the kind of respect I have in my area with officials and coaches that I come in contact with.

PERHAPS YOU DO, BUT PERHAPS THE LEVEL OF RESPECT THAT IS AFFORDED YOU HAS GONE TO YOUR HEAD, AND NOW BELIEVE YOU ARE KING OF THE GYM, AND YOU WORD IS GOD'S WORD AND ABOVE REPROACH. YOU STILL HAVE GIVEN NO REASON FOR YOUR DECISION TO RULE THE WAY YOU DID. STILL NOT A THREAD OF LOGIC IN WHAT YOU SAY OTHER THAN... "BECAUSE I SAID SO"

You sound like an official that is influenced by whatever a coach or player wants.

IF A COACH WANTS SOMETHING THAT IS AGAINST THE RULES... OR IN MY JUDGEMENT WILL GIVE HIM UNFAIR COMPETITIVE ADVANTAGE, NO ABSOLUTELY NOT. IF BOTH COACHES (AND PRESUMABLY GAME MANAGEMENT) WANT SOMETHING THAT IS MUTUALLY BENEFICIAL TO BOTH TEAMS AND THE GAME IN GENERAL, YES I WOULD ABSOLUTELY TAKE INTO ACCOUNT WHAT THE COACHES ASK FOR, AS LONG AS IT IS WITHIN THE RULES.

So if the coach wants you to not call certain things do you do it?

THATS JUST SILLY AND COMPLETELY IRRELEVANT TO THIS, WE ARE TALKING ABOUT A JUDGEMENT CALL ON SOMETHING THAT IS NOT COVERED IN RULES.

Remember your logic is that you do what the coaches want you to do, without any rule any other consideration.

IF THE GYM WAS EXTRA NOISY, AND FOR WHATEVER REASON I WAS NOT GETTING MUCH VOLUME OUT OF MY WHISTLE, AND A COACH RESPECTFULLY ASKS ME TO BLOW IT A LITTLE LOUDER SO HIS PLAYERS COULD HEAR, I WOULD BE HAPPY TO TRY TO ACCOMADATE. THIS IS NO DIFFERENT. YOU DEMAND RESPECT FROM COACHES AND PLAYERS, IT IS NOT UNREASONABLE TO RETURN THE RESPECT AND HONOR BENIGN REQUESTS THAT ARE FOR THE GOOD OF BOTH TEAMS.

I have been working for a long time, mostly at the varsity level. I have almost never had both coaches and AD all agree on everything that takes place. I have been in situations where coaches agree, but the AD (or both ADs) has a different opinion. This past spring during the baseball season, my regional was the very last one to play because the two schools could not agree when to restart the championship game. This is not much of a different situation.

THIS IS A COMPLETELY DIFFERENT SITUATION, THAT ONE IS CONTROVERSIAL, THIS ONE IS COMPLETELY BENIGN, AND ONLY BECOMES CONTROVERSIAL WHEN A REFEREE WOULD REFUSE TO AFFORD A LITTLE RESPECT TO THE COACHES AND PLAYERS AND ALLOW THEM 5 MINUTES TO WARM UP.

I have seen coaches complain about all kinds of things over the years and the officials have to decide what to do in the end. That is why we are paid and what the rules allow. If you think there needs to be a warm-up, what time is it acceptable and what is not acceptable. If you have a 10 minute delay (for whatever reason) do you advocate a warm-up? Does that time change when you have 12 minutes of delay? What about 16 minutes?

I AM NOT TALKING ABOUT SETTING A POLICY, OR A GUIDELINE, WHICH IS WHAT YOU ARE TALKING ABOUT, I AM TALKING ABOUT THIS ONE INCIDENT, ONE WHERE IT MAKES PERFECT SENSE TO ALLOW THE WARMUP, AND YOU STILL HAVE YET TO BRING UP EVEN ONE SINGLE SOLITARY REASON WHY IT MAKES SENSE TO DENY THE REQUEST OTHER THAN... "BECAUSE I SAID SO". I USE THAT ON MY KIDS ALL THE TIME... IT DOESN'T GO OVER VERY WELL.

All I stated is that I personally do not see a point for a warm up period. Basketball is not football where collisions are a regular part of the sport and playing in the elements is also a factor. Basketball is played in a controlled environment. I do not see multiple players cramping up in basketball games where we have to stop the game for several minutes before we can play. That happens all the time in football and we easily might delay the game for 15 to 20 minutes for a game and for some reason we do not give a "special warm-up period" when an injury is taken care of. But in your logic, the only way players can "get ready to play" is by shooting baskets and running drills to get ready to play. I know that when halftime ends it is not uncommon for teams to not even shoot baskets and come out right before the second half starts. All I said is I did not see a point for it. That does not mean I could not be convinced. That does not mean a situation could not change my opinion. I just stated I do not see a point for it. Having been in that situation before (for some reason I have not heard you say anything about your experience with this kind of situation :rolleyes. In my situation there was no outcry for a warm up period. If anything the coaches wanted to start the game up as soon as possible. Now maybe if we are waiting for an hour or everyone had to go outside for a fire alarm, then that would change things. But remember we are talking about an injury, not those other kinds of situations.

I HAVE NOT HAD THIS KIND OF GAME SITUATION. BUT SAYING I DON'T HAVE THE RIGHT TO COMMENT ON IT BECUASE I HAVE NOT BEEN IN THE SITUATION IS LIKE SAYING YOU SHOULD NOT BE ALLOWED TO BE A VARSITY REFEREE IF YOU DID NOT PLAY VARSITY BALL.

The bottom line is you do not know me.

CORRECT, AND I HAVE ONLY COMMENTED ON WHAT SEEMS LIKE AN ARROGANT ATTITUDE TOWARDS THE GAME THAT I HAVE SEEN EXHIBITED IN YOUR POSTS ON THIS TOPIC. YOU MAY BE MOTHER TERESA FOR ALL I KNOW.. BUT IN THIS OPEN AND HONEST EXCHANGE OF IDEAS.. I FEEL YOU COME OFF AS ARROGANT... BUT YOU HAVE YET TO PUT FORTH ANY GOOD REASONS FOR YOUR POINT OF VIEW OTHER THAN... "BECAUSE I SAID SO, AND I HAVE BEEN AROUND HERE A LONG TIME AND REFFED A LOT OF GAMES"

Don't you dare tell me what I think about the game and my job as an official.

NO COMMENT ON ANY OF THAT, JUST AN ARROGANT TONE TO THIS POST.

You probably could not hold my jock on the basketball court and probably do not have the respect I have earned working games over the years.

LIKELY

I am not paid to make everyone happy, none of us are. Our job is to make decisions that many times might be unpopular or when everyone cannot agree on.

BUT IN THIS CASE EVERYONE DID AGREE... THATS WHY YOUR DECISION SO PUZZLES ME.

Every situation does not come in a nice cardboard box with a ribbon on it. Sorry, but that just is not the real world. But then again, you seem to have no since of what that means.

NOT SURE WHAT THAT LAST LINE MEANS.

One man's arrogance is another man's confidence. I know I'm sticking my neck out here, but I'm going to have to agree with JRut. There is nothing in the rules that allows or demands a warm-up period after a delay. I believe that's his rational. So as an official, we must be confident in our rules knowledge, and get the game going as soon as possible. Remember, he did say he could be convinced otherwise, so I don't think he's opposed to it ever happening, just not as a regular occurance. We certainly wouldn't allow a warm-up period for the guy that comes in at the end of the game - after all, he's been sitting there for a longer time doing nothing. I sure hope we aren't out there telling a team that they HAVE to warm up at the end of halftime so we don't get sued. Don't get caught up in non game-related issues. We need to have the confidence to run the game as it was intended.

1) There is nothing in the rules that forbids a warm-up period after a delay either. That's up to the official's judgement. "Confidence in rules knowledge" applies equally well to both sides of this argument.

2) Confidence to run the game as <b>who</b> intended? As <b>you</b> intended? Rotationslim's opinion is just as valid as your's and Rut's on this one. You're representing your opinion as being fact. It isn't. Neither can Rut's or rotationslim's opinion be considered as fact either. All of you are just arguing your own opinions. It's simply up to the official on the spot to make the decision as best as he can. No more- no less.

I'm not trying to say my opinion is fact. But my opinion is it is better if you can back up your decision with a specific rule, case, state interp, etc. What do you tell a coach who says "I'm ready to play now" while the other team wants a warm-up? If we stay away from trying to do things that aren't included in the rules, we keep ourselves out of unnecessary trouble. If one coach wants a warm-up, and the other doesn't care, go for it. It's common sense. It's just one of those non game-related issues that are best left alone, if possible.

As far as running the game as it is intended, I guess I'm talking about the rules committee of whatever level you are in. If they had intended for there to be a warm-up period after a delay, there would be some mention of it in the rules. If we are talking about what I intend for the game, I would get rid of those damn baggy shorts that go below the knees...:)

I feel bad I condoned and contributed to a flame war, I appologize to all, while it is a common internet practice, it is beneath this group.

As the old (politically incorrect) saying goes, getting to an argument on the internet @@@@@@

[Edited by mick on Feb 16th, 2005 at 08:41 PM]

I'm not trying to say my opinion is fact. But my opinion is it is better if you can back up your decision with a specific rule, case, state interp, etc.
[/B][/QUOTE]I agree with that. The problem is that you <b>can't</b> back up your decision in this particular situation, whatever it might be, with a specific rule, case, state interp, etc. Rut can't back up his decision by rule either. That doesn't make either of you wrong.It makes both of you right.

See what I'm getting at?

The apology is good, but that second paragraph is some deep stuff to step into! I'd drop it fast, if I were you.

Yes I can. Rule 2-3 pretty much cover it for me. There is no guideline that covers when to have warm-up period or when not to have a warm-up period. This is in the hands of the Referee on the game. And that is really my point. If you are working the game, it is up to you to decide what is best. If the coaches agree, you still have to decide how long of a warm-up time. If one coach does not want a warm-up period, then you still have to make a decision. This is how it works.

Peace

M&M mentioned it but nobody else has said much about the fact that if someone gets into the game at the end of the second quarter/first half they have probably been sitting for 20 minutes or more. They will not get a warmup so I don't see why the amount of delay is a reason for the teams to warm up. That is not to say I wouldn't allow it because I really don't give a hoot while reading it on this board. I guess I would have to be in the situation to make the call. It seems to me that certain comments are made as if they are absolutes. I think the error lies in saying/implying something would be done a certain way no matter what. I think JRut has mentioned that he might be convinced to allow the warm up. To me that means his opinion isn't an absolute and there is nothing wrong with that.